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Confused!! Can we lose our salvation???

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Posted by: JC_FREAK

Hi there, I really don't want to confuse other people but I am very confused at the minute. I have been saved for almost 2 and half years and Praise god for the work he has done in my life and how he has used me.
I have been going to a baptist church that teaches that we are eternally secure and because we haven't really gone into much detail on the subject, I never really gave it a second thought and just assumed that once you are saved, you are always saved. Nothing can take us out of God's hand. Then I was chatting to a friend of mine over instant messenger and we were debating the fact...now I am soooo confused. I cannot find proof in the bible to say that we can never lose our salvation, just verses that could possibly mean that we do. Could someone please shed a light on this topic. I have found a lot of websites that say that the teaching on eternal security is false and leading people astray.
Thanks for your help. If you have any opinion on the matter, not matter how stupid it may sound, please reply.
God Bless, Shaz xxx



Posted by: StarChilde

There was a thread on this website about that, I will do some searches and try to find it. Do a search on salvation on threads, and you might find it too. God bless.



Posted by: Frederik

Hi Shazz,
I understand your confusion.This topic has freaked me out,too.
I have also read arguments for once saved-always saved and against it.
The truth is that you can lose salvation.Just because you accepted Jesus once doesn't mean you can go on sinning and do whatever you want cause you have your ticket to heaven.You made a choice for Jesus but if you want to you can also turn away but this is something you have to do willingly.
Supposing you lead a sinful lifestyle and this means not sinning once but this means sin and go on sinning then you'll feel that this is not okay and if you go on and don't repent then there'll come a point where you turn away from God.So yes, there comes a point where you're no longer saved.But this is a process, so it's no need to freak out.Everybody notices when he's not on the right track.The holy spirit will make us feel that this is not okay but when we go on this way and don't care then it becomes dangerous.Unless you do this you don't have to be afraid.This is my opinion.Once saved always - saved is not true. A true conversion is not just accepting Jesus and checking him out wether he brings joy.It's not about checking christianity out and dump it if it doesn't work, this is not a true conversion.
True conversion is when you know that you're a sinner and that you're lost and when you come to Jesus to be saved and when you want to change.
True conversion also brings fruits.So you can always check yourself wether you still bear fruits.



Posted by: KingdomWarrior

Very solid Fredrick!!



Posted by: Frederik

Thanks.



Posted by: akabezalel

Hi Shaz:

Jerry has done a study on this, you can find it and a lot of other good information in the forum called 'Jerry's Lessons'... here is the link for the thread on eternal security...

http://www.annointed.net/ForumTopic_10122__15.htm

I was raised Southern Baptist... mostly... and I can tell you that eternal security was the hardest concept for me to let go of! But, the Bible does not support it. Read the lesson and meditate on the word, ask God for a rhema Word that lights the scriptures up in your spirit and gives you understanding. God likes to give people wisdom!

Jesus, make yourself real to Shaz and bring his Salvation to life in him and give him the rhema Word he is seeking from You. AMEN!



Posted by: Frederik

Actually Jerry's lesson on this topic freaked me out and scared me pretty much..... I lived in pure terror for a few days confessing sins every few minutes scared of going to hell if I only forget confessing 1 sin....until I researched the topic and formed my own opinion which I already stated above.



Posted by: Kristie

I recieved Christ in a Baptist Church in 1979 and was Baptist up until two years ago. They teach that concept, but it is false. Once saved not always saved. The bible even has a scripture about it would have better that a person had never known Him then to have known Him and turned away. The bible is clear that no sin will enter Heaven, so it does not matter if you accepted Christ, if you are still out here knowingly sinning against Him and His word, and if you are caught in that condition when He returns, you will not be going with. Bottom line. There is nothing to fear though. If you accepted Christ, He gives you a comforter. Benny Hinn just stated this last week on TBN, that you must recieve the annointing of the Holy Spirit, and this is true because I walked from 1979 until 2002 without the Holy Spirit, and I was right out there in the bars, drinking, smoking, whatever and told myself it was okay, because Jesus went into the bad places to preach, not the good, and I would witness to Christ in those places. But in 2002, God annointed me with the Holy Spirit, I sought the Spirit and asked for Him, and God gave him to me. Incredibly, once He came into me, I cannot even think about stepping in the parking lot of a bar, it turns my stomach, dropped cigarettes like a hot potato then also, but I battle with that here and there still this past few months, so there are some things that are not as repulsive, cigarettes and food are in the same area of sin, as we should protect the temple, but as for the more worldly things in the world, drinking, drugs, Jerry Springer, the so called good time stuff, I cannot tolerate it, makes me ill to be around it. Anyway, Benny Hinn said that you have to have the annointing of the Spirit once you accept Christ to be able to pull away from the worldly things, that you cannot do it without the Spirit, the world will always pull you back. So that is the key. Christ died for us and rose back up, and that made the way to salvation, but He also left His Spirit here with us, to house itself within us. On Pentecost, in the upper room, the disciples recieved His spirit within them, and this is how they were able to go back out and do the things Christ did when He Himself walked. He enabled each and everyone of us to have His Spirit and to perform healings, cast out demons, and all that He did on earth. When you have the Spirit, He is within you and His power comes through you as He gives us the authority to do.

Once you have the annointing of the Holy Spirit, you will not even think of being afraid, you will not be able to knowingly sin. We all sin, but there is a difference between those little sins that we commit unconsiously, and feel immediate repentence over and ask for forgiveness and point blank knowingly sin, like saying to yourself that I know it is a sin to committ adultery, but I am going to do it anyway. You get caught in that situation when Christ comes back, you are staying here. I can say that those who do though are going to be at a advantage, because they knew the Lord, and it is going to hit them right then and there like a lead hammer that they messed up, and they are going to hold strong to Him in the tribulation and die for His Name. I do believe that. But why would anyone want to get to Heaven the hard way when they could go the easy way that Christ may a venue for.

Just seek the annointing of His Spirit, ask Him to give you the Holy Spirit within you, and seek that diligently and He will, He left His Spirit here for you, all you have to do is seek Him.

Hope this helps. God bless...



Posted by: earlanderson

My pastor tells us that a coin has two sides and that many questions about God have two answers. Just as it takes two sides to make a whole coin it takes two truths to answer some questions about God . Both sides are true and it takes both sides to get the whole truth. You can find scripture to argue both ways. The scripture says that we are not to debate the things of GOD. I believe that you can lose your salvation but I never would want to hurt a new believer by argueing about it.



Posted by: JG

Eternal Security is it of GodPage

EXO 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book

DEU 29:19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
.

"Eternal Security" is also known as "once saved always saved," or "perseverance of the saints." In other words, once someone accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior, there is nothing that he or she can do to separate himself/herself from God, and they will always be saved. This is a false doctrine. The following passages show, without any doubt, that those who believe in Christ can fall away if they do not practice righteousness.

Bible texts that refute "eternal security"

Bible Text

Description Of Blood Bought Believer

Description Of Sin

Description Of Believer After Sin

Ezekiel 3:20; 18:24-26

righteous turns away, commits iniquity die in sin
EZE 3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
EZE 18:24 ¶ But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 18:25 ¶ Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?18:26 When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Matthew 25:1-13

took lamps and went to meet Christ 5 were foolish "I do not know you"
Matthew 25:14-30

Christ's own slaves hid talent wicked lazy, cast into outer darkness, weep & gnash
Luke 8:13

receive word with joy, believe temptation, persecution fall away
LUK 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 9:62

put hands to plow of kingdom looked back to former life not fit for kingdom
LUK 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
Luke 12:42-48

steward in charge of Christ's servants beat slaves, drunkenness cut in pieces, assign with unbelievers
John 15:1-6

branches does not abide thrown away, dried up, burnt
JOH 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Acts 4:32;5:1-11

of those who believed lied to Holy Spirit God struck dead
Acts 8:9-24

Simon the sorcerer believed, baptized, received HS offered money heart not right, wickedness, gall of bitterness, bond of iniquity
Acts 20:17,28-30

elders, shepherds of church false doctrine drawn away
Romans 11:13-23

wild olive, grafted in v17, stand by faith V20 unbelief, not continue V20,22 not spared, cut off V21-22
ROM 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: ROM 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. ROM 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. ROM 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
1 Corinthians 9:26-27

Apostle Paul, preached to others body not slave Paul disqualified
1 Corinthians 10:1-12

standing (feel they are saved) V12 immorality, crave evil, grumble, fall V12
Galatians 2:11-14

Apostle Peter false doctrine, hypocrisy Literal Greek "stood condemned" V11
Galatians 5:4

severed & fallen indicates previously joined and standing seeking to keep OT severed from Christ, fallen from grace
GAL 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Galatians 6:1

restore indicates once saved caught in trespass needed to be restored
GAL 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
1 Timothy 1:18-20

Hymenaeus, Alexander: shipwreck indicates they once sailed good. rejected faith and good conscience, blasphemed their personal faith shipwrecked, delivered to Satan
1 Timothy 4:1

fall away indicates once saved false doctrine fall away from faith
1TI 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1 Timothy 5:8

passage addressed to Christians doesn't provide for family denied faith, worse than unbeliever
1TI 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
1 Timothy 6:10

passage addressed to Christians love of money wandered from faith, pierced selves with pangs
1TI 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
2 Timothy 2:16-18

Hymenaeus and Philetus: gone astray indicates once correct False doctrine: resurrection past gone astray, upset other's faith as well
Hebrews 3:12

brethren evil, unbelieving fall away from God
HEB 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hebrews 4:1-2,11

brethren, addressed to Christians unbelief, disobey short of God's rest, fall
Hebrews 6:4-8

once enlightened, tasted heavenly gift, partakers of HS, Bible & powers to come, renew indicates restore to former cleanness sin fallen away, can't renew, crucified Christ again and put in open shame
Hebrews 10:26-31

received knowledge of truth. no longer remains indicates they once had forgiveness sinning willfully no forgiveness of sin, fearful judgment
Hebrews 10:38-39

God's righteous, Christians shrinks back God has no pleasure in him, destruction
James 5:19-20

brethren, Christians strays from truth, sin soul will die in sins, sinner
JAM 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; JAM 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
1 Peter 5:8

Christians sin devoured by devil
1PE 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
2 Peter 2:1

Christians, "among you" had been bought by Christ false prophets swift destruction
2PE 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:20-22

escaped defilements of world by Christ, entangled again, returns to mire indicates they were once untangled and clean, known way of righteousness, had washed entangled, overcome, turned away, returns to vomit/mire last state worse than first, better they never had became Christians
2PE 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2PE 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2PE 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
2 Peter 3:17

beloved, Christians carried away, fall from own steadfastness
2PE 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2 John 8-9

Christians, have accomplished not abide in doctrine, false doctrine lose, no reward doesn't have God
2JO 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 2JO 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Revelation 2:4-5

Christians in Ephesus left first love fallen, lampstand removed
REV 2:4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. REV 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Revelation 3:5

Christians in Sardis deeds incomplete are dead
REV 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 3:16-17

Christians in Laodicea lukewarmness spit out of Christ's mouth
REV 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. REV 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:


Topical organization of scriptures that refute "Eternal Security"

Parable of sower: Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13), "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away." Fallen from grace passage: Galatians 5:4, "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Pruning passages: John 15:5-6, "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Romans, 11:19-23, "You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again." Hebrews Passages: Hebrews 6:4-6, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame."

Hebrews 10:26-27, "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."

Hebrews 10:38-39, "Now the just shall live by faith: ; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul." Doctrinal Apostasy passages: Acts 20:17,28-30, "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church...I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."

1 Timothy 1:18-21, "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander"

2 Timothy 2:16-18, "But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some."

1 Timothy 4:1, "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"

1 Timothy 6:20-21, "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called knowledge-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."

2 Peter 2:1, "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."

2 Peter 3:17, "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness."

2 John 8-9 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."

Moral Apostasy passages: 1 Timothy 6:9-10, "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang."

2 Peter 2:20-22, "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, A dog returns to its own vomit, and a sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

James 5:19-20, "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."

Revelation passages: Revelation 2:4-5, "'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent."

Revelation 3:5, 'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels."

Revelation 3:16-17, "So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing, and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked." Old Testament passages: Ezekiel 18:24-26, "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."


Other scriptural arguments that refute "Eternal Security"

The fact the Bible exhorts to faithfulness proves one can be lost:
  1. be "stedfast, unmoveable" (1 Corinthians 15:58).
  2. "For if these things be in you" (2 Peter 1:5-11).
  3. "we shall reap, if we faint not" (Galatians 6:9).
  4. "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).
  5. practice these things and God will be with you (Philippians 4:9).
Man has a free will: Joshua 24:15, "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." The Bible clearly prophesied some would fall away: Acts 20:28, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

1 Timothy 4:1, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" Christians are to restore the fallen: Galatians 6:1, "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted."

James 5:19-20, "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

Your name can be blotted out of the book of life:

Exodus 32:32-33, "Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

Deuteronomy 9:14, "Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they."

Deuteronomy 29:20, "The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven."

Psalms 69:28, "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."

Revelation 3:5, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." After God forgives your sin, you can lose your salvation by not forgiving others:

Matthew 18:23-35, "Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."





Posted by: Kristie

Thank you JG! I do not want to hurt a new believer either, but I will not quibble on the truth of Gods word and have their blood on my hands. Gods word is not up for argument in my mind. His word is truth, and that is all I will speak. I feel I would be hurting a new Christian if I pittypatted around the question, wont do it. Better for all Christians, including new ones, to have the truth and save their lives then to not have it and lose their lives.
YSIC :-)



Posted by: earlanderson

Oh this is such a big subject and I feel we are not all on the same page.
correct me if I am wrong but does it not say
Matt 24:13
13 But he that shall endure unto the end , the same shall be saved.
KJV

Eternal is forever and that includes heaven so to me it sounds like we have to worry about getting kicked out of heaven.
I know JG and he is my friend and will always be my friend and I love the teaching that he has brought on the subject.
I remember a young man in prison that was told by his pastor, once saved always saved. At 15 the church that his family went to had the biggest youth group in town because he was an evangelist. At 16 he went into drugs and sex, at 45 I met him in jail, broken and near death. There were those out there that wanted to kill him and his body was in very bad shape.
The Holy Spirit did not ask me to teach him about being able to lose his salvation. The Holy Spirit had me tell him about the great love of God our Father. His heart was very hard at that time and as JG has taught me so many times, it is the love of God that breaks the stony heart.
I just believe that once we get to heaven that we don't have to worry about messing up like Adam and Eve did in the garden or like Satan did in heaven.If I am wrong please give me scripture because I delight in the truth.



Posted by: Christian mom

Praise God!


Thank you Lord, for Jerry. The wisdom You have blessed him with, and the love he has for your TRUTH, is a blessing to all.



I love all the references and Scripture, Pastor.


TRUTH......what a beautiful thing!



Posted by: Kristie

This just came to me from Prophetic Ministries and it reminded me of this thread, it is good and explains it well, so posting.

There is a doctrine that is widely taught and believed as Gospel called, "Once saved always saved". But is this truly what the Bible teaches? God HAS NOT locked us into a contract that we cannot get out of. Everyday we have the choice of giving the free gift of salvation back to Him and walking back into the world. You say, "Who would CHOOSE to do that?" Let us see what they Scriptures tell us:

Ezekiel 3:20 "And if the righteous TURNS BACK from living righteously and take up with evil when I step in and put them in a hard place, they'll die. If you haven't warned them, they'll die because of their sins, and NONE OF THE RIGHT THINGS THEY HAVE DONE WILL COUNT FOR ANYTHING--and I'll hold you responsible.

James 4:17 He that KNOWS TO DO GOOD and DOESN'T DO IT, to him it is sin.

Romans 6:24 The wages of sin is death…" (Physically and spiritually)

Judas was numbered among the 12 Apostles and was given the POWER of the Holy Spirit to preach, teach and perform mighty miracles using Jesus' name. He was told that his name was written down in heaven in the Book of Life along with the other Apostles. Yet he DID NOT endure to the end as a faithful believer. The Scriptures tell us that he was a thief, stealing money that came into the Lord's ministry. Instead of repenting and asking the Lord for strength to overcome this sin, he continued to nurture it until he finally betrayed the Lord for 30 pieces of silver. On the night that Jesus was to be taken into custody, Judas allowed himself to be completely possessed by Satan himself. After betraying Christ, he went out and hanged himself committing suicide. Judas made the conscience decision to DIE IN HIS SINS.

Here we see the Salvation process working in REVERSE.

1. The Holy Spirit was REMOVED from him, which is the "seal of God" upon his life.

2. Judas name was REMOVED or blotted out of the Book of Life.

3. At his death his spirit DID NOT go to heaven, but went directly to Hell.

4. Now he awaits the FINAL JUDGMENT of being thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Let's take these one by one and see what the Scriptures tell us:

1. King David KNEW that the Spirit of God given to a person COULD BE REMOVED. He saw that take place in the life of King Saul. He had been anointed of God with His Holy Spirit and did mighty things by His power. For many years the Lord tried to work with him to repent and turn from his evil ways, but he continually REFUSED the help of the Holy Spirit. King Saul WILLFULLY chooses to follow his on heart rather than God, until one day the Lord REMOVED HIS HOLY SPIRIT from him completely. Immediately an evil spirit took the Holy Spirit's place in his life. Once the Holy Spirit leaves a person, He will NEVER RETURN.

I Samuel 16:14 In that very moment THE SPIRIT OF GOD left Saul and in its place a black mood sent by GOD settled on him. He was terrified.

King David said to the Lord:

Psalm 51:11 DO NOT THRUSHED ME AWAY FROM YOUR PRESENCE; and DO NOT TAKE YOUR HOLY SPIRIT FROM ME. When the Lord finally REMOVES His Holy Spirit this takes place:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST,

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away (COMPLETELY), to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2. Moses KNEW that a person or an entire nation of people could have their names REMOVED or blotted out of the Book of Life. The Lord had put up with the daily trespasses and gross sins of the nation of Israel for forty years. One day, TESTING Moses, He said, "I will DESTROY these people…" Moses falling on his face before God cried out, "If You will refuse to forgive them, then BLOT MY NAME OUT OF YOUR BOOK as well!"

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I WILL NOT BLOT HIS NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

3. When a person truly repents of their sins and calls on the "name of the Lord", (even on their death bed) Christ will save their soul and take them to heaven.

Luke 23:42 And he (the thief on the cross) said unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

But people who turn their back on the Lord and "go back into the world" will be lost. The Apostle Paul mentions a minister by name who "deserted him" and turned his back on the Lord.

For DEMAS has deserted me--loving, as he does, the present age--and has gone to Thessalonica; Crescens has gone to Galatia, and Titus to Dalmatia. II Timothy 4:10

Jesus had many Disciples. One day He gave them a lesson using a figure of speech telling them, "Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you will have no part with him." We are told that most of them did not like what he said and left him that day. He turned to the twelve and said, "Do you also want to leave?" But they remained. Jesus said that only those that remained connected to the Vine (himself) would live or have eternal life. Those who willfully chose to walk away sealed their fate for damnation. The same is true today.

Jesus spoke of the plight of these "ministers" come JUDGMENT DAY:

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me ON THAT DAY, "'Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name expelled demons, and in Thy name performed many mighty works?'

Matthew 7:23 "And then I will tell them plainly, "'I NEVER KNEW YOU: be gone from me, you doers of wickedness.'

4. Persons in whom the Holy Spirit has been REMOVED from their life and whose names have been REMOVED from the Book of Life, now await their FINAL JUDGMENT from the throne:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.

Although God KNEW before the world was formed who would accept His free gift of salvation and who wouldn't, He still created them and gave each one of them the same opportunity to hear the Gospel message and receive salvation. It WAS NOT God that predestined them to HELL without giving them a chance to make an informed choice. Every person born into this world is given an equal opportunity to hear the Gospel message and make up their own mind for or against God. God DOES NOT send anyone to Hell. If we REFUSE His free gift of salvation, WE SEND OUR OWN SELVES TO HELL!

There is a faithful saying:

"You don't have to go to heaven if you don't want too; but you will go to hell whether you want too or not."

For those of you that have been taught and have believed in the doctrine ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, I challenge you to use as fervently search the Scripture and you will see that this doctrine is also false. You say, "How can a person LOSE their salvation?" You don't LOSE your salvation by MISTAKE.

Jesus in His prayer to the Father said,

"All of those that You have given Me, I HAVE LOST NONE!"

We don't LOSE our salvation, we REFUSE it. Little by little we no longer choose to remain with the Lord and we revert back into our old sinful ways and eventually CHOOSE to walk away from the Lord and His free gift of salvation. No one would ever say, "I don't want to remain saved until the day of my redemption. I want to go to hell." But by our daily actions we say this until one day we who were once CONVERTS, now REVERT back into the world. If we remain that way we will be eternally lost.



Posted by: son of God

Dear JC FReak,

I am writing under my husbands login name so what Im about to write does not depict his belifs on the subject matter under this login name. I too used to attend a baptist church and have been a christian for aprox 3 1/2 years. I became very perplexed at some of the stuff taught it sounded good in the What baptists belive book but it didnt add up when I started to think about certain subjects like salvation ( I am not dissing on Baptists I love my brothers and sisters in Christ) There was a big up roar at my old churh about a man I never saw or new He had not attended church for sevral years and had committed suicide I had trouble sitting through a sermon hearing how a man who hung himself was in heaven when I did not see how that could line up with the scriptures he evedently wasnt living a Christian life .

I was told by a deacons wife that if someone denys christ and had professed them earlier in life they were never saved at all. And if someone is sinning theyr still saved if they still profess Jesus because once saved always saved. I had issues with this because pepole were willfully sinning because they bascially looked at themselves having fire insuranse for saying a prayer asking Jesus in ther heart so they could still do what was wrong in the eyes of the Lord because God was Gracious and would forgive them and they felt completly safe.

I started checking out Pentecostal churches ( I am not diising on pentecostals either I love them too theyr my brothers and sisters in Christ)were I met my husband and I was told that you could loose your salvation I evan had a woman approach my husband whom at the time I was only dating she was concerned I was not saved because she had not heard me sp[eak in tongues(you do not need to speak in tongues to be saved its just a misconception to those who put to much imphasis on this subject that gets the gospel sadly distorted) But the way it was brought across it just sounded like you could walk down the street and just loose YOur salvation That made no sense to me either I dont agree you just loose Jesus.

There are scriptures to support the sovernty of God and the `responsability of man. And I belive both its very dangerous to just take a few scriptures and run wild with them and not acknowledge the other. It is to easy to go to One extreme or the other. We are just human we can never have full understanding we are just called to belive and I belive THE WHOLE WORD OF GOD. we are called to belive all of it and on issues like this there needs to be balance.

As I stated earlier its easy for pepole to willfully sin when theyr just gung ** on once saved always saved If someone is claiming to be a follower of Christ and theyr living a life of fornication,being a drunkard worshipping material possions and indulging in the desires of flesh.

As a Christian brother or sister you go up to that individual and teach and show them the scriptures of Galations 5 and at the end of reading Galations 5 it will state " as I have told you in time past , that theywhich do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." might also read Corinthians and Ephesians with them.

So they might Repent and come back to the Lord because if we truly are serving the Lord we will read his word and do it and apply and if this person does not repent they can not inherit the kingdom of God.And you should put them out until they repent and allow the world to take them so they might come into repentance But the sovernty of God allows us to come back to him if we come with a true repentive heart kinda like the prodigal son. On the other hand if Iwere talking to a Christian who is always always afraid they lost there salvation every time they mess up I would bring forth the scriptures of his sovernty and pray with them because they have a repentive heart and are still scared they lost their Jesus. Its just balance withthe scriptues thats how I belive.but one thing I do pass on its better to safe than sorry dont ride the fence one foot in the world the other in Christ its dangerous Its all or nothing!!!

for he talks about in Revlation hed rather us be Hot or Cold instead of Luke warm I dont want to be spewed out like vomit if Im luke warm. Id rather be fire hot for Jesus and the Word of God. then be spewed like vomit and burning in hell because I figured it was ok to live in sin because in my ignorance saying my God is a AGracious And forgiving God. its a scary place for someone to be!!!!!!!

May you continue to search the scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit to internalize the trur meaning in youGod Bless Servantswife




Posted by: lostseed

I believe if you are Truly saved you are okay. You will
mess up, but Christ says he will not stop working in you
until his work is done. I think once you give Christ your
life, its not yours anymore, you can try to do what you
want but only go so far, until the Spirit Convicts you
and there we go crying to God for his mercy.



Posted by: MarkSentMe

It doesn't sound to me that you are confused at all! You got it!
Now if we can just convince the unbelievers, the skeptics and the doubters out there that it is THAT easy!



Posted by: JG

JC_FREAK
earlanderson
son of God
lostseed


Please read my Post #10
There are over 30 people who were saved and lost their salvation.

The Word of God is very clear.
God will do His job but we have a job to do also.

We have freewill and can chose and some do chose not to serve the Lord.

So please read the chart I put up there. It shows the responsibility we have.

Yes we have security but it is up to us to stay in the face of the Lord. The Lord said as long as we haver breath we can be saved.

Remember it is where you are with the Lord when you die that matters
EZE 18:26 When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

The key here is if you die in your sin you do not go to heaven.
That is God's Word.

But if you have a wisper of a breath and ask for forgiveness you go to heaven.




Posted by: Kristie

JG,
I have a question for you. How can you tell if someone has a reprobate mind, and do you believe that someone with a reprobate mind is totally hopeless? Billy Graham said this below and I am assuming he is referring to a reprobate mind. I am just learning about such so appreciate anything you can tell me. I have had a fear over Kevin on this matter. The way he continually repeats the same sin and repents then does it again, over and over. I know last time he was out, God whipped up on him quite good apparently because I never seen anyone so broken, yet I do not understand how someone can become that broken, and then a year later repeat the same offense against God. I have felt that is it for sure a demon spirit of adultery/lust that he has never been completely delivered of, or maybe just a lack of really believing God punishes him in this life, I dont know. I know he loves the Lord, claims to pray everyday, knows the gospel, believes himself that he is saved, and even has told me that God thumbs him for his wrongs, leads him to the bible and before him will be scripture warning him about what he is doing. But this in itself frightened me when I read something Juanita Bynum said about repropate mind, which she described if I remember correctly, as a person who thinks they are saved, are okay, but they are not, I guess a person who reasons their sin. But then again, someone who trys to get by on this once saved always saved theory could use this same rationale and it would not mean they have a repropate mind. See my confusion, how do you know the difference between a person with a reprobate mind and someone who is just a worker of inquity, someone who trys to reason their sin away, or backslidden state?

This is what Billy Graham said to a question about if we sin and do not have the chance to ask God forgiveness before we die, say a Christian who gets drunk and dies in a car crash, will their salvation be lost. BG told them no, they would still be saved and go to Heaven, but.....

The Bible also warns that when we repeatedly turn away from God, we can reach a point of no return. The reason isn't because God won't forgive us, but because our hearts have grown so cold and hardened because of sin. God still calls us but we are too insensitive to hear His voice. The other criminal who was crucified with Jesus scorned Him to the end—a sober warning against a heart that has become calloused (see Luke 23:39).

Which I was not real comfortable with BG's answer on the first part actually. Some could take it as a license to sin and it will be okay if they get caught off guard by death while in sin. I agree if you commit a unconscious sin and die before you repent, I believe most Christians sin every day in some way or another, if nothing but a thought that we do not even realize that we are sinning. There is a big difference between those kinds of sins and knowingly going out and sinning and making it okay to do in your own mind, caring more about committing the sin then you do about Christ and what He did for you on the cross. Which is my husband, the sin is obviously stronger then God in his life, so does that make him a repropate mind? Obviously he broke down last year and gave his life back to the Lord, and he cried out to God last June over his sin of lust, but here he is again six months later doing it again. Can we pray for a repropate minded person and they be restored to Christ?

Just picking your mind on this thing..like I said, this is a new topic for me and one that has me worried about my husband.

Thanks and God bless..



Posted by: JG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristie
if we sin and do not have the chance to ask God forgiveness before we die, say a Christian who gets drunk and dies in a car crash, will their salvation be lost. BG told them no, they would still be saved and go to Heaven, but.....

The Bible also warns that when we repeatedly turn away from God, we can reach a point of no return. .


Dear Kristie:

I would never dream of touching BG's anointing.
I have not walked in the shoes he has walked in.

But that is why I love the clarity of the Word of God.
Even Paul said I fear I may lose my salvation 1 Corinthians 9:26-27
Eze 18 said as long as you have breath but if you die in your sin your righteousness will not be remembered.

Because we love our family and friends we want to make a way for them.
That is why the word is very clear
Work out your salvation with fear (reverence) and trembling.

We love our spouses and children and mothers and fathers so much we are praying for an exception. Yet there is none.

Pure love will yell at the child when they stick their hand in the fireplace.
Not because we are mad at them but because we love them
They may not understand the burning log will hurt them but we know it will.
Now there is not exception, if they touch the burning log they will be burned.
It was not God's fault. It was not your fault.
They had to chose not to listen to the people telling them not to.

I have found no matter how much I council or talk until their eyes of understanding are opened they will never see what the Lord is saying.


Please read the chart in post #10 on page one.
It clearly shows the results of sin.
Our flesh will Shout No.
But that is why this site is here

As we stand in the gap for these people so close to hell we are able to push satan back one more day. We are able to ask the Lord for His mercy for one more day so they may make the right decision.

Oh Lord I make up a hedge of protection and take authority over satan's claim on them. Father we plead for mercy as you asked us to so satan can not take them today in Jesus Name.

Father break their heart today
Father show them the goodness of God today
Father let them see Your love today
That will lead to Godly sorrow
That will lead to repentence
That will lead to salvation
That will never be lost. In Jesus Name