Pages: 1

Just Curious

(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: Warrior in God's A.I.T.

Jerry,

I'm curious as to how these verses apply in the church today. If this is Jesus telling us not to use titles, then why is the use of titles encouraged in the church?

Matt 23:8-10
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
KJV


Posted by: StarChilde

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior in God's A.I.T.
Jerry,

I'm curious as to how these verses apply in the church today. If this is Jesus telling us not to use titles, then why is the use of titles encouraged in the church?

Matt 23:8-10
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
KJV
If I may so express my views on this. I believe that one must take into consideration the CONTEXT of the verses here. Prior to saying this, Jesus was talking about the Scribes and the Pharisees. How they could talk the talk, but not walk the walk. They were hypocrites of the worst kind. I believe that Jesus was in essence saying, do not want to be called Rabbi in the sense that these men are, who have exalted themselves above men thinking that they are better than anyone else. Thinking that only they have the answers.
remember, at the time of Christ, these men had huge powers, and were as somewhat legal, making laws for the ppl much as our judicial system today does. If they said JUMP, you were not even suppose to ask how high. You were suppose to start jumping.
In saying that none be called Masters, it is because in Christ Jesus, we are all equal. And it is Jesus Christ who is to be our Master.And in saying we are to call no man Rabbi, or master, it is because we are to make no one our authority in matters of Christianity, to be no one over Christ Jesus, and His Authority.
Anyhow, that is how I see it, if that helps you out. God bless.


Posted by: Warrior in God's A.I.T.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarChilde
If I may so express my views on this. I believe that one must take into consideration the CONTEXT of the verses here. Prior to saying this, Jesus was talking about the Scribes and the Pharisees. How they could talk the talk, but not walk the walk. They were hypocrites of the worst kind. I believe that Jesus was in essence saying, do not want to be called Rabbi in the sense that these men are, who have exalted themselves above men thinking that they are better than anyone else. Thinking that only they have the answers.
remember, at the time of Christ, these men had huge powers, and were as somewhat legal, making laws for the ppl much as our judicial system today does. If they said JUMP, you were not even suppose to ask how high. You were suppose to start jumping.
In saying that none be called Masters, it is because in Christ Jesus, we are all equal. And it is Jesus Christ who is to be our Master.And in saying we are to call no man Rabbi, or master, it is because we are to make no one our authority in matters of Christianity, to be no one over Christ Jesus, and His Authority.
Anyhow, that is how I see it, if that helps you out. God bless.



Thanks, Starchilde, but that still doesn't make a lot of sense. I understand the context of the verses but the fact remains that Jesus was being rather vehement here! In the original text Jesus was basically saying, "Don't let people elevate you by calling you by some special title!"


Posted by: StarChilde

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior in God's A.I.T.
Thanks, Starchilde, but that still doesn't make a lot of sense. I understand the context of the verses but the fact remains that Jesus was being rather vehement here! In the original text Jesus was basically saying, "Don't let people elevate you by calling you by some special title!"
As quoted from Wesley:
Mat 23:8-10 - The Jewish rabbis were also called father and master, by their several disciples, whom they required, To believe implicitly what they affirmed, without asking any farther reason; To obey implicitly what they enjoined, without seeking farther authority. Our Lord, therefore, by forbidding us either to give or receive the title of rabbi, master, or father, forbids us either to receive any such reverence, or to pay any such to any but God.


Posted by: JG

In the book of acts the bible very clearly used titles.

Peter, James were called apostles
Paul called himself an apostle many times
Paul said many times I am an apostle.

Stephen was called a deacon and an evangelist
Philip was called an evangelist

Even woman had the title of apostle.

The word presbyter is also the same word for elder

Then you have bishop or overseer

Apostles
Phrophets
Pastors
Teachers
Evangelist.

I thinkyou get the Idea.


Posted by: Rachel R

I was just wondering which titles upset you.


Titles can function as a sorting process so we can know what a person is functioning as. Like mailman or doctor or teacher or businessman.

But in church they can be a real stumblingblock of pride.


They can also cause professional Christians to elevate themselves and set themselves apart.


Ever been called 'the laity'? That's a good one.


Rachel R


Posted by: Warrior in God's A.I.T.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JG
In the book of acts the bible very clearly used titles.

Peter, James were called apostles
Paul called himself an apostle many times
Paul said many times I am an apostle.

Stephen was called a deacon and an evangelist
Philip was called an evangelist

Even woman had the title of apostle.

The word presbyter is also the same word for elder

Then you have bishop or overseer

Apostles
Phrophets
Pastors
Teachers
Evangelist.

I thinkyou get the Idea.



I have looked but I still cannot find anyplace where someone is addressed by a title like, "Apostle Paul" or "Bishop Timothy". I see titles used as identifiers, as in "Paul, an apostle", but never as a form of address. That is my question... when did "Bishop so-and-so" or "Pastor Jerry" get to be the accepted norm and why? I understand that there are offices in the church... I don't understand why I need to address the holder of one of those offices as anything other than an EQUAL in the body of Christ.


Posted by: Warrior in God's A.I.T.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel R
I was just wondering which titles upset you.


Titles can function as a sorting process so we can know what a person is functioning as. Like mailman or doctor or teacher or businessman.

But in church they can be a real stumblingblock of pride.


They can also cause professional Christians to elevate themselves and set themselves apart.


Ever been called 'the laity'? That's a good one.


Rachel R



Pretty much all titles in the "Church" bother me, Rachel, just like it bothers me that the "Church" expects people to volunteer to do everything from clean toidys to lead worship when the Bible is really clear that those who serve in God's House should be well paid for their service... that's what the tithe and offerings are for. NOT just to line the pockets of the few in charge. But that's a whole different can of worms.


Posted by: JG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior in God's A.I.T.
I have looked but I still cannot find anyplace where someone is addressed by a title like, "Apostle Paul" or "Bishop Timothy". I see titles used as identifiers, as in "Paul, an apostle", but never as a form of address. That is my question... when did "Bishop so-and-so" or "Pastor Jerry" get to be the accepted norm and why? I understand that there are offices in the church... I don't understand why I need to address the holder of one of those offices as anything other than an EQUAL in the body of Christ.

ROM 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
ROM 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
1CO 1:1 Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
1CO 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
1CO 9:2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
1CO 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
GAL 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
EPH 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
1PE 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2PE 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

How much more do you need
Both Paul and Peter introduced themselves
As Paul an Apostle
As Peter and Apostle

That my friend is the definition of title.

I hope this helps

In Greek you could also say
Apostle Paul of Jesus Christ
Apostle Peter of Jesus Christ

In greek it reads literally
Paulos Apostolos Iesous Christos

Transsations
Paul the Apostle of Jesus
Apostle Paul of Jesus

By placement it is a title of authority
All of these are titles of authority

I hope this helps my friend.
We must learn to embrace authority

Quote:
don't understand why I need to address the holder of one of those offices as anything other than an EQUAL in the body of Christ.

You see a seperation of authority here. If the Holy Spirit honored them how much more shoul we
ACS 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.


Posted by: Warrior in God's A.I.T.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JG
ROM 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
ROM 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
1CO 1:1 Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
1CO 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
1CO 9:2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
1CO 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
GAL 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
EPH 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
1PE 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2PE 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

How much more do you need
Both Paul and Peter introduced themselves
As Paul an Apostle
As Peter and Apostle

That my friend is the definition of title.

I hope this helps


In Greek you could also say
Apostle Paul of Jesus Christ
Apostle Peter of Jesus Christ


All of these are title of authority
Just as Paul said he was a pastor also



Did you even READ the post?

"Paul, an apostle" is an identifier... "Apostle Paul" is a title, just as "Jerry Gaffney, an evangelist" is an identifier and "Pastor Jerry" is a title.

Titles are too frequently used to exaggerate a person's authority. Why should I call you "Pastor Jerry" when we are both equals in the Body of Christ? Are you somehow better than I am???? Is the blood that Jesus shed for you somehow different than the blood that He shed for me?!?!?


Posted by: JG

I never asked you to call me Pastor Jerry

But I am the Pastor of this board.
What I see is a problem with authority.

To think I spent this time trying to type with
my right hand in a cast
replying to you
and you think I did not read you post show
your true feelings.

You also have no real understanding of Greek
As I explained above
even the Holy Spirit made the seperation
ACS 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

When Paul and Peter exercised the authority of their position as an apostle they expected the brethren would pay attention.

I hope this helps.


Posted by: Warrior in God's A.I.T.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JG
I never asked you to call me Pastor Jerry

But I am the Pastor of this board.
What I see is a problem with authority.

To think I spent this time trying to type with
my right hand in a cast
replying to you
and you think I did not read you post show
your true feelings.

You also have no real understanding of Greek
As I explained above
even the Holy Spirit made the seperation
ACS 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

When Paul and Peter exercised the authority of their position as an apostle they expected the brethren would pay attention.

I hope this helps.



Wow! Touchy aren't we???

Problem is, you STILL haven't bothered to actually look at the previous posts. I don't have a problem making the distinction between the various offices in the church. I have a problem with people demanding that they be addressed by a title instead of as an equal. I also never said that you asked to be called "Pastor Jerry".

The FACT is that Jesus himself told us not to use or allow special titles, yet even you allow people to address you by one. Matt 23:8 tells us that we are equals and that we shouldn't allow people to call us by special titles. Note that the verse puts the burden, not on the general populus, but on the leadership.

I hope this post helps to clarify what I meant to ask in the first place. Sorry to hear that you've injured your hand.