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City Council defy court ban on prayer. Buddah didn't die for me. Please pray prayer

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Posted by: JG

Great Falls Presbyterian Church
Local officials defy 4th U.S. Circuit Court ruling about prayer.
Some leaders still invoke Christ's name during public meetings they said Buddah didn't die for me, Allah didn't die for me. And you can't stop me.

BY MICHAEL GARTLAND
Of The Post and Courier Staff

Many local government leaders are openly defying a federal court ruling banning religious-specific prayers at meetings soon after an Upstate town council voted to appeal the decision.

A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals recently ruled that the Great Falls Town Council no longer could invoke Jesus' name at government meetings, setting a precedent that ends a centuries-old American tradition in some states. The ruling applies to all government meetings in South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia and Maryland.

Many tri-county government leaders support Great Falls Town Council's unanimous vote to appeal last Thursday.

"Buddha didn't die for me. Allah didn't die for me. My religion says Jesus did," said Caldwell Pinckney, a Berkeley County councilman. "Nobody can dictate that to me. They cannot dictate the relationship between me and God."

Pinckney said he would continue to pray as he wishes until ordered to do otherwise.

Charleston County Councilman Tim Scott described the ruling as part of a continuing attack on Christianity, and he said he hopes his council will fight back by including Jesus in its prayers.

"We've had Christ-specific prayers even since the ruling," Scott said. "We are at war in defining what Americans believe on a values basis."

In Mount Pleasant, leaders don't expect much to change. Town Councilman Kruger Smith has said a prayer before meetings for the past 15 years, and he doesn't see the court ruling as having any effect on him. Over the years, his prayers have become more general. Twelve years ago, he stopped invoking Jesus' name, Smith said.

"I'm praying to one God, asking for help from the one God believed to exist by all the major religions in the world," he said. "I see nothing wrong with offering a prayer."

Neither does Mount Pleasant Mayor Harry Hallman.

"Kruger's prayers are generally generic," he said. "I don't intend to do anything."

Some local atheists maintain that generic prayers should not be permitted either. Alex Kasman, a board member of the Secular Humanists of the Lowcountry, thinks the word God should be eliminated from all government meetings.

"What's really called for is a complete separation between religion and government," he said. "This is just a small step in the right direction."

Other local leaders cited inclusive prayers from members of diverse faith groups as reason to continue as before. The city councils of Charleston and North Charleston both have such prayers. Yvonne Evans has served on the Charleston City Council for 14 years and doesn't foresee much of a change coming because of the ruling.

"Council is very sensitive when we offer prayers," she said. "The only effect I can see is that it will raise that sensitivity."

North Charleston Mayor Keith Summey said he didn't foresee a change either, but he didn't rule it out.

"It's something I'll have to take up with council," he said. "Our city attorney will be giving us advice."

Some lawyers are holding off on that, though.

Lawyers who represent local governments acknowledge the risk in continuing with religion-specific prayers, but many say they will wait to advise council members until the 4th Circuit Court announces whether it will rehear the case. In his six years as Berkeley County's attorney, Mark Stokes said there never has been a complaint about prayer, and he doesn't expect a lawsuit. Attorneys for Charleston and Dorchester counties did not return telephone calls for comment.

"I'm just taking a wait-and-see approach," Stokes said. "I'm not going to express an opinion (to council) until the decision comes out."

An attorney for the city of Charleston said City Council would continue to allow prayers that refer to specific religions and that this would be within the law as long as the council doesn't show preference to one group.

"A public body cannot show preference," said Charleston City Attorney Adelaide Andrews. "City Council has been very thoughtful about this. The mayor allows a different council member to give a prayer at every meeting."

Alice Paylor, the attorney for the Charleston County School District, said she would discuss the matter with the school board, but she acknowledged that prayers now have to be non-sectarian.

"I want them to be aware of it," she said.

The board's chairwoman, Nancy Cook, said she is aware of it but will continue to rotate prayers from people of diverse backgrounds.

"Until the appeal goes through, I'm still going to do business like we do it," Cook said.

Such an approach could spell costly lawsuits for governments already strapped for cash, legal experts say.

O'Neal Smalls, a law professor at the University of South Carolina, noted that the ruling's precedent applies now.

"Until that decision is determined, it is a precedent," Smalls said. "(Governments) could be sued."

The lawsuit that prompted this debate began in 2001, when Darla Kaye Wynne sued the Great Falls Town Council for invoking Jesus Christ during meetings. Wynne practices Wicca, a neo-pagan, earth-centered religion. She said the prayers were used to ostracize her from the community. After she won a U.S. district court decision, the council appealed, bringing the case to the 4th circuit's three-judge panel.

Council is appealing that decision to the circuit's full panel of 13 judges. If the appeal is denied, town attorney Brian Gibbons said they would bring the case to the U.S. Supreme Court.

"We'll exhaust all legal remedies to address this," Gibbons said.

Some lawyers think the ruling, if upheld, may only serve as a "narrow" precedent, meaning that it isn't applicable to all cases involving sectarian prayer at government meetings.

"It could very well be that it doesn't affect all prayers," Smalls said.

Leon Stavrinakis, a lawyer and Charleston County councilman, said he hopes that's the case. If religious-specific prayers end up costing taxpayers money, though, the practice should end, he said.

"I don't have any problems with it," Stavrinakis said of sectarian prayer. "But it does run afoul of the law. The minute somebody sues, and it costs taxpayers' money, then we need to change what we're doing."

Dorchester County Council Chairman Randy Scott described a more drastic approach.

When asked about how the 4th Circuit Court might enforce it's ruling, Scott didn't take long to reply.

"They can do what they want to," he said. "We're going to pray how we've always prayed -- in Jesus' name."



Posted by: akabezalel

Father, You know the situation far better than we do, You know how wide spread this rot is in the USA better than we do, You know the hearts of the men and women that sit on the councils and in the seat of Judgement. I ask for their Salvations Lord. Bring those who do not know Jesus to their Salvation! Take those who do know Jesus as Lord and Savior and teach them to stand up against this tide of luke warm prayers and to pray with the strength that comes only from You! Make all of them hungry and thirsty for righteoisness and Jesus! Father, I release Darla Kaye Wynne into Your hands to bring her to repentance and Jesus for her Salvation! In the Name of Jesus, AMEN!



Posted by: JG

Thank You Carol for standing with me on this. These men and woman have had enough of the terrorism from non belivers. Taking God out of everything is the same as making or establishing laws for religion.

Father I pray for wisdom, courage and faith for all these men and women in Great Falls South Carolina.




Posted by: StarChilde

May God and His Truth Prevail in this situation, and all like it~



Posted by: bettyann

The religious freedom of our country is what enables an atheist to state his beliefs and not endure persecution, and yet they think that we believers in God are not entitled to this same basic freedom? Not so. "Consider what God has done" Ecclesiastes;7,13



Posted by: Emmanuel Kila

God is on your side; in the name of Jesus, the name above above all other names. Our All mighty God is not going to all this nonsense to take place, how-ever he is a forgiving God and is also so patient. Therefore pray for the leaders so the they will be forgiven for their ignorance. Allow the will of God to take place in their lives and let his holy spirit do the rest.



Posted by: prayyior

NEWS BRIEFS (http://headlines.agapepress*****/archive/8/162004h.asp)
...Hurricane Charley has ruined both houses and houses of worship in Punta Gorda and Port Charlotte, Florida -- but Christians there still gathered for Sunday worship. At Christ the King Lutheran Church, which was damaged, Rev. LeeRoy Martin put out a hand-painted sign advertising outdoor services and set up folding chairs with a Bible on each seat. He says, "You realize the significance of spiritual values when everything else is blown away." Some worshipers seeking a break from the chaos arrived in their Sunday best. Others came in sweat-stained shirts and jeans muddied from cleaning yards or salvaging homes. All sought to have their spirits lifted through prayer and fellowship. Rev. Scott Borden's church sanctuary was destroyed by the hurricane, but he said, "I believe that God is at work, even in Charley."

...Just north of Punta Gorda, pastors have been told they can no longer pray in the name of Jesus when asked to open city council meetings with prayer. The St. Petersburg Times says for years, pastors in the Tampa, Florida, area have given invocations at council meetings that praised Jesus Christ and referred to Him as the "only God" or the "highest authority." But council chairwoman Gwen Miller sent a memo recently that said all invocations must now be nonsectarian.


Lord Jesus...we pray for America. Let this Nation turn back to you! Father, forgive us, and remind us to pray continually for this Nation and for your presence and your protection and for your help. Thank You Lord for Loving us so. Amen and Amen