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Where do suicide victims go heaven or hell
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Posted by: jpatterson126
I was brought up in southern baptist church and was always taught that when a person commits suicide they would go to hell because they don't have the chance to ask for forgiveness. Well, in adulthood I can not find any scripture to support this claim. Anyone know of any. Alot of christian people with serious mental illness committ suicide being out of their minds. I am just very curious about this. Any opinion is apreciated.
Posted by: therevbobjank
Would God condem a person for having cancer? Would God send someone to hell for having heart disease? A mental disorder is no different from any other disease. The person that takes their own life, in most cases is suffering from some sort of mental disorder. How can God condem His child that has a mental condition.
I believe in some cases, when a person takes their own life they are destined for hell. In the case of a person committing a crime, and chooses death over jail..That would be between God and that individual. But when a person is suffering from depression, or any other mental disease, No! How could a right a just God condem that person to hell?
The problem with a lot of religions, is they choke up on their own doctrine, and stray from God's word.
By the way, I too was brought up Southern Baptist.
Posted by: Soteria777
Annointed Warrior:
I have no idea who you are, if you're male or female, age, location or anything and it doesn't matter really. But what I DO see from these posts IS a mighty warrior for God, full of the Holy Ghost and power!! I have been SO blessed by your posts and your videos!! WOWZA!!!
I pray God will annoint you even MORE than He already has and that you'll continue to be a force to be reckoned with for the LORD!!!!!
Posted by: jedijeb
Well I guess you can count one more southern baptist thoughts on this topic. I was taught that salvation can't be taken away from me by Satan or myself. So if I committed suicide I would still go to heaven. If I were lost then I would go to hell. Some try to say that because you can't repent of the sin you would goto hell, but when Jesus died for our sins they were all in the future and when I accepted Him as my Savior I was forgiven for all the sins I committed, and since Jesus knows my life from beginning to end that means all of them past present and future. Now not repenting does have an effect on our relationship with God that is why it is so important to confess our sins and ask forgivenness for them when we committ them. It is like when a child does something that hurts their parents, no matter how badly the relationship between a parent and child is damaged, they can not become a non-child of those parents. The parent child relationship is eternal and when we become children of God ( when we are saved) it is an eternal relationship. As the Bible says " noone can take us out of His hands" ( sorry at work and cant look up the exact verses).
If this eternal relationship wasn't true then we would spend our whole life in sin because Jesus said for us not to worry, and if I thought that at any time I could do something that would make me unsaved I know I would be worried all the time and trying to make sure I didn't do something bad without asking forgivness for would keep me from doing the things of God that I should do. In the situation with suicide I see satan often winning on two fronts, he convinces the one to end his life, and then throws doubts into the ones left behind to hinder their lives. We don't have to let him win though, we just have to know the truth, and as it says, the truth will set us free. Free of the worry and doubt that Satan so often uses against us. If you are saved, look to God and know that He is your Father and noone can change that.
Posted by: JG
SUICIDE IS ONE OF THOSE HEART BREAKING TOPICS.
THE WORD IS VERY CLEAR, AS LONG AS YOU HAVE BREATH YOU CAN BE FORGIVEN. BUT IF YOU DIE IN THE SIN GOD IS TO HOLY TO TOUCH IT.
YOUR SIN MUST BE COVERED BY THE BLOOD.
AND THE ONLY WAY TO COVER YOUR SIN IS TO CONFESS IT.
We make note of what the Bible says about Judas Iscariot.
1. John 13:26-27 Satan entered into him.
2. Matthew 26:47-49 He betrayed Jesus.
3. Matthew 27:3 He repented of his betrayal of Jesus.
4. Matthew 27:5 Judas HANGED himself. (Committed Suicide)
ACS 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which
Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
JOH 12:4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], which should betray him, 12:5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
LUK 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
ACS 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
I Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? 17 If any one destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you are.
I would point out the ten commandments. Commandment six, in Exodus 20:13, of the KJB says "Thou shalt not kill." Now the Hebrew word translated here as KILL has a meaning of Murder, and always indicates intentional slaying. This is shown in Green's Literal Translation of the Bible which is a word for word translation of both the Hebrew and Greek. Green translates the Hebrew word as Murder, page 195. Also the Lexicon standard, the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon gives the translation for this word as Murder, on page 953B, Strong's number 7523. Now this is confirmed by Jesus Christ Himself when he quoted the commandments to the rich man who asked what he must do to have eternal life. (Matt. 19:16-18) Jesus answered him in verse 18 "He saith unto him, which Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, . . . ". We can see by this that Any Murder is a sin against God's commandments to us.
In Revelation 21:8 there is a list of the sins which will definitely place one in the fires of Hell, and it says "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, AND MURDERERS, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
If one REPENTS of any of these sins and all other sins, then Jesus Christ will forgive them, and those forgiven will enter heaven and have eternal life with God.
But we are told here that if we murder anyone, AND DO NOT REPENT of the sin of murder, that we will go to hell.
EZE 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 18:26 When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 18:27 Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
The Bible tells us in Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death.
1JO 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
WE MUST CONFESS TO BE FORGIVEN
HEB 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
ROM 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
GOD HAS NOT FORGIVEN SINS OF THE FUTURE BUT SIN OF THE PAST.
YOU MUST CONFESS TO BE FORGIVEN
PLEASE CLICK ON THIS LINK
http://www.annointed.net/Community/...36915#post36915
IT WILL ALSO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND THE JUSTICE OF GOD.
Posted by: jedijeb
I was always taught that you can not lose your salvation. Because if I sin today and without asking forgivenness before I die I would not go to heaven then as soon as I commit that sin I am lost forever, mainly because of this passage:
Heb 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
It would say that if you were saved once then lost that salvation you can not be saved again. The verse I couldn't recall before was this one:
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.
From what I have always been taught this means that not even I can take myself out of God's hand once I am in it. This does not set me at liberty to sin at will, for with the freedom Christ has given me comes responsibility. I confess my sins when I commit them and seek a close walk with Jesus in everything I do. I know this is one of those disputed topics but this is what I believe.
Posted by: Tiff
I think these are one of those situations that we must simply Trust God. Only He knows the state of the person and only He knows the relationship between Him and them.
I see both sides of the argument. I tend to feel that once I was saved, I was saved from my sin, I was no longer destined for His Wrath. My sin is forgiven. I know I probably have sin that I dont even really relize.. Will I go to hell because I dont confess them? No I will not. I might add that I do try to be sure I confess sin and I pray that Im shown sin in my life as to not let it fester unknowning. By Gods grace Im saved from sin. Not just some of my sins but sin. I dont recall any conditions on this.. either past or future but what I think onthe matter really means little. Its what goes on between that heart and God.
Tiff
Posted by: quickdraw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tiff
I think these are one of those situations that we must simply Trust God. Only He knows the state of the person and only He knows the relationship between Him and them.
I see both sides of the argument. I tend to feel that once I was saved, I was saved from my sin, I was no longer destined for His Wrath. My sin is forgiven. I know I probably have sin that I dont even really relize.. Will I go to hell because I dont confess them? No I will not. I might add that I do try to be sure I confess sin and I pray that Im shown sin in my life as to not let it fester unknowning. By Gods grace Im saved from sin. Not just some of my sins but sin. I dont recall any conditions on this.. either past or future but what I think onthe matter really means little. Its what goes on between that heart and God.
Tiff
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My life has been touched by this spirit since I can remember, I was suicidal from very young, and by the GRACE OF GOD, I didn't die in one of my attempts!! My first husband committed suicide when my girls were 7 and 11yrs, and then a very dear friend lost her best CHRISTIAN friend to suicide, (she had been an incredible servant of the Lord and been in a very controlling, cruel marriage), then my brother in law did it a few years ago!!
I have asked the Lord about this! And what the Spirit has led me to believe is that SUICIDE IS A SIN, BUT HIS PEOPLE PERISH THRU LACK OF KNOWLEDGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is in a pardonable sin, not unforgivable!!!!!!! It is a sin, but there are many other sins!!
God has allowed, even caused the majority of people who live in this world to be SPIRITUALLY BLINDED, AND YET THEY PERISH FOR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE!!
GOOD CHRISTIANS, with total servant hearts, get burnt out, depressed and commit suicide!!
I believe that the second death is the important one!!! GOD IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN DECIDE THIS!! ALL will have a chance to stand before the Throne and KNOWINGLY CHOOSE, WITH THEIR SPIRITUAL EYES OPENED BY GOD, GOD'S GRACE EXTENDED TO EVERY ONE OF THEM!! WE WILL ALL SEE "I AM!!!!!!" and they won't be choosing with spiritual blinders on, anyone who knowingly choose evil then, will go to hell, SECOND DEATH!!
I only survived the suicide attempts because of God's grace, nothing I did myself, and now I get to enjoy the peace which passeth all understanding, and I know ALL WILL BOW THEIR KNEES TO CHRIST WHEN THEY HAVE THEIR SPIRITUAL EYES OPENED, WHO COULD NOT!!! THE ONLY ONES WHO WON'T ARE SATAN AND HIS DEMONS, AND THEY ARE THE ONES WHO OUR FATHER CREATED HELL FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE, NOT FOR HIS PRECIOUS CHILDREN!!
What do you think? I KNOW it's not what most teach, but I believe it's what the Spirit has shown me in answer to my question about those who have succumbed to the pain and the lies of the enemy, AND PERISHED THRU LACK OF KNOWLEDGE!!
Forever His,
Sharon
Posted by: JG
You said: "I was always taught that you can not lose your salvation. Because if I sin today and without asking forgivenness before I die I would not go to heaven then as soon as I commit that sin I am lost forever, mainly because of this passage:"
you used Hebrews 6 but please look at the grammar. The falling away here is in the ariost tense which means he wants to fall away in sin not be closer to Jesus.
Heb 6:6 and then fell away (fall away and keep falling) (inother words it says the same thing in Psa 66:17 (if they respect the sin in their heart more than God.) or Isa 59 (your sins make a seperation between you and your God) (the person who was saved as a youth but now continues to live in adultery will not go to Heaven Rev 21), it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Now let's please consider the rest of Hebrews
HEB 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden (and keeps stepping on Jesus) under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, (this means he was saved but now he is not saved) an unholy thing, and hath done (keeps doing) despite unto the Spirit of grace? 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
I am sorry to dissapoint you but the weight of scriputre is against being in sin and in God at the same time.
Please read all of these verses. Eze puts it best, as long as you have breath you can go to heaven. Remember God does not forgive the sins of the future but the sins of the past: therefore you must confess. ROM 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood,
to declare his righteousness
for the remission of sins that are past,
through the forbearance of God;
Eternal Security is it of God Page
EXO 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. (Remember your name had to be in the book to have it taken out)
DEU 29:19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven..
"Eternal Security" is also known as "once saved always saved," or "perseverance of the saints." In other words, once someone accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior, there is nothing that he or she can do to separate himself/herself from God, and they will always be saved. This is a false doctrine. The following passages show, without any doubt, that those who believe in Christ can fall away if they do not practice righteousness.
Bible texts that refute "eternal security" Bible Text | Description Of Blood Bought Believer | Description Of Sin | Description Of Believer After Sin | | Ezekiel 3:20; 18:24-26 | righteous | turns away, commits iniquity | die in sin | EZE 3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. EZE 18:24 ¶ But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 18:25 ¶ Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?18:26 When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. | | Matthew 25:1-13 | took lamps and went to meet Christ | 5 were foolish | "I do not know you" | | Matthew 25:14-30 | Christ's own slaves | hid talent | wicked lazy, cast into outer darkness, weep & gnash | | Luke 8:13 | receive word with joy, believe | temptation, persecution | fall away | | LUK 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. | | Luke 9:62 | put hands to plow of kingdom | looked back to former life | not fit for kingdom | | LUK 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. | | Luke 12:42-48 | steward in charge of Christ's servants | beat slaves, drunkenness | cut in pieces, assign with unbelievers | | John 15:1-6 | branches | does not abide | thrown away, dried up, burnt | | JOH 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. | | Acts 4:32;5:1-11 | of those who believed | lied to Holy Spirit | God struck dead | | Acts 8:9-24 | Simon the sorcerer believed, baptized, received HS | offered money | heart not right, wickedness, gall of bitterness, bond of iniquity | | Acts 20:17,28-30 | elders, shepherds of church | false doctrine | drawn away | | Romans 11:13-23 | wild olive, grafted in v17, stand by faith V20 | unbelief, not continue V20,22 | not spared, cut off V21-22 | | ROM 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: ROM 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. ROM 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. ROM 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. | | 1 Corinthians 9:26-27 | Apostle Paul, preached to others | body not slave | Paul disqualified | | 1 Corinthians 10:1-12 | standing (feel they are saved) V12 | immorality, crave evil, grumble, | fall V12 | | Galatians 2:11-14 | Apostle Peter | false doctrine, hypocrisy | Literal Greek "stood condemned" V11 | | Galatians 5:4 | severed & fallen indicates previously joined and standing | seeking to keep OT | severed from Christ, fallen from grace | | GAL 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. | | Galatians 6:1 | restore indicates once saved | caught in trespass | needed to be restored | | GAL 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. | | 1 Timothy 1:18-20 | Hymenaeus, Alexander: shipwreck indicates they once sailed good. | rejected faith and good conscience, blasphemed | their personal faith shipwrecked, delivered to Satan | | 1 Timothy 4:1 | fall away indicates once saved | false doctrine | fall away from faith | | 1TI 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; | | 1 Timothy 5:8 | passage addressed to Christians | doesn't provide for family | denied faith, worse than unbeliever | | 1TI 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. | | 1 Timothy 6:10 | passage addressed to Christians | love of money | wandered from faith, pierced selves with pangs | | 1TI 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. | | 2 Timothy 2:16-18 | Hymenaeus and Philetus: gone astray indicates once correct | False doctrine: resurrection past | gone astray, upset other's faith as well | | Hebrews 3:12 | brethren | evil, unbelieving | fall away from God | | HEB 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. | | Hebrews 4:1-2,11 | brethren, addressed to Christians | unbelief, disobey | short of God's rest, fall | | Hebrews 6:4-8 | once enlightened, tasted heavenly gift, partakers of HS, Bible & powers to come, renew indicates restore to former cleanness | sin | fallen away, can't renew, crucified Christ again and put in open shame | | Hebrews 10:26-31 | received knowledge of truth. no longer remains indicates they once had forgiveness | sinning willfully | no forgiveness of sin, fearful judgment | | Hebrews 10:38-39 | God's righteous, Christians | shrinks back | God has no pleasure in him, destruction | | James 5:19-20 | brethren, Christians | strays from truth, sin | soul will die in sins, sinner | | JAM 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; JAM 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. | | 1 Peter 5:8 | Christians | sin | devoured by devil | | 1PE 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: | | 2 Peter 2:1 | Christians, "among you" had been bought by Christ | false prophets | swift destruction | | 2PE 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. | | 2 Peter 2:20-22 | escaped defilements of world by Christ, entangled again, returns to mire indicates they were once untangled and clean, known way of righteousness, had washed | entangled, overcome, turned away, returns to vomit/mire | last state worse than first, better they never had became Christians | | 2PE 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2PE 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2PE 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. | | 2 Peter 3:17 | beloved, Christians | carried away, | fall from own steadfastness | | 2PE 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. | | 2 John 8-9 | Christians, have accomplished | not abide in doctrine, false doctrine | lose, no reward doesn't have God | | 2JO 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 2JO 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. | | Revelation 2:4-5 | Christians in Ephesus | left first love | fallen, lampstand removed | | REV 2:4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. REV 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. | | Revelation 3:5 | Christians in Sardis | deeds incomplete | are dead | | REV 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. | | Revelation 3:16-17 | Christians in Laodicea | lukewarmness | spit out of Christ's mouth | | REV 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. REV 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: | |
Topical organization of scriptures that refute "Eternal Security"
Parable of sower:
Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13), "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away." Fallen from grace passage: Galatians 5:4, "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Pruning passages: John 15:5-6, "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Romans, 11:19-23, "You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again." Hebrews Passages: Hebrews 6:4-6, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame."
Hebrews 10:26-27, "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."
Hebrews 10:38-39, "Now the just shall live by faith: ; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul." Doctrinal Apostasy passages: Acts 20:17,28-30, "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church...I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."
1 Timothy 1:18-21, "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander"
2 Timothy 2:16-18, "But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some."
1 Timothy 4:1, "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"
1 Timothy 6:20-21, "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called knowledge-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."
2 Peter 2:1, "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."
2 Peter 3:17, "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness."
2 John 8-9 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."
Moral Apostasy passages:
1 Timothy 6:9-10, "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang."
2 Peter 2:20-22, "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, A dog returns to its own vomit, and a sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
James 5:19-20, "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."
Revelation passages:
Revelation 2:4-5, "'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent."
Revelation 3:5, 'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels."
Revelation 3:16-17, "So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing, and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked." Old Testament passages: Ezekiel 18:24-26, "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."
Other scriptural arguments that refute "Eternal Security"
The fact the Bible exhorts to faithfulness proves one can be lost:
be "stedfast, unmoveable" (1 Corinthians 15:58).
"For if these things be in you" (2 Peter 1:5-11).
"we shall reap, if we faint not" (Galatians 6:9).
"be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).
practice these things and God will be with you (Philippians 4:9).
Man has a free will:
Joshua 24:15, "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." The Bible clearly prophesied some would fall away: Acts 20:28, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." 1 Timothy 4:1, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" Christians are to restore the fallen: Galatians 6:1, "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted."
James 5:19-20, "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
Your name can be blotted out of the book of life:
Exodus 32:32-33, "Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."
Deuteronomy 9:14, "Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they."
Deuteronomy 29:20, "The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven."
Psalms 69:28, "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."
Revelation 3:5, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." After God forgives your sin, you can lose your salvation by not forgiving others:
Matthew 18:23-35, "Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."
Posted by: JG
Why do we let satan blind us to the truth.
Sin is not a state but a condition.
That is why Jesus said you must die daily not once and for all.
So many are dieing because they reject the knowledge of God
HOS 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
because thou hast rejected knowledge,
I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
What is the Lord saying
People are pershing because of Lack of Knowledge.
Why===
Because they reject the knowledge of God
God rejects them.
We must pray daily
We must die daily
We must follow after Jesus daily
We must seek him daily
We must confess our sins daily
We must keep short accounts daily
We must die to our sins daily.
Why do we want an excuse to keep in our sin
What did paul say: should we sin that grace may abound GOD FORBID
all we have to do is read the prayer request on this prayer board to see that so many are not living for the Lord
The duty of the intercessor is to pray for the ignorant and those in sin.
Posted by: ANOINTED WARRIOR
Very awesome JG this is it and good AND THE TRUTH....
Posted by: Tiff
JG
I Tried to follow your post... Forgive me as Im not a scholar but I have had *some* study. I became confused on what you were trying to share. Are you saying (which it seemed to me) that you can loose your salvation? Where you stated
Quote:
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wherewith he was sanctified, (this means he was saved but now he is not saved)
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I dont agree with the parenthasis. I believe that the one discussed here hasnt necessarily been SAVED rather set apart for salvation then that salvation was rejected, the Knowledge was rejected. I dont believe salvation actually took place although the gift was in place to be accepted. Im sure this is purely interpretation.
also
Quote:
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(the person who was saved as a youth but now continues to live in adultery will not go to Heaven Rev 21),
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at face value, this sounds like your promoting the idea that you can loose your salvation.
I dont think children at a young age have the wisdom to ask for salvation. This goes to the age of accountability. One must have a share of maturity to understand what they are asking when asking Jesus to come into their life and save them. My two younger children have been dedicated to Jesus until such a time they are aware enough to ask for salvation. Do you know Wayne Barber? Hes an awesome pastor of a church and teaches precepts. He was a pastor of a church and middle age before he realized that he wasnt truely saved! He came to Jesus and developed that saving relationship YEARS after he lived as though he were saved.
If someone becomes saved and continues to live in HABITUAL sin (meaning they choose to live a life of sin) well, You know this may not go over very well but I dont think that person was truely saved. Only professing with their mouth they are. so No, They wont reach heaven. Not because they LOST their salvation but because they never truely had it to begin with. Salvation comes with a changed heart and Habitual sin is no longer a desire. We screw up yes, we still sin, yes but we are aware and repent and find no pleasure in it.
I didnt say this before, Ive been hospitalized for suicidal attempts when I was young. I was in a very bad place and grew from a severely dysfunctional home. Thank JESUS He brought me out of that. Suicide is not of good but of evil. That I agree with. Will a suicide go to heaven or hell? I have many things to concentrate on. This is one of those that I will just leave in Gods hands
To say a saved person goes to hell is to say salvation is conditional and personally I cant do that. Thats like saying "Your saved but if you, in a weakness of the flesh, commit adultery and then die, your going to hell" because they didnt have a chance to repent that sin. I cant feel that. If salvation was only from some sin and not other sin, It wouldnt be salvation. thats personal opinion. I dont pretend to have tons of scripture to back that up. I could even be wrong! Im not above being wrong
I just feel strongly that my salvation was from sin. Not from 5 out of the 10 commandments.
I do know some people use this as an excuse to sin.. They will be judged for that as well. That is between Jesus and them. I personally dontdo that.
Please understand Im no expert, scholar or teacher. Im not a minister like you are, These are simply my feelings, things I feel Ive learned in study and i wanted to share.
Tiff
Posted by: Tiff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JG
Why do we let satan blind us to the truth.
Sin is not a state but a condition.
That is why Jesus said you must die daily not once and for all.
So many are dieing because they reject the knowledge of God
HOS 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
because thou hast rejected knowledge,
I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
What is the Lord saying
People are pershing because of Lack of Knowledge.
Why===
Because they reject the knowledge of God
God rejects them.
We must pray daily
We must die daily
We must follow after Jesus daily
We must seek him daily
We must confess our sins daily
We must keep short accounts daily
We must die to our sins daily.
Why do we want an excuse to keep in our sin
What did paul say: should we sin that grace may abound GOD FORBID
all we have to do is read the prayer request on this prayer board to see that so many are not living for the Lord
The duty of the intercessor is to pray for the ignorant and those in sin.
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May I ask (Im not being defiant, Im asking because I dont know and value feedback) Is this verse refering to those who have accepted Jesus or those that have been given the truth and rejected thus ARE NOT saved?
I looked it up along with the references given but dont understand.
Tiff
Posted by: JG
It is very clear.
Once Sanctified means he was pure white as snow.
It is one of the primary words to describe clean of Holy.
If you have an NIV it was taken out our your bible.
When the bible says Sactify it means make clean and holy.
It says that 154 times in the old testament alone.
It was the last thing that was done before the Glory came on or in the person or object.
It does not mean and never meant consecrate or dedicate.
Those are totally different words.
My look at the sentence and look at the grammar.
"wherewith he was sanctified"
not thinking of salvation
Not hoping for.
He was made holy.
How about the other verses there are hundreds of them....
I will blot your name out....
Look at all the verses I provided in this thread.
All of them show we can lose what we had.
Old testament and New
It would be sad to say that non of those people were ever saved because they fell away.
God's word says they were saved so we have to say God's word was wrong to justify our belief.
I have seen so many come to Christ and then fall away.
To say when they run to sin they are still saved is amazing to me.
God justice forbids any uncleaness from coming near Him
He killed Aarons sons over that very issue. Lev 10 Rev21
He said: "I will be sanctified (kept holy by those who come close to me) the two sons came in their sin doing it their way so God had to stop them. He even told Aaron not to cry for them.
Isa 59:1 your sins make a seperation
If we are ever to become the church that Christ wants us to be them we must raise the standards.
Posted by: JG
You said: To say a saved person goes to hell is to say salvation is conditional and personally I cant do that. Thats like saying "Your saved but if you, in a weakness of the flesh, commit adultery and then die, your going to hell" because they didnt have a chance to repent that sin. I cant feel that
Oh my friend that's what dieing daily is all about
Oh my friend that's what dieing to your sin is all about
Oh my friend if it was not necessary why would we
1JO 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we were just always saved then why would we need to clean us up all over again
1CO 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
GAL 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
If you are doing such things no matter how good saved you think you are THE NEW TESTAMENT SAYS you will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Please do not reject this knowledge
Please read all the verses in the new testament of those who lost their salvation. That is why the world is not running to church. We are sinning with them when they are look for a safe place to come and find the answers.
HOS 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
because thou hast rejected knowledge,
I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Posted by: Tiff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JG
You said: To say a saved person goes to hell is to say salvation is conditional and personally I cant do that. Thats like saying "Your saved but if you, in a weakness of the flesh, commit adultery and then die, your going to hell" because they didnt have a chance to repent that sin. I cant feel that
Oh my friend that's what dieing daily is all about
Oh my friend that's what dieing to your sin is all about
Oh my friend if it was not necessary why would we
1JO 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we were just always saved then why would we need to clean us up all over again
1CO 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
GAL 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
If you are doing such things no matter how good saved you think you are THE NEW TESTAMENT SAYS you will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Please do not reject this knowledge
Please read all the verses in the new testament of those who lost their salvation. That is why the world is not running to church. We are sinning with them when they are look for a safe place to come and find the answers.
HOS 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
because thou hast rejected knowledge,
I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
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ok I see a bit clearer now about dieing to self and sin daily... (Im a student and will be to the day I die I fear) I always have questions but sometimes afraid of appearing defiant if I ask.
anyway I have another one (suprise!
)
Quote:
GAL 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
If you are doing such things *no matter how good saved you think you are* THE NEW TESTAMENT SAYS you will not inherit the kingdom of God.
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I do hope your not stating that this is true for the REPENTANT sinner who has done these things. These are sins which are forgivable or else salvation means absolutley nothing.
I think what you are saying is habitual or defiant/unrepenting sin. Right? Because You know, In my past I did some really crummy things, very crummy but Ive been forgiven of those sins because Ive repented and asked for forgivness so although Ive committed what youve quoted, I will inherit the kingdom of God. That was His promise to me when He saved me from the muck my life was. Praise His name! Today however I struggle with impure thoughts and continually ask Jesus to cleanse me. (Now really seeing how death to sin has to occur daily).. She can be taught!!! 
I get the feeling that your promoting perfection and that anyone who has ever broken the commandments are never in a position to go to heaven. That just cant BE! Why did Jesus die then?
I stand by my idea however that if your truely saved, you can not loose that salvation. Im convinced that those who lost their salvation never really had it to begin with. We as mortals can NOT determine true salvation for anyone. Only God knows the heart of man. I may be stubborn and thats ok. Its just a point Im convinced on. I may not know what the entire Bible says but I do know that from my own observations, true salvation cant be kicked to the curb. I think interpretation is widely based on study in context of a whole book but also, Jesus speaks to each of our hearts regarding things we are seeking to understand in His Word. I just know In my heart that I wont loose my salvation because Ive screwed up. I thank Jesus that he allows me to fess up and ask forgiveness and even the times Im being stubborn, he forgives me because I ask for forgiveness over things Im to stubborn to confess!
Anyway, I thank you for allowing me to voice my thoughts and confusions and questions. I may never know it all but I sure can try to understand as much as possible.
In His Name
Tiff
Posted by: Tiff
I missed the first post sorry....
I understand what your saying. I just dont happen to see eye to eye. I do feel those that fall away, where you see it as loosing salvation, is meaning those who are given the knowlege and then reject it.
Its Ok that I dont see eye to eye with someone. My salvation is not dependant on the different ways we interpret the Word nor is yours.
I dont presume to try to change your mind, Im stating MY point of view. I do hope Im still welcome.' I see the scripture you refer to and My opinion of what it means remains the same.
Tiff
Posted by: JG
You will always be welcome.
I am enjoying this very much.
The main point is
If you die in your sin where do you go.
I knew of a girl that was a friend of my sons
One saturday night I saw her going to a party
She was the daughter of a minister
She was a member of my church choir.
She taught sunday school.
She said she was saved.
When I saw her I asked if she was going to the party.
She said yes.
I asked if she was going to drink
She said yes
I asked if she was going to dance
She said yes
I asked if the right young man came along was she going to bed with him
She said yes
I asked if she was going to sing in the choir in the morning and teach sunday school
She said yes
I asked what she thought Jesus would think
She said "I always asked God to forgive me"
I asked will you go party again
She said yes
I asked do you think God forgave you
She said He has to
I said no he does not
She was shocked
She asked why, because the bible said he would.
I said when she said she was sorry was she sorry enough not to want to hurt Jesus again
She said no.....
That my friend is the state of the Church Today.
Will Jesus forgive and forget and treat you like you never sinned.
yes
Will Jesus never bring it up again
Yes
Will some of us sin again and again and again.
Yes
That is why we need a SAVIOUR everyday.
But we must have the godly sorrow that leads to repentence that leads to salvation.
If you have a boyfriend who beats you and rapes you but askes you for forgive him. What do you do.
You forgive him but if he keeps doinging it. Will you believe he means it.
Don't be foolish, does God know when we really mean it.
Of course He does.
We have to learn when we really mean it.
Posted by: Tiff
I think there is a huge difference between those who habitually and willfully sin because they think God will forgive...
and those who know they are forgiven of sin.
I know People like the girl in the story. Im not one of them 
I dont think we are going to agree on this. I will pray for my discernment and enlightenment. Not to have my mind changed to someone elses point of view but to hear what He has to say to *me* on the issue and to recognize it when its given.
Blessings,
Tiff
Posted by: all4jesus
I truly feel for anyone who deals with this subject of killing themselves. My father killed himself when I was young. My only hope is that since my father didn't die instantly from his self inflicted wound that while he was at the hospital that he repented to the Lord and asked for forgiveness of his sins. He had the will to go on for six years after being in a car accident that paralzed him when he was 18 years old. I was only two at the time of the accident. For six years he struggled but hadn't given up. Then doctors told him he had gotten bone marrow cancer and he killed himself. When my father died my mother went out of her mind and for years she was mentally ill and couldn't barely take care of me and my sister. I was 8 years old when he died and I prayed after finding out about him dying although I didn't understand or accept the truth of how he died. But I can still remember to this day being touched by the Lord through prayer to God. I asked God to let me say goodbye to my dad and to this day I still believe what my heart and mind believe is God did allow that to happen in my prayer. The Lord knew how badly I was hurting and my family. Alot of things happened to change my life after dad dying. So in my heart I think if people who kill themselves don't die right away they still have a chance with God to ask for forgivenss. We do not know what the last thoughts are of those that kill themselves and only God knows this. For He is our judge. Ten years ago I took looked at my circumstances and try taking a overdose of pills and ended up in the hopital intensive care unit and spent a total of 5 weeks in the hospital where I found the will to live. For God had other plans for me that satan tried to destroy me. I thank God for letting me live for I found love and hope in HIM! God is good to us and if we don't give up He remains so faithful and loving to us. I have learned in my life that only God can change our lives from all the destruction but we first have to let Him in to do the work only He can do. I pray that the Lord stays close to those that satan's ways are trying to destroy them. I do understand that the Holy spirit is within us and that it is not to be destroyed and yes I think killing oneself will bring death and separation to God and a lifetime in Hell. But I personally have hope as well for those who have fallen in this trap of death that since we don't know the last thoughts of their mind and spirit only seeing what they have done we do not know if they and our Lord had a talk and forgiveness was asked. It is best that we all stay away from satans traps and continue everyday turning to our Lord Jesus. God Bless you all. Dawn
Posted by: jedijeb
I am still struggling with this a bit but I do have one question. Did Sampson go to hell?
Posted by: StarChilde
I am splitting this in 2 parts, because I done some study on it, and is quite lengthy:
First...Suicide in the Bible
SU'ICIDE, n. [L. suicidium; se and coedo, to slay.]
1. Self-murder; the act of designedly destroying one's own life. To constitute suicide, the person must be of years of discretion and of sound mind.
2. One guilty of self-murder; a felo de se.
Suicide
General references
Amo_9:2; 2. Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Rev_9:6) 6. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Temptation to:
Of Jesus
Mat_4:5-6; 5. Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6. And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Luk_4:9-11) 9. And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
10. For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
11. And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Of the Philippian jailer
Act_16:27 ) 27. And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
See Death, Desired Instances of:
Samson
Jdg_16:29-30) 29. And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left.
30. And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.
Saul and his armor-bearer
1Sa_31:4-5; 4. . 4. Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.
5. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him.
1Ch_10:4-5 Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.
5. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him
Ahithophel
2Sa_17:23 23. And when Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled his ass, and arose, and gat him home to his house, to his city, and put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died, and was buried in the sepulchre of his father.
Zimri
1Ki_16:18) 18. And it came to pass, when Zimri saw that the city was taken, that he went into the palace of the king's house, and burnt the king's house over him with fire, and died.
Judas
Mat_27:5
5. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Act_1:18) 18. Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Now about unconfessed sins, and the results thereof:
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh [commits sin] shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting" (Galatians 6:7-8).
"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Romans 8:12-13).
"For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 3:8).
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end" (Hebrews 3:6).
"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end" (Hebrews 3:14).
"It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he will also deny us" (2 Timothy 2:11-12)
I don’t believe in the “ONCE SAVED-ALWAYS SAVED” doctrine. It is not Biblical.
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Peter 2:20-21).These people didn’t only backslide..they TURNED FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIVERED UNTO THEM.
Paul admonishes us to EXHORT ONE ANOTHER DAILY… LEST THE HEART BECOMES HARDENED:
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" (Hebrews 3:12-14).
Posted by: StarChilde
"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul" (Hebrews 10:38-39).
Why would it be said “of them WHO DRAW BACK UNTO PERDITION?”
From Webster’s dictionary:
Perdition
PERDI'TION, n. [L. perditio, from perdo, to lose, to ruin.]
1. Entire loss or ruin; utter destruction; as the perdition of the Turkish fleet.
[In this sense, the word is now nearly or wholly obsolete.]
2. The utter loss of the soul or of final happiness in a future state; future misery or eternal death. The impenitent sinner is condemned to final perdition.
If we reject the truth, we seal our own perdition.
3. Loss. [Not used.]
LITERAL BIBLE WITH STRONG’S #’
38.
|3588| the |1161| But |1342| righteous |9999| {person}
|1537| by |4102| faith |2198| will live, |2532| and
|1437| if |5288| he draws back, |3756| not
|2106| is pleased |3588| the |5590| soul |3450| of Me
|1722| in |0846| him.
39. |2249| we |1161| But |3756| not |2070| are
|5289| of {those} drawing |1519| to
|0684| destruction, |0235| but |4102| of faith
|1519| to |4047| preservation |5590| of {the} soul.
|0684| destruction= Strong's Ref. # 684
Romanized apoleia
Pronounced ap-o'-li-a
from a presumed derivative of GSN0622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):
KJV--damnable(-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.
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Originally Posted by RYAN HICKS MINISTRIES
” . IS FORGIVENESS POSSIBLE WITHOUT THE CONFESSION OF SIN?
Twice in the 18th Chapter of Ezekiel God says, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4, 20). How does this harmonize with the modern-day doctrine of the eternal security of the believer, or once saved, always saved? It doesn't harmonize at all, because the once saved, always saved doctrine is a doctrine of man, not of God. The modern-day eternal security doctrine cheapens the grace of God. (Although it can not actually be cheapened, they try to make up their own cheapened version of it.) If God were to forgive a believer without them confessing their sin and repenting of it, then He would have to forgive the sinner that sins without them confessing their sin and repenting of it. Otherwise He would be a respecter of persons (see Romans 2:11) and an unjust judge, but the word says, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right" (Genesis 18:25)?
God says in Exodus 34:6-7, "...The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty...." Unless a Christian who has sinned repents of and confesses their sin they will not be cleared. Colossians 3:25 says, "But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons[with God]."
Many people today twist, distort, and pervert many Scriptures in their vain attempt to prove that once someone is saved they can never forfeit their salvation. Let's look at a few of these Scriptures. "And I give unto them [His sheep] eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29). A quick glance at these verses may seem to imply that once you receive eternal life you can never forfeit it, but a careful interpretation of Scripture with Scripture proves quite the contrary. Jesus said, "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:5-6). If someone does not abide in Christ then they willingly abandon the gift of eternal life by sinning.”
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YES…CHRIST’S BLOOD COVERS OUR SINS..those in the past… those now..future sins…but does that mean we should willingly and knowingly sin KNOWING THE BLOOD OF CHRIST COVERS IT? I believe it covers those sins that WE REPENT OF… THAT WE CONFESS…THAT WE ACKNOWLEDGE!
EZEKIEL 18: 20-28 is clear…THE SOUL THAT SINS SHALL DIE!...” When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die”
Quote:
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Originally Posted by RYAN HICKS
Forsaking salvation not only makes one liable for their current sins they committed after salvation, but according to the above verses it also makes them accountable for all the previously forgiven sins. Matthew 18:21-35 also makes this same point in regard to a believer not forgiving someone who sins against us and then asks for forgiveness, "Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."
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Romans 6:1,2) 1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:13-18) 13. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17. But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
RIGHTEOUSNESS= RIGHTSTANDING WITH GOD…. Suicide= murder of one’s self is NOT STANDING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!
Posted by: JG
Starchild: thank you for this brilliant post of the effects of eternal security. I just pray someone other than me will read it. When I read these other post I wonder if they even read any of the words. They always say I feel, or in my opinion. What about the word.
So many know so little of the word.
Like anointed warrior here
he said: to say after one commits suicide...oh nope the blood didnt cover him.....hes going to hell...thats wrong Jesus blood either covered past present and future or none at all....
That is contrary to the whole word of God.
He must not have read the verse I have posted many times.
ROM 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Any person who studies law knows you can only get forgivness for a crime you have done, not a crime you have not done.
JOH 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
This is the same argument the unitarians use for everyone is saved. You do not need to ask for salvation because everyone is already saved they say.
You can not read any more into John 19 than you can read into the same thing in john 17
What about when Jesus said:
JOH 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Each time he was talking about specific prophecies not the whole thing.
So many give their opinion. I wish they would really read the Word.
Thank You starchild for taking the time to add what I have already put here.
Eze 18 is very clear, as long as you have the breath to confess you will be forgiven. That is the justice and the grace of God.
WHY WHY WHY DO WE CONDEMN SO MANY TO HELL BY ALLOWING THEM TO STAY IN THEIR SIN
WHY WHY WHY DO WE CALL IT CONDEMNATION WHEN THE SUBJECT OF SIN COMES UP
I PERSONALLY FIND IT LIBERATING WHEN THE LORD POINTS OUT SOMETHING THAT I CAN GET RID OF SO I CAN BE MORE LIKE HIM
NOW AS TO SAMPSON - HE WAS A HERO. HE DID NOT COMIT SUICIDE:
HE WAS AT WAR AND ASKED THE LORD TO KILL MORE IN HIS DEATH THAN IN HIS LIFE. ANY SOLDIER KNOWS THAT PRICE. I SAW MEN PAY IT IN VIETNAM. I MYSELF HAD TO STAND ONE DAY FOR THE LIFE OF OTHERS AND NOT CARE IF I DIED. THAT WAS NOT SUCIDE. SOMETIMES WE CALL THOSE PEOPLE HERO'S. HOW DARE WE CALL THEM WIMPS OF SUICIDE
Posted by: JG
Dear Tiff: I really do like your questions.
you said: I dont think we are going to agree on this. I will pray for my discernment and enlightenment.
I pray you read the whole thread.
Then try and compare the word with the word.
This is not opinion. Just think of the hours that has gone into answering you.
I agree with you that there are people who think they are saved but are not. The young girl I spoke about, she would get mad at you or I if we told her she was not saved.
But the word is very clear, if we sin we must confess our sin. Grace is the ability to come into the presence of God and receive mercy.
Why else did God give us
HEB 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession. 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin. 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Why do we need to come here if not to confess our sins to a man who understands.
Why else do we have
ROM 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Are we believing in our heart unto the rightway?
Are we confessing our sins unto salvation?
It is not just saying "I believe" as James say "so does satan"
HEB 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
What is the contex. You were once part of God now you are departing because of unbelief.
Tiff help me out... show me the word that says you can be in sin and be saved at the same time. Now understand please read the Word that has been already applied here.
I do not want opinion I want word.
This is fun to me so please do not get mad at me.
Posted by: jedijeb
I do agree on the Sampson part definately, some people don't make the distinction between taking you own life and giving your life.
Now my question is on confession as stated in the Romans passage:
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him:
Rom 10:13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
I know there are many verses dealing with confession of sin, but this passage seems to be talking about confessing Jesus as Lord. Now to me noone could truely confess Jesus as Lord of their life and not confess their sins to Him just from the sheer conviction that comes upon us from taking Him as Lord of our lives. This next passage is also showing belief in Jesus as Lord as what brings salvation:
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;
Joh 3:15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.
The sin of unbelief is enough to condem us to hell even if we were able to not sin otherwise( which we are unable to do). The belief is what saves us, belief that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, that He lived a sinless life, that He died for our sins and that He rose again the third day of His own power.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Here these are the ones who live for these sins, they center their lives around such things. Such WERE some of us. But the saved Christian now lives for Christ, washed, sanctified and justified through Christ. If a Christian happens to committ one of these sins through an error in judgment he has not become again someone who lives for that sin or as Paul says " brought under the power" of it.
Now I know this will br brought up so here it is:
Co 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body [is] not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid.
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Here Paul says we are one spirit with the Lord, and the the Holy Ghost is in us, therefore we should glorify God in our bodies. It doesn't say though that for a sin the Holy Ghost leaves the body nor that we are no longer one spirit with the Lord. It does say that we are bought with a price and that our body and spirit are God's. The justification of the blood of Christ covers our sins even when we are unaware of them. If when we commit a sin we have become unworthy to enter Heaven then we would also be unworthy to come before God in His presence to ask forgivenness for them. Without Jesus' blood upon us we can not even come before God to ask for forgivenness.
Here is says we have died with Christ, died to sin and made free of it.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Dies that set us at liberty to go around sinning, no, but that dept was paid once and following Christ we were put through that same death through Him. It says that before salvation we WERE servants to sin but now we have been made free from sin. " for the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" . The semicolon here show this as a before and after statement. Everyone who has sinned has earned death for them, but God gave us the gift of eternal life. A gift requires no work from us to earn, only acceptance. If we have to earn it then it is no longer a gift but a reward.
I do enjoy the debate on this, and these are some of the scriptures I use to back up my beliefs. I guess that even if I am wrong I am still doing what you believe in that I daily ask for forgivness for my sins, and anytime I committ one and realize it I ask Him right then and there to forgive me because I want nothing to stand between the fellowship of me and my Lord.
Posted by: JG
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Soteria777
Jerry I read this entire post, but I don't believe we have need of the blood once we are DEAD. We'll no longer be in sinfilled bodies. We'll either be with Jesus in heaven, tranfigured, transformed, like Him forever and ever or we'll be eternally in the outer darkness, the Lake of Fire WITHOUT HIM, with no hope and no more chance of being saved and covered in His blood.
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The issue here is does God forgive sins you have not done.
We must understand what the sacrifice was all about.
Now again what does the word say:
ROM 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation (this is the word for atonement a covering or erasing of) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Please see this, because this is why revival is not in the land.
We need people who will go all the way with God.
Posted by: ANOINTED WARRIOR
Jerry you said I said this:he said: to say after one commits suicide...oh nope the blood didnt cover him.....hes going to hell...thats wrong Jesus blood either covered past present and future or none at all....
your right it was in a persons view point of someone who is saying a christian who has Jesus in there heart is going to hell from sucide...if your a christian your right there covered past present and future...you just said it yourself.....so that shows me the christian person who commits suicide is covered when he commits suicide...this was my point...or are you saying the blood isnt powerful enough to cover him....once you ask Jesus into your heart your saved....the christian person who commits the sin of suicide is covered by the blood...all past present and future sin are covered by the blood....now knowing this ...now the christian person who commits suicide has jesus in there heart they accepted Jesus as saviour and Lord into there heart..k Jesus knew they would do this and still saved him....now for all those people who say the blood didnt cover that sin of suicide is wrong there contradicting the what the blood is for to cover all sins..Jesus blood covers all sins in life committed period lets not make one sin bigger than another.....yes suicide is a sin....and if you dont have Jesus in your heart when you kill yourself your going to Hell.... sin is sin period....you take your cares and burdens and sin to Jesus just like he says to do.....now another thing I try not to get into flesh ever when JESUS is speaking something to me I write it down not of my own thinking what I think it is....Lets be christians and quite putting people down just some people dont agree with them k...Jesus is love and encourages...he doesnt put someone down because they supposedly dont know the word....you want to hear something cool...your half right there Jerry....I know Jesus more than I know the word.....I listen to him more than the word....both are awesome ...but most of the time I listen to him...Man shall not live by bread alone which is the word...but every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God....sounds like the Holy Spirit to me.....whoooooooooo hallalelujah....so amen Jerry I lift you up I am not mad at you..I love you....encourage people when they dont know something....we love you Jerry..... I am so excited for you to Go to africa wish I were going...
Posted by: JG
Do not twist my words.
I did not say: if your a christian your right there covered past present and future...you just said it yourself.....
I did not say this:
I said look at the WORD. The WORD of God says
God only has forgiven the sins of the past
This is fun I don't know how many time I will have to post this verse until someone see it.
ROM 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation (this is the word for atonement a covering or erasing of sin) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
This theology that says God has forgiven your sins of the future is not in the bible. God is to holy, his justice forbids any communion with sin.
HEB 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
What does this mean: It means you have no covering for your sins you just did. Will God make a way for you to repent YES. Will God help you come back in right relationship YES. Will God give you the grace to be forgiven YES. But at this moment the relationship is broken. He can not hear or answer any prayer but confession. He can not receive any worship. He will not do anything until you ask for forgiveness. He will send the Holy Spirit to convict you of the sin. He will sent the Holy Spirit to give you a spirit of REPENTENCE. But He can not and will not let you have the benifits of relationship until your confess. You will have no power over satan. You will have no authority over sickness. And if you stay in the sin God will have to remove His hedge of protection untill you confess.
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Show me in acts, the gospels, the epistles where God answered a prayer of someone who wanted to stay in sin.
Romans says: ROM 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Posted by: ANOINTED WARRIOR
aweome who cares about who said what...doesnt matter.......what does matter is lets Join together in prayer against the spirit of suicide...
Posted by: quickdraw
Oh Father, I come in agreement with Anointed Warrior, You gave us Your POWER , Your AUTHORITY IN JESUS' MIGHTY NAME!! Lord, encourage us by Your Spirit to use it, and stop wasting time intellectualising about what Your Word says!! YOUR WORD IS GOD BREATHED AND IT SPEAKS TO EVERY INDIVIDUAL BY YOUR SPIRIT, YOU KNOW OUR HEARTS, AND YOU SPEAK TO US, WHERE WE ARE AT, THAT'S HOW YOU GROW US!! Father, let us STOP wasting time splitting hairs over what it means!! There are SO MANY CONFLICTING INTERPRETATIONS!! Intellect IS NOT the tool we are supposed to be using, IT'S YOUR SPIRIT THAT IS INSIDE EVERYONE OF US THAT SPEAKS TO US INDIVIDUALLY!!!
Forever His,
Sharon
Posted by: JG
As the leader and founder of this board I care.
I love the Partners God has given us on this prayer board.
I love them so much my heart breaks for them every day.
So who cares? I care and will always care.
People are dieing out there because they are being decieved.
They are being told that it is a mental illness to kill your self
They are being told that it is a sickness that they can not help
Even you said if they kill themselves they go to heaven
That my friend is not God.
Why not just give everyone some poisened koolaid like Jim Jones did a few year back and killed his whole church.
That is wrong.
So yes my friend I care.
I want the truth to set them free.
I so not want any to be comfortable in sin
I do not want to be responsible for the suicide of any.
EZE 13:22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: 13:23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.
Posted by: StarChilde
[QUOTE=] the christian person who commits suicide is covered when he commits suicide...this was my point...or are you saying the blood isnt powerful enough to cover him....once you ask Jesus into your heart your saved....the christian person who commits the sin of suicide is covered by the blood...all past present and future sin are covered by the blood....now knowing this ...now the christian person who commits suicide has jesus in there heart they accepted Jesus as saviour and Lord into there heart.. Jesus knew they would do this and still saved him....now for all those people who say the blood didnt cover that sin of suicide is wrong there contradicting the what the blood is for to cover all sins..Jesus blood covers all sins in life committed period lets not make one sin bigger than another.....yes suicide is a sin....QUOTE]
Brother...you know I love you, ...
we have had some great discussions... I cannot accept this...your saying that once someone is saved... that no matter what...they are saved. It is not me saying contrary, it is OUR AUTHORITY- THE WORD OF GOD. God cannot...will not... allow sin into heaven. To do so would be against His own words. That is why God turned His head and could not look at Jesus on the cross..because He bore THE FULL WEIGHT OF ALL SINS! Jesus was so disfigured from what He'd been through, He was not recognizable... but it was OUR SINS, that He bore in His body through the beating and the stripes or lashes across His back..that disfigured Him. -- King James
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
God turned His head from Jesus, HIS OWN SON... because He could not bear to look at sin!
It says: KJV I JOHN 1:5-10 )5. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
OK....first God is light..and in Him there is no darkness... He WILL NOT, CANNOT ALLOW SIN... IT IS DARKNESS! We cannot be in fellowship with God, with Jesus, with DARKNESS=SIN IN OUR LIVES! We are to do what? CONFESS OUR SINS,then what? Jesus is faithful and just--FORGIVING OUR SINS and then what? We are CLEANSED FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, which means not standing right! God cannot deny His hatrd of sin... of darkness... God says we are to purge sin from the Body of Christ...it is as leaven...it is BAD FOR THE WHOLE BODY!! I COR. 5:1-8 ) 1 Corinthians 5
1. It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I am not condemning any here with these words, only wanting them to come to the TRUTH, as it is in God's word...OUR AUTHORITY!
Posted by: StarChilde
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Originally Posted by quickdraw
Oh Father, I come in agreement with Anointed Warrior, You gave us Your POWER , Your AUTHORITY IN JESUS' MIGHTY NAME!! Lord, encourage us by Your Spirit to use it, and stop wasting time intellectualising about what Your Word says!! YOUR WORD IS GOD BREATHED AND IT SPEAKS TO EVERY INDIVIDUAL BY YOUR SPIRIT, YOU KNOW OUR HEARTS, AND YOU SPEAK TO US, WHERE WE ARE AT, THAT'S HOW YOU GROW US!! Father, let us STOP wasting time splitting hairs over what it means!! There are SO MANY CONFLICTING INTERPRETATIONS!! Intellect IS NOT the tool we are supposed to be using, IT'S YOUR SPIRIT THAT IS INSIDE EVERYONE OF US THAT SPEAKS TO US INDIVIDUALLY!!!
Forever His,
Sharon
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Sister, with all due respect... I agree we are not to have dissension... but I CANNOT AND WILL NOT stay quiet when I see someone saying things that are contrary to God's Word. And no... it is not a simple matter of interpretation... GOD HAS THE FINAL SAY! I did not answer with intellect..I prayerfully went to God's Word as my authority. -
- King James
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Posted by: jedijeb
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Originally Posted by JG
Romans says: ROM 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
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What does the phrase " that are dead to sin" mean in this instance. If we are dead to sin, then it no longer has any hold on us, or am I just way off base here.
A what if that I have been asked before:
If I am crossing the street and there happens to be a very attractive woman on the other side and I have an impure thought about her and at that moment a bus runs over me and kills me, am I going to hell?
There was no opportunity to ask forgiveness. If that person is going to hell then Satan would just have his followers going around trying to take everyone out at just the right moment to rob Heaven of the saints.
This was one I was unsure of how to answer except by security of the believer. If this is the case many would be to afraid to walk out the door for fear of an accident sending them to hell.
Another question for the sake of asking, and I am not trying to be sarcastic at all just wondering so I can explain to others who ask me questions like this all the time. What is PAST to God? or what is FUTURE for that fact. God is the beginning and the end. He knows all and time has no hold upon Him, He has already been to the future so is there a future to Him or is all past?
This is another point of view that I have been confronted with and is mentioned in Matthew Herry's commentary :
That all who by faith are interested in this propitiation have the remission of their sins that are past. It was for this that Christ was set forth to be a propitiation, in order to remission, to which the reprieves of his patience and forbearance were a very encouraging preface. Through the forbearance of God. Divine patience has kept us out of hell, that we might have space to repent, and get to heaven. Some refer the sins that are past to the sins of the Old Testament saints, which were pardoned for the sake of the atonement which Christ in the fulness of time was to make, which looked backward as well as forward. Past through the forbearance of God. It is owing to the divine forbearance that we were not taken in the very act of sin. Several Greek copies make en tēanochē tou Theou - through the forbearance of God, to begin Rom_3:26, and they denote two precious fruits of Christ's merit and God's grace: - Remission: dia tēn paresin - for the remission; and reprieves: the forbearance of God. It is owing to the master's goodness and the dresser's mediation that barren trees are let alone in the vineyard; and in both God's righteousness is declared, in that without a mediator and a propitiation he would not only not pardon, but not so much as forbear, not spare a moment; it is owning to Christ that there is ever a sinner on this side hell.
Where it is mentioned that sins past refers to the sins of those who came before Christ which were attoned for by Christ through their faith in Him even before He came.
I like this debate but it is beginning to seem as if I need to go to law school to properly interpert this, I am glad the Holy Spirit helps me with that so I don't have to become a lawyer.
Posted by: jedijeb
I am also trying to figure out this verse Starchilde mentioned:
1 Corinthians 5
5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be save