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Can you lose your Salvation?
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Posted by: traycee
Hi,
I posted this same question on another christian site but wanted to hear what you all have to say.
Can you lose your salvation?
If Yes, how?
If No, why not?
Thanking you,
Your Sister in Christ,
Tray
Posted by: JG
In another post they said they felt they could not lose their salvation
You said: "I was always taught that you can not lose your salvation. Because if I sin today and without asking forgivenness before I die I would not go to heaven then as soon as I commit that sin I am lost forever, mainly because of this passage:"
you used Hebrews 6 but please look at the grammar. The falling away here is in the ariost tense which means he wants to fall away in sin not be closer to Jesus.
Heb 6:6 and then fell away (fall away and keep falling) (inother words it says the same thing in Psa 66:17 (if they respect the sin in their heart more than God.) or Isa 59 (your sins make a seperation between you and your God) (the person who was saved as a youth but now continues to live in adultery will not go to Heaven Rev 21), it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Now let's please consider the rest of Hebrews
HEB 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden (and keeps stepping on Jesus) under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, (this means he was saved but now he is not saved) an unholy thing, and hath done (keeps doing) despite unto the Spirit of grace? 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
I am sorry to dissapoint you but the weight of scriputre is against being in sin and in God at the same time.
Please read all of these verses. Eze puts it best, as long as you have breath you can go to heaven. Remember God does not forgive the sins of the future but the sins of the past: therefore you must confess. ROM 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood,
to declare his righteousness
for the remission of sins that are past,
through the forbearance of God;
Eternal Security is it of God Page
EXO 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. (Remember your name had to be in the book to have it taken out)
DEU 29:19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven..
"Eternal Security" is also known as "once saved always saved," or "perseverance of the saints." In other words, once someone accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior, there is nothing that he or she can do to separate himself/herself from God, and they will always be saved. This is a false doctrine. The following passages show, without any doubt, that those who believe in Christ can fall away if they do not practice righteousness.
Bible texts that refute "eternal security" Bible Text | Description Of Blood Bought Believer | Description Of Sin | Description Of Believer After Sin | | Ezekiel 3:20; 18:24-26 | righteous | turns away, commits iniquity | die in sin | EZE 3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. EZE 18:24 ¶ But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 18:25 ¶ Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?18:26 When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. | | Matthew 25:1-13 | took lamps and went to meet Christ | 5 were foolish | "I do not know you" | | Matthew 25:14-30 | Christ's own slaves | hid talent | wicked lazy, cast into outer darkness, weep & gnash | | Luke 8:13 | receive word with joy, believe | temptation, persecution | fall away | | LUK 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. | | Luke 9:62 | put hands to plow of kingdom | looked back to former life | not fit for kingdom | | LUK 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. | | Luke 12:42-48 | steward in charge of Christ's servants | beat slaves, drunkenness | cut in pieces, assign with unbelievers | | John 15:1-6 | branches | does not abide | thrown away, dried up, burnt | | JOH 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. | | Acts 4:32;5:1-11 | of those who believed | lied to Holy Spirit | God struck dead | | Acts 8:9-24 | Simon the sorcerer believed, baptized, received HS | offered money | heart not right, wickedness, gall of bitterness, bond of iniquity | | Acts 20:17,28-30 | elders, shepherds of church | false doctrine | drawn away | | Romans 11:13-23 | wild olive, grafted in v17, stand by faith V20 | unbelief, not continue V20,22 | not spared, cut off V21-22 | | ROM 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: ROM 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. ROM 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. ROM 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. | | 1 Corinthians 9:26-27 | Apostle Paul, preached to others | body not slave | Paul disqualified | | 1 Corinthians 10:1-12 | standing (feel they are saved) V12 | immorality, crave evil, grumble, | fall V12 | | Galatians 2:11-14 | Apostle Peter | false doctrine, hypocrisy | Literal Greek "stood condemned" V11 | | Galatians 5:4 | severed & fallen indicates previously joined and standing | seeking to keep OT | severed from Christ, fallen from grace | | GAL 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. | | Galatians 6:1 | restore indicates once saved | caught in trespass | needed to be restored | | GAL 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. | | 1 Timothy 1:18-20 | Hymenaeus, Alexander: shipwreck indicates they once sailed good. | rejected faith and good conscience, blasphemed | their personal faith shipwrecked, delivered to Satan | | 1 Timothy 4:1 | fall away indicates once saved | false doctrine | fall away from faith | | 1TI 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; | | 1 Timothy 5:8 | passage addressed to Christians | doesn't provide for family | denied faith, worse than unbeliever | | 1TI 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. | | 1 Timothy 6:10 | passage addressed to Christians | love of money | wandered from faith, pierced selves with pangs | | 1TI 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. | | 2 Timothy 2:16-18 | Hymenaeus and Philetus: gone astray indicates once correct | False doctrine: resurrection past | gone astray, upset other's faith as well | | Hebrews 3:12 | brethren | evil, unbelieving | fall away from God | | HEB 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. | | Hebrews 4:1-2,11 | brethren, addressed to Christians | unbelief, disobey | short of God's rest, fall | | Hebrews 6:4-8 | once enlightened, tasted heavenly gift, partakers of HS, Bible & powers to come, renew indicates restore to former cleanness | sin | fallen away, can't renew, crucified Christ again and put in open shame | | Hebrews 10:26-31 | received knowledge of truth. no longer remains indicates they once had forgiveness | sinning willfully | no forgiveness of sin, fearful judgment | | Hebrews 10:38-39 | God's righteous, Christians | shrinks back | God has no pleasure in him, destruction | | James 5:19-20 | brethren, Christians | strays from truth, sin | soul will die in sins, sinner | | JAM 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; JAM 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. | | 1 Peter 5:8 | Christians | sin | devoured by devil | | 1PE 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: | | 2 Peter 2:1 | Christians, "among you" had been bought by Christ | false prophets | swift destruction | | 2PE 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. | | 2 Peter 2:20-22 | escaped defilements of world by Christ, entangled again, returns to mire indicates they were once untangled and clean, known way of righteousness, had washed | entangled, overcome, turned away, returns to vomit/mire | last state worse than first, better they never had became Christians | | 2PE 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2PE 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2PE 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. | | 2 Peter 3:17 | beloved, Christians | carried away, | fall from own steadfastness | | 2PE 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. | | 2 John 8-9 | Christians, have accomplished | not abide in doctrine, false doctrine | lose, no reward doesn't have God | | 2JO 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 2JO 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. | | Revelation 2:4-5 | Christians in Ephesus | left first love | fallen, lampstand removed | | REV 2:4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. REV 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. | | Revelation 3:5 | Christians in Sardis | deeds incomplete | are dead | | REV 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. | | Revelation 3:16-17 | Christians in Laodicea | lukewarmness | spit out of Christ's mouth | | REV 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. REV 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: | |
Topical organization of scriptures that refute "Eternal Security"
Parable of sower:
Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13), "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away." Fallen from grace passage: Galatians 5:4, "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Pruning passages: John 15:5-6, "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Romans, 11:19-23, "You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again." Hebrews Passages: Hebrews 6:4-6, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame."
Hebrews 10:26-27, "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."
Hebrews 10:38-39, "Now the just shall live by faith: ; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul." Doctrinal Apostasy passages: Acts 20:17,28-30, "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church...I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."
1 Timothy 1:18-21, "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander"
2 Timothy 2:16-18, "But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some."
1 Timothy 4:1, "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"
1 Timothy 6:20-21, "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called knowledge-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."
2 Peter 2:1, "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."
2 Peter 3:17, "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness."
2 John 8-9 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."
Moral Apostasy passages:
1 Timothy 6:9-10, "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang."
2 Peter 2:20-22, "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, A dog returns to its own vomit, and a sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
James 5:19-20, "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."
Revelation passages:
Revelation 2:4-5, "'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent."
Revelation 3:5, 'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels."
Revelation 3:16-17, "So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing, and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked." Old Testament passages: Ezekiel 18:24-26, "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."
Other scriptural arguments that refute "Eternal Security"
The fact the Bible exhorts to faithfulness proves one can be lost:
be "stedfast, unmoveable" (1 Corinthians 15:58).
"For if these things be in you" (2 Peter 1:5-11).
"we shall reap, if we faint not" (Galatians 6:9).
"be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).
practice these things and God will be with you (Philippians 4:9).
Man has a free will:
Joshua 24:15, "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." The Bible clearly prophesied some would fall away: Acts 20:28, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." 1 Timothy 4:1, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" Christians are to restore the fallen: Galatians 6:1, "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted."
James 5:19-20, "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
Your name can be blotted out of the book of life:
Exodus 32:32-33, "Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."
Deuteronomy 9:14, "Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they."
Deuteronomy 29:20, "The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven."
Psalms 69:28, "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."
Revelation 3:5, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." After God forgives your sin, you can lose your salvation by not forgiving others:
Matthew 18:23-35, "Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."
Posted by: JG
Why do we let satan blind us to the truth.
Sin is not a state but a condition.
That is why Jesus said you must die daily not once and for all.
So many are dieing because they reject the knowledge of God
HOS 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
because thou hast rejected knowledge,
I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
What is the Lord saying
People are pershing because of Lack of Knowledge.
Why===
Because they reject the knowledge of God
God rejects them.
We must pray daily
We must die daily
We must follow after Jesus daily
We must seek him daily
We must confess our sins daily
We must keep short accounts daily
We must die to our sins daily.
Why do we want an excuse to keep in our sin
What did paul say: should we sin that grace may abound GOD FORBID
all we have to do is read the prayer request on this prayer board to see that so many are not living for the Lord
The duty of the intercessor is to pray for the ignorant and those in sin.
Posted by: JG
It is very clear.
Once Sanctified means he was pure white as snow.
It is one of the primary words to describe clean of Holy.
If you have an NIV it was taken out our your bible.
When the bible says Sactify it means make clean and holy.
It says that 154 times in the old testament alone.
It was the last thing that was done before the Glory came on or in the person or object.
It does not mean and never meant consecrate or dedicate.
Those are totally different words.
My look at the sentence and look at the grammar.
"wherewith he was sanctified"
not thinking of salvation
Not hoping for.
He was made holy.
How about the other verses there are hundreds of them....
I will blot your name out....
Look at all the verses I provided in this thread.
All of them show we can lose what we had.
Old testament and New
It would be sad to say that non of those people were ever saved because they fell away.
God's word says they were saved so we have to say God's word was wrong to justify our belief.
I have seen so many come to Christ and then fall away.
To say when they run to sin they are still saved is amazing to me.
God justice forbids any uncleaness from coming near Him
He killed Aarons sons over that very issue. Lev 10 Rev21
He said: "I will be sanctified (kept holy by those who come close to me) the two sons came in their sin doing it their way so God had to stop them. He even told Aaron not to cry for them.
Isa 59:1 your sins make a seperation
If we are ever to become the church that Christ wants us to be them we must raise the standards.
Posted by: traycee
Hi JG
Thanx, I'll read that all now but first in your post:
You said: "I was always taught that you can not lose your salvation. Because if I sin today and without asking forgivenness before I die I would not go to heaven then as soon as I commit that sin I am lost forever, mainly because of this passage:"
That wasn't me... 
I'll read all you wrote now, I appreciate your input.
Tray
Posted by: alexx
Hi Tray....i Thought Your Question Was An Interesting One And As You Can Tell By Jg's Answer There's Alot Of Scripture Concerning That.....ive Heard Preachers Preach It Both Ways All My Life...i Do Believe That It Takes More Than Simply Believing In Jesus To Get To Heaven....the Devil And His Demons Believe...i Dont Know If You Lose Your Salvation Or If You Never Really Had It To Begin With...i Think When You Ask Jesus To Come Into Your Heart There Is A Real Change In Your Heart...god Sees The Heart Of A Man....if Your Heart Is Filled With Sin How Could Jesus Reside Their.........mans Flesh Is Always Going To Be Tempted To Sin And Sometimes You Sin...and If Jesus Is In Your Heart You Immediately Feel Bad About That Sin And Repent.....but If Sin Lives In Your Heart And You Seek It Out I Dont See How Jesus Could Stay There...i Just Know Im Really Glad We Have A God That Can See The Heart....
Posted by: jedijeb
Quote:
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Originally Posted by traycee
Hi JG
Thanx, I'll read that all now but first in your post:
You said: "I was always taught that you can not lose your salvation. Because if I sin today and without asking forgivenness before I die I would not go to heaven then as soon as I commit that sin I am lost forever, mainly because of this passage:"
That wasn't me...
I'll read all you wrote now, I appreciate your input.
Tray
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Traycee, that quote was from something I posted once just so you know Jerry isn't saying you wrote it. I referenced the passage in Hebrews:
Heb 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
This is how Matthew Henry explaines it in his commentary:
"He shows how far persons may go in religion, and, after all, fall away, and perish for ever, Heb_6:4, Heb_6:5. (1.) They may be enlightened. Some of the ancients understand this of their being baptized; but it is rather to be understood of notional knowledge and common illumination, of which persons may have a great deal, and yet come short of heaven. Balaam was the man whose eyes were opened (Num_24:3), and yet with his eyes opened he went down to utter darkness. (2.) They may taste of the heavenly gift, feel something of the efficacy of the Holy Spirit in his operations upon their souls, causing them to taste something of religion, and yet be like persons in the market, who taste of what they will not come up to the price of, and so but take a taste, and leave it. Persons may taste religion, and seem to like it, if they could have it upon easier terms than denying themselves, and taking up their cross, and following Christ. (3.) They may be made partakers of the Holy Ghost, that is, of his extraordinary and miraculous gifts; they may have cast out devils in the name of Christ, and done many other mighty works. Such gifts in the apostolic age were sometimes bestowed upon those who had no true saving grace. (4.) They may taste of the good word of God; they may have some relish of gospel doctrines, may hear the word with pleasure, may remember much of it, and talk well of it, and yet never be cast into the form and mould of it, nor have it dwelling richly in them. (5.) They may have tasted of the powers of the world to come; they may have been under strong impressions concerning heaven, and dread of going to hell. These lengths hypocrites may go, and, after all, turn apostates. Now hence observe, [1.] These great things are spoken here of those who may fall away; yet it is not here said of them that they were truly converted, or that they were justified; there is more in true saving grace than in all that is here said of apostates. [2.] This therefore is no proof of the final apostasy of true saints. These indeed may fall frequently and foully, but yet they will not totally nor finally from God; the purpose and the power of God, the purchase and the prayer of Christ, the promise of the gospel, the everlasting covenant that God has made with them, ordered in all things and sure, the indwelling of the Spirit, and the immortal seed of the word, these are their security. But the tree that has not these roots will not stand"
Here he even speaks to the belief that those who are truely converted in their souls by the belief in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, though they may fall at times, are secure in the knowledge of their salvation which was purchased by Christ through His death and as promised in the gospel that whosoever believes on Jesus Christ shall have everlasting life and in them the Holy Spirit dwells.
In Romans we are shown that through our belief and confession of Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour we are partakers in His death burial and resurection and with that death we break the bondage of sin that we are in it no longer, for that death is the price for sin.
Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he that hath died is justified from sin.
Rom 6:8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him;
Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For the death that he died, he died unto sin once: but the life that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey the lusts thereof:
Rom 6:13 neither present your members unto sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves unto God, as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid.
This is an excerpt from the Henry commentary for this passage:
"He argues from the precious promises and privileges of the new covenant, Rom_6:14. It might be objected that we cannot conquer and subdue sin, it is unavoidably too hard for us: “No,” says he, “you wrestle with an enemy that may be dealt with and subdued, if you will but keep your ground and stand to your arms; it is an enemy that is already foiled and baffled; there is strength laid up in the covenant of grace for your assistance, if you will but use it. Sin shall not have dominion.” God's promises to us are more powerful and effectual for the mortifying of sin than our promises to God. Sin may struggle in a believer, and may create him a great deal of trouble, but it shall not have dominion; it may vex him, but shall not rule over him. For we are not under the law, but under grace, not under the law of sin and death, but under the law of the spirit of life, which is in Christ Jesus: we are actuated by other principles than we have been: new lords, new laws. Or, not under the covenant of works, which requires brick, and gives no straw, which condemns upon the least failure, which runs thus, “Do this, and live; do it not, and die;” but under the covenant of grace, which accepts sincerity as our gospel perfection, which requires nothing but what it promises strength to perform, which is herein well ordered, that every transgression in the covenant does not put us out of covenant, and especially that it does not leave our salvation in our own keeping, but lays it up in the hands of the Mediator, who undertakes for us that sin shall not have dominion over us, who hath himself condemned it, and will destroy it; so that, if we pursue the victory, we shall come off more than conquerors. Christ rules by the golden sceptre of grace, and he will not let sin have dominion over those that are willing subjects to that rule."
These and other passages lead me to believe that Salvation is not something I can have today and not tomorrow. I know that every day I sin, and I do ask forgivness for those sins which I am aware of but I also know that there are many sins I commit which I do not even realize I commit, and it may be weeks or even years later that the Holy Spirit deals with me on them to the point which I realize them and repent of them. If I were to believe I was not saved in the time between when I commit them and the time I realize them and repent of them I would constantly be in a state of worry( which is also a sin) that I have missed something and if I die I would not go to Heaven. That would put me in bondage to trying to constantly monitor every little thing I do so that I would police my actions and that I would be taking the actions which would ensure I go to Heaven instead of letting God handle those things. The freedom which is granted to me of assurance of my salvation is a freedom from trying to work my way into Heaven instead of relying upon faith that God through Jesus Christ is the author of my salvation.
Now do not get me wrong, this in no way gives me liscense to sin. Yes I will fall at times and commit sins, but I cannot ever again say " sin is good" nor can I condone it or overlook it. If I could sin and say it is right to do so, then I can not be saved for when Jesus came into my heart, my heart was changed and in that change came my knowledge of sin for what it is. And the indwelling Holy Spirit that is within me tells me of the sins I commit so that I may acknowledge them and repent of them that my fellowship with the Father my not be hindered. Just as I am a child of my earthly father and though things I may do may harm the fellowship I have with him I can not become a non-son to him. We are joint heirs with Christ as children of God with Him how can we then become non-children. As Paul wrote we are adopted into the kingdom as children of God:
ph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:
Adoption is permanent, as law states you can disinherit a blood heir but not an adopted heir, it is a protection given to them because they are children by choice of the parent not by nature.
I know that in most topics Jerry and I agree, this just happens to be one in which we see things differently. I am not saying either that I am right or he is wrong, I would never presume myself to be above mistakes. This topic as with all other Spiritual things I am always taking to the Lord in prayer and searching scripture over, and if the Holy Spirit leads me to answers which differ from what I believe now I will surely follow Him as I desire only to know my Lord as best I can, but I don't change without a sure and much prayed over conviction. Someday I may agree totally with Jerry on this, and I will definately post it here if I do.
Posted by: traycee
Hi jedijeb
Thanx for clearing that up and also commenting on my question. I really appreciate everyone's opinions.
God Bless,
Tray
Posted by: person
I think it is possible to lose salvation, but i think it is rare. I was once told a story of a man who used to be a missionary who lost his faith. He bacame a sunday school teacher for his church and pursuaded the kids that he was teaching that God is not real. He led many astray and i am sure he is no longer saved. I really dont think it happens that often though. How many people experience the power of God and then completly turn agianst Him and hate Him? I can understand falling away and living a sinful life but i always liked to think that He still has us on His fishing line, and that He is reeling us in. Even when i am not living corectly, i can stilll hear God's voice when i listen.
Posted by: Georgia_Girl
Different Opinion:
This topic is one of those that you either believe or not. There is no middle I don't think. Please understand that I am just putting in my opinion and I am sorry if I in any way hurt anyone by doing this. I believe in ETERNAL SECURITY!
My take on this is:
If you are saved and become a Child of the Lord then just as you have an earthly father that no matter what happens to you or him he is still your Father you have a heavenly Father and no matter what. He is Your Father.
Would you be able to do anything that makes you not your of your Earthly Fathers Blood?
Then How could you do anything that makes you not of your Heavenly Fathers blood after Christ covered you with it.
Can a born again
Christian ever lose his salvation?
Can a Christian ever lose their salvation? Can someone who has truly been saved ever be lost?
What saith the scriptures?
Salvation is BELIEVING in Jesus Christ
Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary.
"He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16
We are NOT saved by WORKS
The Bible makes it clear that OUR WORKS has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.
We don't receive it by our works — and we don't keep it by our works!
" NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9
Salvation is a FREE GIFT
Salvation is the free gift of God. If we had to work to keep it — it would not be a free gift — and God would be a liar!
". . . the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23
". . .by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18
Salvation is a NEW BIRTH.
Salvation is not enduring or a process, but an event in time. Salvation is a NEW BIRTH. Just as your first birth happened on a certain time and day, so does the second birth.
"(For he saith, I have heard thee in a TIME accepted, and in THE DAY OF SALVATION have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted TIME; behold, now is THE DAY OF SALVATION.)" 2 Corinthians 6:2
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3
"Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23
You become a CHILD OF GOD
Once you are born again SPIRITUALLY — you become a child of God.
"Beloved, NOW are we the SONS OF GOD, . . ." 1 John 3:2
"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, FATHER." Romans 8:15
Nothing can SEPARATE us from our Father
Just as nothing can "negate" your physical birth, nothing can "negate" your spiritual birth.
My children will always be my children. We may have troubled times. Our fellowship may be broken, but our relationship can never be broken. They will always be my children. Nothing or nobody can change that! And once you are born again spiritually — God becomes your Father — nothing or nobody can change that! Your fellowship may be broken, but your relationship can never be broken!
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38
"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29
Jesus will NEVER leave us
Jesus promised He will never leave us. Jesus could not say this if there was even a chance of losing our salvation.
". . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5
". . . and, lo, I am with you ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20
We already HAVE eternal life
When the Bible speaks of possessing eternal life, it speaks in the present tense (hath, have, etc.) — SOMETHING WE ALREADY HAVE! If we had to work or endure to keep our salvation, this could not be true.
"He that believeth on the Son HATH EVERLASTING LIFE:.. ." John 3:36
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . ." 1 John 5:13
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE,. . ." John 5:24
Jesus will NOT cast you out
". . . him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." John 6:37
We are COMPLETE in Jesus Christ
"And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:" Colossians 2:10
We are PERFECTED FOR EVER
We are "perfected for ever" by Jesus Christ. How could the Lord say such a bold statement if we had to earn or keep our salvation?
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14
We are PRESERVED in Christ Jesus
"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED IN JESUS CHRIST, and called:" Jude 1
"And THE LORD. . . WILL PRESERVE ME unto his heavenly kingdom:. . ." 2 Timothy 4:18
We are KEPT by the POWER of God
"Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5
"Now unto him that is able TO KEEP YOU from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy," Jude 24
We are saved to the UTTERMOST
"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the UTTERMOST that come unto God by him,. . ." Hebrews 7:25
We are SEALED until the day of redemption
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30
". . .after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13
What about the BACKSLIDER?
What about the "backslider" or somebody that forsakes the Lord? The Bible says he will suffer loss (rewards, etc.) — but he himself shall be saved!
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
We become the BODY OF CHRIST
"For we are MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, of his flesh, and of his bones." Ephesians 5:30
"Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST, and members in particular." 1 Corinthians 12:18
What if we later — BELIEVE NOT?
Our salvation is so secure — even if we BELIEVE NOT after we're saved, because we become part of Him (the body of Christ), ". . .yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF."
"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13
But what if I sin an awful sin?
1 Corinthians 5 reports of an awful sin in the church. And even though Paul commands ". . . To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" — Paul still speaks of that person being saved — ". . .that the spirit MAY BE SAVED. . ."
"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:1,5
To lose your salvation — makes God a LIAR
With all the PROMISES from God to KEEP you, to SAVE you, to PRESERVE you — to even suggest you could lose your salvation — is to call God a LIAR!
". . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . ." 1 John 5:10
Posted by: JG
This makes me so sad to see people believe a lie from satan.
Eternal security is one of the largest problems of the church today.
All you have to do is be a partner on this prayer board for a long time to see the fruit of eternal security.
There are so many millions who don't even go to church and think they are saved because someone said they were saved forever.
Oh I already know your answer. The cop outs of all cop outs. How do we know they were saved. That is what everyone says who believes in eternal security. Where are the ministers who will take the responsibility of all the souls who misunderstood their preaching and believe the lie and are on their way to Hell.
The pastors have given up on them
Well I want you to know this is one man who is going after them and praying for them every day.
Few want to learn about the holiness of God
Few want to really understand the sacrifice of Jesus.
We have so many prayer request posted here like this:
Please Pray for N. salvation and deliverence from drugs. The same for his 2 oldest boys. (greg and mike) Healing for him from an abusive upbringing and 2 failed marriages. 5 boys from 4 different women. Him and I have a son who is 3 and we have been living together. It's turned into s chaos mess. So much fighting. Please pray.
She thinks she is saved. Now understand this is why we are here to gently lead such a loved one to Jesus. But someone lied to her. Her life is a mess and she does not really understand why.
Because I am jewish and I look at the sacrifice a little different I understand why you can lose what you once had.
You must understand you are adopted into the kingdom
You have a free will you can divorce Jesus.
Eternal Security takes away your free will. It says even thought you want to have God leave you alone you cant. How about Jaycee Knight she grew up in an Assembly of God church.
She was saved,
baptized and
filled with the Holy Spirit
speaking in tongues.
Leading people to the Lord for years.
Later as a divorced woman she got demoned possessed and now believes a 40,000 year old god lives in her. She wants nothing to do with Jesus. Are you saying she is still saved. Oh I know you will say she was not.
EXO 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. (Remember your name had to be in the book to have it taken out)
DEU 29:19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.. Your name can not be taken out if it was not in there.
Look how God Himself wrote about it in the new testament
How much clearer does it have to be to see you name can be put in the book and your name can be taken out.
REV 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
REV 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Jesus is saying they that did not overcome He will blot their name out.
Only those who stayed the course will make it in.
Those who were saved but got their garments stained and did not fall in their knees to repent of their sins will not make it in.
Oh my friend when you have preached to over 11 million people
When you have seen hundreds of thousands get saved these last 10 years.
When you have see the pain on the face of Jesus when so many turn away.
Oh my friend you will never believe the lie of satan again.
Please read the verses I posted because the ones you posted have nothing to do with security but the mercy of God.
Posted by: JG
1 Timothy 4:1, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" Christians are to restore the fallen: Galatians 6:1, "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted."
James 5:19-20, "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
Posted by: JG
People in the Bible who lost their salvation
King Saul
1 Samuel 10:1
1 Then Samuel took a flask of oil and poured it on Saul's head and kissed him, saying, "Has not the Lord anointed you leader over his inheritance?
1 Samuel 16:14
14 Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil [1] spirit from the Lord tormented him.
It is well known that King Saul made some pretty foolish and jealousy-driven decisions in between time.
The circumcision group in Galatians
Galatians 5:4
4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
Luke 8:13--The believers who fell away
13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
1 Timothy 18-20: Hymenaeus and Alexander
18Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
Where is Hymenaeus's eternal security. They had a free will to ship wreck FAIH. They had it and lost it. And then tried to bring other people with them.
And of course, my personal favorite Judas Iscariot whom you can read all about by clicking here:
http://www.annointed.net/Community/...highlight=judas
Posted by: JG
Some more people who lost thier salvation the the New Testament.
Demas
His Salvation: Philemon 24: -- Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.
This doesn't necessarily prove that Demas was saved, but it gives a very good clue seeing he was following Paul and Paul even labeled a "fellowlabourer". Paul was picky about who traveled with him, as witnessed by Acts 15:37-41, where he refused to take someone with him because of a past experience of unfaithfulness.
His Departure:
2 Timothy 4:10 -- For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica;..."
If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. It is apparent that Demas was a believer, and then turned to the world.
Fruitless Christians
Their Salvation/Departure: John 15:2 -- Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:6 -- If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
There is a story in Matthew about a servant of the King who was given one talent and told to make good use of it. He didn't. He never lost the talent, but he was fruitless in getting more. What happened to this man?
Matthew 25:30: And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
__________________
Posted by: JG
1 Corinthians 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
Romans 11: 19-23
19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Hebrews 3:1;12
12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
Hebrews 10: 26-29
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
2 Peter 2:20-22
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[6] and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
Posted by: Georgia_Girl
So are you saying that if you have led a Godly life in his sight and then at the last hour of your death (which in unknown) you stuff yourself and have heart failure or commit any other sin (because they are all equal in his eyes) that you are going to hell? I ask this because it just seems so harsh. I know that Christ is in me and that He sent his son to die for all of my sins, and I repent daily because I am not perfect in any way but its hard for me to think that God has a magnifying glass hanging over my head ready to burn if I am not. Please help me to better understand.
Thank You
Ginny
Posted by: person
This is a good discussion. Anyways, as I have already said before, I do think it is possible to lose salvation. I dont, however, believe that skiping a few sundays, or a years worth of sundays, will cause you to lose your salvation. I think that the pact I have with my God is bigger than that. Works cant save you. Its a free gift. The only way I think it is possible to lose salvation is to reject the gift and decide to never have anything to do with God. I really dont know any scripture references to back this up, but this seems to be what the Spirit has revealed to me. Every time I fall away I can still feel Him. Even if I try to tune him out and live a worldly life, I can still feel him embracing me and reasuring me that he is still my God.
I love you all. I thank Jesus that I was able to find this board.
-Sam
Posted by: traycee
Hi Georgia_Girl
Thanx for your comment, it is appreciated.
I was also taught that you cannot lose your salvation.
The problem i have is that it is very convenient to believe such a thing, no consequences.
But still, i believe i am saved and i am secure in my salvation. I think that the person who gets "saved" but shows no life change, was never truly a child of God.
So maybe what we should do is try to live a life that is pleasing to God and let Him, who is just, judge us.
YOU CANT STAY AS YOU ARE AND GO WITH GOD AT THE SAME TIME.
BE TRANSFORMED BY THE RENEWING OF YOUR MIND.
STRIFE TO BE LIKE JESUS.
What do you think?
Your sister in Christ,
Tracey
PS: Please pray for my husband and I today.
Posted by: Georgia_Girl
I think that about sums it up. I will be praying for you and your husband. 
With love in Christ,
Ginny
Posted by: traycee
Thanx Georgia_Girl.
I read your profile and will be praying for you and your husband also. I pray that our Lord will give you the desires of your heart!
Posted by: Frederik
I really don't understand this anymore.
We are saved by faith, but faith without deeds is dead.This means that somebody who accepts Jesus and then remains in his sin and lives his life like he always did will most likely not be saved, but what about christians which give their life to Jesus and then fall back to a sinful lifestyle and don't even want it and suffer from this, I mean are the automatically erased from the book of life?
I always thought the only way to lose your salvation is to blaspheme the holy spirit and to willingly turn away from God. Imagine a christian who believes in Jesus who goes through trials and becomes an alcoholic, does he go to hell?
Or what if I forget to confess one single sin, do I go to hell? I think Jesus paid for all our sins and not just for the ones we committed until we got saved. Sure, we can lose our salvation but I think this would mean to blaspheme the holy spirit but maybe I'm wrong, I don't know this whole topic is very scary.In the end you cannot even feel safe anymore cause maybe you made a mistake and were not fruitful enough and then you're on your way to hell, this is really great. I feel so good right now. 
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy
This would mean that a christian who is married and betrays his wife is lost without any hope!!
Posted by: alexx
frederik....there has been alot of different debate on this subject in this thread...both with some scripture to back what they are saying.....i just know that god looks at the heart of a man...not his good deeds or bad deeds....and he is a loving caring fair god..who will not let anyone go to hell that doesnt belong there
Posted by: Frederik
But what if you think everything is fine and then you go to hell?
Posted by: alexx
i dont beleive you can think everything is fine and go to hell....doesnt the holy spirit deal with peoples hearts...and i dont beleive that a sin that has gone unconfessed or unresolved will keep us from heaven....jesus already paid the price for those sins...that doesnt mean we have a lisence to sin...but think about it...if you have jesus in your heart...can sin stay there....you may sin after becoming a christian...but not without the holy spirit convicting your heart
Posted by: Frederik
But what if I forget to confess a sin? I mean there are christians which sin and don't even know it.There are christians which download songs from the internet which is illegal but they think it's okay.
Posted by: alexx
Jesus Already Paid The Price....and I Think God Knows Whether A Person Would Have Confessed A Sin Given More Time.....but Even If Im Dead Wrong About The Way That God Deals With Sins...i Know With Out A Doubt That No One Is Going To Go To Hell By Mistake....if A Person Ends Up There Then God Has Judged Them To Be There And He Is The Ultimate Judge......since We Know Not The Hour Of Our Death How Can We Be Accountable For A Sin That Is Out There Unresolved....jesus Already Took Care Of The Cost...the Only Thing That Is Going To Keep Us From Heaven Is Not Having Jesus
Posted by: Frederik
I also believe that.
Posted by: tamsonfirst
First,
Thank you Pastor Jerry for your knowledge on this. It lines up very much with what my Pastor has said and what I believe from my knowledge of scripture.
I think, please Pastor Jerry, correct me if I am wrong, we are saved by faith..by trusting that Jesus is who he claims to be and that his death was once for all sins. We cannot lose our salvation BUT we can give it away. Look at Adam. God gave him dominion over the entire earth and all that was in it...He was created for perfect union and fellowship with God, but instead he listened to Eve..Rememeber he was not deceived by Satan (ITimothy 2:14), Eve was and HE CHOSE to do as she suggested. Adam gave his dominion over the Earth to Satan and, likewise, we can give our salvation and authority in Christ away as well. As believers our number one desire should be to grow in an intimate relationship with Jesus. It is the restoration of God's original plan for mankind. Growing would entail reading the Word, putting it into practice, daily prayer (actually constant prayer/dialogue with God..but usually that takes time to get into), fellowship with other believers, and sincere repentance of sin..When we repent we recognize that we have done wrong and ask God to help us not to commit that sin again or be any longer enslaved to that pattern of behavior.
I believe most of the references in the NT regarding losing one's salvation refer to those who commit to Jesus with wrong motives. Many who heard his messages and saw the miracles were drawn to the signs and wonders and promises of God, not desiring to know God and accept his love.
MY OPINION,
If I were to die tomorrow and I had a few sins to confess, I do believe God has mercy, but this would only apply if I was making a sincere effort to grow, recognizing the areas where I need help, and earnestly seeking Him.
Remeber Hebrews 11:6 (NIV)
: "And without faith it is impossible to please God, for anyone who comes to Him MUST BELIEVE THAT HE EXISTS AND REWARDS THOSE WHO EARNESTLY SEEK HIM."
Earnestly seeking God and recognizing and admitting our failings. That is what counts for enternity, I believe.
No I don't buy the "Carnal Christian/Secure Salvation" arguement. It basically relieves the believer of any responsiblity to follow the Holy Spirit and seek spiritual growth. It allows believers to remain conformed the way of the world, instead of asking them to be transformed (Romans 12:2)
But, also know that Satan is " a liar and the Father of lies" (John 8:44-latter half of verse)
He will do all he can to convince you that you aren't going to Heaven anyway, so what's the point. I know..I bought this lie for 30 years.
Praise God that "He who began a good work in you (us) is faithful to see it through to the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil 1:6)!
MHO...but Pastor Jerry is ultimately the annointed one among us.
Posted by: Emmaus007
To commit sin sexually (adultery, sexual immorality, homosexuality, etc....). All other sins are outside the body, but they who sin sexually sins agaist the body. Your body is the temple of God and it is sacred. If anyone destroys (defiles) Gods Temple, God will destroy him or her, for Gods temple is sacred, and YOU are that temple. The body is not ment for sexual immorality, but for the lord and the lord for the body. By commiting sexual sin you have destroyed (defiled) the temple of God, hence it is a sin that lead to "death" (loss of salvation).
Yes you can gain your salvation back through "true" repentance and turning away (fleeing) from the sin and not living/seeking it out anymore. But that is the thing. When you repent of those sins you are to never seek them out again or you risk losing your salvation yet again. God knows your heart. If you keep returning back to your sin after you have repented, then you never were truly repentive of your sin to begin with, hence you never really regained your salvation. Understand I am talking about sexual sin here. All other sins as God says are outside the body.
Posted by: tamsonfirst
Emmaus,
I agree to a point, but then again there goes the pattern of behavior arguement. Some people have to repeat the same behaviors again and again before they finally understand that they have a problem not isloated incidents. Then often it is necessary to get at the root of our problems, be honest with God and ourselves, and submit to him for transformaion in our lives.
I have commited adultery twice. The root of my problem was alcoholism which was born out of fear, insecurity, and deep sense of unworthiness. I had to or rather God had to bring me to an absolute state of brokeness which including some harsh consequences (which I brought on myself) before I finally began to realize I had a problem. I was already a Christian and active seeking God and active in my church when this happened, but I was afraid to let others see the whole me and, hense, led a double life.
God has done some amazing things in my life in the last two years. I am growing in ways I never thought I could...I look at the girl that existed then and know that in Christ I am a new creation. My body is His temple, but most importantly He loved me enough to send Jesus to die for me and the choices I made were breaking his heart.
It isn't over until it's over. No one is beyond redemption until they physically leave this earth...then it is too late. Don't forget the men on the crosses next to Jesus..One had faith and sought forgiveness..He went to Heaven..The other was a bitter cynic who refused to believed. He did not.
Posted by: Emmaus007
And I agree with you completely on what you say. It isn't over till its over... I was refering to those who continue to the same pattern and never change it.
Posted by: eagle4him
Father, in the name of Jesus I come to You and I pray that You would remove the scales from the eyes of those that have been tricked and deceived by the father of lies concerning eternal salvation. For these two words are mentioned side by side in the bible, Your word only once. Jesus is the author of eternal salvation--He authored it, He wrote the covenant and signed it and sealed it with His prescious blood.
Jesus offers us a promise of eternal salvation if we are obedient to His commandments and endure to the end. He gives us free will to decide whether we want to live in covenant with Him or in default of the agreement. Any agreement is binding on both parties. When, through our disobedience we are in default then we loose out on the promise of eternal salvation. But we have free will! We do not receive our salvation until we die!
When we believe the lie of once saved, always saved, we stop looking for God. We stop seeking to store up heavenly treasures, and begin seeking to satisfy the self. Pride creeps in and this new deceiver causes us to begin storing up earthly treasures. We preach the gospel to our friends and family, but we don't live it. We hear the word of God but we don't do it. We find and bend scriptures to justify and satisfy our position, and then live our lives any way we want to. For once we believe that we can never loose something, we develop a false sense of security. We give ourselves a license to sin, especially if we believe the other lie that tells us that all sin is covered with the blood of Jesus, past, present and future.
This false security hardens our hearts and masks our sins. We stop seeking the truth, because the truth we believe as baby Christians never develops or matures. We feed on feel-good doctrines, baby food, that satisfy the flesh, but never fully develop. We eventually starve spiritually from malnutrition.
Father, in the name of Jesus feed Your children. Let them be filled, not with bread alone, or milk, but with every word that proceeds out of your mouth! Expose the lies and the liars for what they are!
Let those who have been deceived confess their sin and repent in the name of Jesus. For You also promise that if we confess and repent of our sins that you will forgive us and restore us.
Revelation chapters 2 and 3 talk about the seven churches. The first words out of Jesus mouth to each one of the churches is "I know your works..."
--but Jesus, I said I believed?
--but Jesus, don't You know my heart?
--but Jesus, my sins were covered with Your grace, weren't they?
--but Jesus, don't You love me just the way I am?
"Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles. Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers." Matt7:21-23
Jesus is not talking to the non-believers. He is speaking in Matthew to the ones who called themselves "saved"! Many is not just a few! Many is a lot! Many is a choice you make from your own free will, which is also a "free gift from God"
Anywone that tells you that salvation is a free gift is deceiving you. It might be free to you--but it was bought and paid for with the ultimate price--with the blood of the Lamb of God!
Eternity is forever! Where do you choose to spend it?????????????????
Posted by: Frederik
I do not believe that once you're born again you have to go to heaven no matter what.Of course you can turn away from God and live a sinful lifestyle but a sinful lifestyle is not the same as sinning once.A sinful lifestyle means to harden your heart and not to repent anymore.
Eternal salvation is not correct when you see it this way that all you gotta do is pray a sinner's prayer and then you'll go to heaven no matter what. But when eternal salvation does not exist then why does Jesus say whoever believes in me has eternal life??? Why does he say this? This is exactly what makes people believe all the have to do is believe and that's it.There are people which do not even believe they have to repent to be saved, they say Jesus said whoever believes in me has eternal life. So why does Jesus say this? Why is the bible so unclear? Why does Jesus not say whoever believes in me and follows my rules is saved? I don't understand this.Basically you can support every opinion with verses from the bible cause it's not hard to find a few verses which support every opinion.You can easily support once saved always saved with the bible, this is not a problem so why isn't the bible clear and why are there verses which sound like once saved always saved?
And when you have to follow Jesus' rules in order to stay saved how can the bible say we are saved by faith and grace? Faith and grace would mean that all we have to do is believe and then we are saved no matter what happens. I don't get this anymore.I wanna know the truth.
Posted by: Frederik
Romans 3:25 is talking about those which lived and sinned before Jesus, the people in the OT.God accepted their sacrifices even though animal blood can never take away sin.
Posted by: alexx
im going out on a limb here cause im not really sure....but maybe that is what judgment day for beleivers is about....maybe our actions after accepting jesus is what god reviews....i might be way off here but i always wondered what judgement day held for the believer.....id appreciate any insight anyone may have
Posted by: Frederik
The judgement for believers is all about your deeds and the rewards which you get, it's about reward not condemnation!
Posted by: alexx
ok.....that does make sense
Posted by: Frederik
Of course.God invented this whole stuff.
Posted by: eagle4him
If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungoldly and the sinner? 1 Peter 5:18 Righteous means holy, Christ-like
He (Paul) writes the same way (with the wisdom God gave him) in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 2 Peter 3:16, 17
The Epistles are very hard to be understood by people who are not Spirit-filled
There is a sin that leads to death 1 John 5:21 Not all sin leads to death!
There is also sin that leads to death!
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgement, if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly... 2 Peter 2:4-6
Judgement delayed is not judgement ignored The Lord will have his way!
The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire Matt 3:10
If you want to enter life (have eternal life), obey the commandments __Jesus, Matthew 19:18
We have much to say about this (falling away from the truth) but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teachings about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil Hebrews 5: 11-14
As for "Judgement Day" there will be several. First judgement is for everyone once they have died Hebrews 9:27
Another judgement occurs after rapture, when the "believers" are judged according to your works, which will determine whether you enter into eternal life or not. Romans 2:5 (I believe this is called the "white throne judgement" ) it is also talked about in Rev 2,3 letters to all 7 churches "I know your works..."
Another judgement occurs with the destruction of the ungodly men and the destruction of the old heaven and old earth 2 Peter 3:7
Another judgement is talked about in Matthew 26:31 This may be the same as the destruction of the ungodly ...will separate the people from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats
Judgement for all those that have already died , perhaps those that died before receiving salvation from Jesus Christ
Acts 17:31
The book of Revelation talks about 7 seals, 7trumpets and 7 bowls which seem to me to be 21 different judgements
So believers and non-believers will be judged; those that died before Christ will have an opportunity to meet the Saviour face to face
The Bible is very clear about "believe". Jesus said that if you love Him You will obey His commandments. You believe with your actions, not what you think in your mind or confess with your mouth. The written word of God is the logos word. When God reveals to you a word in the Bible or not in the Bible it is a rhema word. The revelation word of God is something all believers should strive for.
On this topic of believe, the Lord revealed this to me. "I have given you two ears and one mouth. Therefore, you should hear My word twice as much as you speak it. I have also given you two arms and two legs. Therefore you should walk out my word and act it out 4 times as much as you talk it out"
It doesn't really matter what you think or say about the word, but the evidence of what you "believe" is what you live out--your fruit!
If you commit to Jesus with the wrong motives, or with words and thoughts only and not actions you do no become "born-again" rather you become still-born, and your salvation promise dies at the altar.
Judas died with only one sin on his conscience that we are aware of--his betrayal of the Son of God. Judas had an intimate relationship with Him--he walked with Jesus, he talked with Jesus, he converted souls for the kingdom, he prophesied and evangelized in the name of Jesus. He cast out demons in the name of jesus, but because of his willfull sin, he commited suicide--and murder is grounds to loose your salvation--Judas, the son of perdition, is in hell because of his sin!
Personally, I think there will be many with some sin in heaven. But that is entirely up to the Lord. God will judge according to your works and not according to your heart. God knows your heart, but judges according to your deeds. You cannot truly believe in the promise of Jesus and do absolutely nothing about it. You cannot go on living like you do not have to do anything for your salvation. Everything God created had to do with a legitimate contract, beginning in the time of Adam. The name Adam, means breach; breach is a legal term that means default. Adam defaulted on his agreement with God by not obeying the commandment to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil--He did it anyway, and thus the consequences. He repented, and now is in heaven.
God made more covenants with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and renewed it with Moses. He always required our obedience as our part in it. He gave us the blood of His Son, Jesuss as final payment, but He also gave us free will to choose how we would like to live--in obedience or in disobedience in eternal life or eternal damnation.
Eternity is forever do you want life or damnation?
Posted by: Lorica Lass
When I study the Bible it seems to me there are condtions of faithfulness that must be met for one to be saved. Yahshua said Himself in Revelation "He who preseveres to the end will be saved."
On the other hand I think there are the elect and the non elect. I think there is good seed and, well, demon seed. That is what Yahshua said.
And I have heard some arguments for OSAS that seem to be persuasive.
My approach is - take no chances! Don't do anything that could be enough to cause separation from our Heavenly Father and cause a loss of the chance of going to Heaven. It's one thing one can never afford to gamble on or guess about, seems to me.