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Rapture (Harvest) will take 50% of Population Matt. 24:38-42

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Posted by: Dr. J

Every man and woman have to hear the Gospel first. 50% of World's Population will be taken. Remember Matthew 24:38-42....2 men in the field 1 will be taken, 2 women in the field 1 will be taken. That's 50% of Worlds population. Currently its around 6.8 Billion so for estimation sakes by END time it will be 3.5 Billion people raptured.

Reference Revelation 14:15, Matthew 24:31


Posted by: Christian Commando

Dr. J- Good sharing. But do have two points to make-1- Remember, Christ came principly to speak to the Jews, thus this reference may not mean for total world population. 2- Keep in mind, God also declares- "Many shall come, but few will enter". There will be alot of people living in this world now and later on, thinking and believing thier "works" make them a Christian. But will be refused by God. 3- Christ declares His sheep hear His voice, recognize It and follow Him. Thus, I would suggest, for the low part of total population of the world's, that Christianity actually makes up, it will be well less than 50% of the world's total poulation. Thank you and God Bless!!


Posted by: Dr. J

1. Yes Christ came for the Jew first, then the Gentile, Remeber were living in the times of the Gentiles. Rom 1:16, Luke 21:24

2. Overall since Christs death that scripture applies "Many shall come, but few will enter" But were talking about the end time revival. There will be and currently in other parts of the World a revival. In many countries many people are turning to Christ. Benny Hinn had a impossible revival in India with a total of 6 million in attendace who knows how many were saved but so many seeds were planted. TBN is doing alot also and many laborers in the field. If this pace continues over the next couple years we will reach all the Worlds population as the Bible predicts. Matthew 24:14

3. Currently the worlds population is not 50% we are working on it...The only requirement in getting to heaven is believing Jesus Christ remember what the Word says....Matthew 24:38-42....2 men in the field 1 will be taken, 2 women in the field 1 will be taken.


Posted by: Christian Commando

Yes, I agree Dr. J. but keep in mind, God and Christ are talking about the day people will be judged, when the goats are seperated from the sheep, as when Christ and His Disciples came across that group doing miracles in Christ's Name. Christ had the Disciples leave them be on first trip thru, but upon thier return thru, that group approached Jesus expecting to be accepted for thier "works", yet Christ told them to leave Him, for He didn't know them. I agree there will be a tremendous outbreak of revival, just remember tho, for our population- total, it's a growth explosion of people as well, around most of the world today, as so much of it is civilized now. I do agree on many of your points made tho for sure. As such I pray you continue your line of thought. Take care Brother and God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

But also christians will be left behind at the rapture, right?
This is scary.


Posted by: Christian Commando

Christ declared- Those who know Me, know My voice and follow it. He declares He knows them also. God declares, in the last days, there shall be a falling away from the faith. If leave the faith altogether away from, God declares that it be made manifest, they were not of us.Many like to claim the last Scripture I refered to only pertains to Ministers. Quite correct, but who in the body of Christ is one? All God's Children. Remember, we are called into the "Great Commission" at rebirth plus we all belong to the "Royal Priesthood" under Christ. God Bless!


Posted by: Dr. J

There are many people who say they are Christians but are not. Salvation is faith in Christ not by works so "Christians" left behind are not Christians at all. Unfortunately many people in the church will be left behind. By then they will realize it was the Rapture..some will be decieved some will not be. Alot of REPENTING WILL TAKE PLACE AFTER THE RAPTURE.


Posted by: Christian Commando

There will be some yes, as God declares while no man can pluck a True Child out of His Hand, they can still choose to leave God on thier own. God declares when this happens, God declares He will prompt them to come back. If still refuse, He will chastize them. If develope a contrite heart, He will eventually let them go to satan but to an early grave- (premature death). (See also the Old Test. story of King Saul seeking after the witch and what happens when don't listen to God or His Word). He was a true Child of God but walked away from Him. God Bless!!


Posted by: newcreature7

Isaiah 55:11

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth.it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please,and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

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The New Testament(Covenant) is part of the Gospel,and will continued to be Preached in the Tribulation to those Left Behind! From the Tribulation Saints,144,000,Ministering Angels,and two Prophets etc.

Many will be saved now,and after the Rapture!
Revelation 14:6

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

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Jesus Christ Is Coming Soon,and Jesus Christ Is Lord!

Rapture prophecy
Sharing Divine Prophecy On The End Times.

http://rulestheweb.com/coolwebsites


Posted by: faithnhim

I am not sure if this is the right place to post this question to you, but please give me some thoughts as to this question: Do you have to be babtized to be saved and enter Heaven? IF you have a relationship with God and you have asked Him into your heart and try to live following Him, do you actually have to go through the ritual of babtism? I am curious for my child. She is not old enough in my opinion to have babtisim (10 yrs old) until she actually asks for it herself. But..if she were to pass would she still be considered saved? Thank you for giving me your views on this topic.


Posted by: Rachel R

I do not believe that salvation is based on baptism.

Baptism is an act of obedience, not a requirement.

And remember, God isn't trying to keep people OUT, he's trying to get them IN.

I'm not sure why you don't think she is old enough.

I was baptized at eight, and remember it vividly.

Anyone old enough to make a decision for Christ should be able to understand the wonderful simplicity of Baptism.

I hope you have training at your church so that she can really learn what it all means.

If you do not, then it is up to you, Mom, to be sure she knows who she is in Christ and her rights and privileges as a citizen of the Kingdom!

Have you got an Awana program nearby. They are the BEST.

God bless you. You sound like a wonderful Mom.

Tell your dear daughter I said Hi.

Rachel R


Posted by: akabezalel

My parents told me I could not go forward for Salvation until I was 10 years old. I disobeyed and answered the call 2 months shy of my 10th birthday. I know what I was doing and yes I was severly punished for answering the call to my heart but I have NEVER regreted one minute of my walk with Jesus!

My own children were both 3 years old when they asked me about Salvation and took Jesus in their hearts and while they may not have been aboe to understand the whole import of the decision at the time they have never walked away either. My daughter wanted to accept Jesus but we needed to reassure her about baptism because she was deathly afraid of water. Her teacher and I both told her that she did not have to be baptised to have Jesus in her heart.

Baptism is an act of obedience and a symbol of our own rebirth, at 10 your daughter may not understand all of what it means but we are told by Jesus Himself to let the little children come to Him and not to forbid them and He said we are to come as little children as well. Their innocent acceptance is more important than our understanding.

I would wait until she asks for Baptism. If she has accepted Salvation then your job is to make sure she can grow in that relationship by encouraging her to read her Bible and pray and help her to build her faith, the Holy Spirit will let her know when to be baptised.


Posted by: huggybob46

The thief on the cross wasn't baptized, and yet Jesus told him "Today you will be with Me in Paradise". So, no, I don't believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, but it is an outward profession to the people in your church and maybe even your community of your decision to follow Jesus. Does that help??


Posted by: eagle4him

Matthew chapter 7: 13-23

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

A Tree and Its Fruit

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Few is not very many! It is certainly not 50% or anywhere near that! Only about 35% of the entire world's population even professes to know Jesus, and of that I venture to say that only about 1/7 of them actually have the "fruit"!

Read the letters Jesus wrote to the 7 churches in Revelation 2,3. Only one of the seven churches had not turned away (backslide). Read especially the letter to the church of Laodicea. That is the church that most resembles the church today. It is also the last church, the one that exists just prior to the return of our Lord!

Jesus says that He will vomit the church out of His mouth! In order for the church to get puked out, it has to be "in" him--in his stomach. Thus we are in Christ!

When Jesus says He stands at the door and knocks--that right there is a problem. What is He doing on the outside? He's supposed to be in us, and us in Him!!!

No, friend, 50% of the world's population is at best only a slim chance! Try 14% of the 35% and you will get a more accurate picture---About 5%, or 3.4 Million!


Posted by: guardianangel

Since we are on the topic of the Rapture, pray for a strengthening of the faith of those who do believe. Can you imagine the horror of realizing that the Rapture has taken place and still being on Earth? I would say that those who realize that they were left would be subject to the worst panic attacks ever known to man.


Posted by: Rachel R

I think LOTS of people are going.

God isn't trying to grade hard to keep people OUT.

He gave his Son to get people IN.

Rachel R


Posted by: sonrise

Having gone thru all the threads pertaining to the "rapture", and many other areas, I am feeling out in left field. As I am in Christ and He is in me, I take on His very nature. I was translated from the old nature and into life. Just as Christ could only say and do as the Father already has said and done, so I do also. Just as God so loved the "world", I love the world and would gladly give my life. When the so called "rapture" happens, or how many people will be taken,just has no importance to me (my opinion). What is important is "thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Our commission is in the present, establishing the finished work here in the earth, walking in dominion as Adam walked in the Garden. Each of us are the Christ in the earth ( "it is no longer I who live, but He who lives in me") and let us become that glorious reflection of the finished work. After all it is Christ who saves!!!


Posted by: Chris Logan

i totally agree and believe the same as sonrise! Good word there sis!



Posted by: oneofgodsworkers

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers.
This to me is one of the sadest verses in the word of God. there are many who think they are saved but they are there for themselves and not for Christ our Lord. how very sad indeed.
brothers let me tell you a little secret WE ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO READ THE HEARTS OF MEN AND THEREFORE WE CANNOT KNOW OR EVEN MAKE AN INTELLIGENT GUESS AS TO THE NUMBER OF SOULS THAT WILL BE SAVED BY THE MIGHTY GRACE OF OUR LORD. But of this we can be sure( as it was in the days of Noah,so shall it be at the coming of the son of man and as it was in the days of lot,so shall it be at the coming of the son of man, But this Gospel Must First be Preached in All Nations.
FRIENDS & BRETHERN be sure that it is in fact the same now as it was in the days of Noah and Lot(GOD LOOKED DOWN AND SEEN THAT THE HEARTS OF MEN WERE CONTINUALY EVIL,AND AS IN SODDOM WHERE THEY SAW NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING GAY EVEN THO GODS WORD STATED THAT IT WAS ABOMINATION UNTO GOD. GAY RIGHTS ARE VERY ACTIVE AND MANY ARE IN ALLEGENCE TO IT NO MATTER WHAT GOD SAYS OR THINKS. SO AS IT WAS IN THE DAYS OF LOT IT IS RIGHT NOW. NOW THIS GOSPEL MUST FIRST BE PREACHED IN ALL NATIONS.
AS FOR OUR LORDS RETURN, NO MAN KNOWETH THE HOUR,NOT THE ANGELS NOR THE SON,BUT ONLY THE FATHER KNOWETH, it was the same in jewish tradition in the wedding customs in the time of our Lord.
the groom would find his bride,talk to her father(who would set a price to be paid for her)then if agreed the bride and her father and the groom to be would seal the agreement over a cup of wine.(if the bride refused to drink of the cup that first the father would drink,then the groom and then the bride if she agreed to the marriage but if not it was off) but if all agreed then the price was paid and the groom would return to his Fathers House and start building a one room mansion and ONLY WHEN THE FATHER SAID IT WAS GOOD ENOUGH WOULD HE ALLOW HIS SON TO GO GET HIS BRIDE.
THEREFORE ONLY THE FATHER KNOW AT WHAT TIME THE SON WILL RETURN TO TAKE POSSESSION OF HIS BRIDE.
AND ISN'T IS REALLY GREAT HOW THAT CHRIST NOT ONLY FULFILLED THE SCRIPTURES WITH HIS LIFE AND DEATH AND RESSURECTION BUT ALSO THE CUSTOMS THAT GOD HAD SETUP FOR HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE. EVEN SO SO SAY COME LORD JESUS AND PRAISE YOU FATHER FOR THIS BLESSED KNOWLEDGE. AMEN


Posted by: huggybob46

Well, I don't know. The Bible says narrow is the way and few are chosen. I think 50% is a very high estimate of how much of the Earth's population will go in the Rapture!!!





Posted by: guardianangel

I pray that not one person goes into torment. I ask for open minds and hearts for the gospel. The 50% that Dr. J estimates is an awesome number. I pray for more than that. Can you imagine only half of your family in heaven? Think of it that way. Each Christian world wide has a family of some sort.

I heard tonight of a prior muslim who converted and has great success explaining the Trinity to muslims who believe we worship three gods using the mutability of water. Water is the same in all three forms: steam, liquid and ice. In each form it is still water. So too is our belief in God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I thought this was a wonderful method of explanation. I ask God to grant this man great success in his conversion of every muslim he encounters, and then those that the converts relay this to.

Father, I ask Your blessing on the attempts to convert the world. Amen.


Posted by: Christian Commando

As far as "Salvation" is concerned, I concure with the answers given for this. Water Baptism is only a ceremonial Law and according to Christ's wording, only necessary for Jewish converts for thier being the first chosen people yet rejecting Christ.

Jesus declared to them-"Be baptised for the remission of sins and recieve the Gift of the Holy Spirit".

Yet you never hear the message of Salvation given that way to Gentiles in God's Word. On the contrary, in Acts, Peter witnesses Gentiles recieving the Holy Spirit as they believed, turning to his fellow Jews asking- should we refuse water baptism to those who have recieved the Holy Spirit just as you and I have?

Concerning the "Rapture", we must remember, after the call to John in Revelation to-"come up hither", there is no other reference made to the "Church" or any part still being on earth.

But, for all the people who had heard the message preached so long before the "Rapture" happens, realize some will recognize what they had heard spoken and will turn to God, against the anti-christ.

The Angel is refering to converts of the Trib Period speaking out God's Gospel with the Bibles they get ahold of to tell others God's Truth.

There are no Scriptures refering to any saints being left behind, but the 144,000 are those according to Rev.7:13-15 shows they are the converts of the Trib. Period that spoke God's Word and Gospel during that Period. This is why they recieve God's "Seal".

After all, these people come from all over earth as converts who spread the Gospel and God's Word after being converted during that time- 7:9.

!4:4- Shows that the 144,000 were the "firstfruits"- (First converts) unto God and to the Lamb, of the Trib. Period, picked from all other converts of that time period.

God Bless!!


Posted by: Missyjojo88

I also don't believe that the number would be 50%. It will be less since it says narrow is the path. There are also the dead who are saved which would make the number higher, but I assume we are only counting the percentage of those who are still alive around that time. The other thing is that there are going to be quite a lot of people who are going to be saved during the Great Tribulation itself, thus making up the number of the Tribulation saints. I don't know if anyone have this feeling, but something tells me that there is going to be significantly high percentage of people saved during the Great Tribulation than those who are ready to be raptured. I feel that many would not be ready when the time comes so that is why most of those who will be saved during the GT are going to have to lose their life. Then we must think of the number of those who actually survive the GT without taking the mark. I would love to know the number of those people, but if I had to guess it would be a million people or less out of 6.5 billion. I would be very surprise if it were higher. I find this thread very interesting although it is speculation at this moment. Once I tried to find out an average estimate of those who would survive the GT, but there are so many variables that need to be solve to figure this one out. Like how many are on earth when the rapture occurs, how many die from the disasters, how many takes the mark, etc. There are too many unknown variables. Although God may not reveal a specific number to us, I wonder if he will give someone the wisdom to come up with an estimate?


Posted by: Favor of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Dr. J- Good sharing. But do have two points to make-1- Remember, Christ came principly to speak to the Jews, thus this reference may not mean for total world population. 2- Keep in mind, God also declares- "Many shall come, but few will enter". There will be alot of people living in this world now and later on, thinking and believing thier "works" make them a Christian. But will be refused by God. 3- Christ declares His sheep hear His voice, recognize It and follow Him. Thus, I would suggest, for the low part of total population of the world's, that Christianity actually makes up, it will be well less than 50% of the world's total poulation. Thank you and God Bless!!
Hello....

I am a newbie, and have shared in another thread on the Mark, but I would like to say, I agree with Christian Commando. Over fourty years ago I came out of the New Age and the Occult. I had accepted Jesus when I was a small child and I know he was in my heart, and has kept me safe through my many years to seeking answers to many, many questions. I will not get into that, but I will say that because of that experience when I came out fourty years ago, and was born again, and started studying (really studying the Bible) I join a church, and at that time when I came out, the New Age had just come out of the closet and started entering the churches. I was like a watchman on the wall, and warned many, and many thought I was nuts.

The mistake many make is that Satan doesn't come in the front door, he comes in the back door through deceptions and pride. And he loves to come to those who seek "experiences"....touchie feely experiences. He loves to come though intellegence and new ways of thinking. But, most of all he come though "tolerance". A great delusion is sweeping the churches right now through Ric Warren's book the Purpose Diven Life and the Purpose Driven Chruch. At first glance when you read his book it sounds so loving and tolerant.....peace, peace, peace. But woven in between people and the lines are New Age teachings, dark and deceiving.

Many Christians in the churches wouldn't know new age teachings if it walke up to them and slapped them in the face, and sad to say the same thing can be said for many pastors, ministers, and priest. What is a shock to know is how many of our shepherds (ministers,priest,and pastors)do not believe the Bible is the Word of God, Jesus is just "a" way, there is no absolute truth, there is no hell or devil.

Because this is happening in the Church...many will follow because everybody it doing it mentality is taking over there thinking process. Jesus said the world will not love us it hated Him and it hates us too, so why does the world love Ric Warren? I believe it does because he is one of them and they know it, but he either doesn't know it because he is blinded by this Luciferistic light, or he is sold out to the New Age. And many Christians are willing walking in darkess of these teachings because so many bought "a lie".

When the Lord returns I fear there will only be a rement.....I pray that many will come to the Lord all around the world but the path is narrow and few that find it and stay on it.

That's my two cents worth right now. God Bless <><


Posted by: Christian Commando

Very enlightening Favor of God, as I've heard the same thing from others about the "Purpose" books, tho haven't had the chance to study them myself to know for sure, tho have heard more warnings about that series than good reports.

But, I have also witnessed dealing with many churches that are much too passive in thier approach to sharing on God's Word, as many haven't wanted to stand on any concepts or precepts solidly.

What we must do, as is for any level of leadership, is pray to God for His Holy Spirit to pour into these people and leaders to bring out solid footed standings on God's Word again and to see satan's influence driven off and a hedge of protection put around our leadership so God can lead us directly strait and narrowly by His Sheperds speaking Truths unshakably directly from God's Word and boldly.

Thats why I love Pastor Jerry Gafney. He speaks the Truth of God strait up, no nonsense, yet with love and compassion of God that is incredible.

God Bless!!


Posted by: Rmartel

Many say that since Isreal became a nation this is a fulfillment of God as he has gathered them up.Yes partially: But the real fulfillment will be when they have a massive exodus unto Jesus after all the scripture was to gather them unto him.( In the Bible )in Jesus time he referred to certain Jews as belonging to the synogugue of satan. Because some of the Jews said they are from Abraham they thought they would be saved but did not know the name of Jesus who was before Abraham. Abraham was saved by Faith in the Lord and because he believed. Revelations speaks about some Jews that need to be discerned by the believer if he truly wants to be spared the hour of Tribulation such as the church of Philadelpia(Rev 3:10.)
Rev 3:10Becausethouhastkeptthewordofmypatience,I alsowillkeeptheefromthehouroftemptation,which shallcomeuponalltheworld,totrythemthatdwellupontheearth.
Now who are these Jews mentioned in (REV.2:9and 3:9 )

Rev 2:9Iknowthyworks,andtribulation,andpoverty,(butthouartrich)andIknowtheblasphemyofthem which say
theyareJews,andarenot,butarethesynagogueofSatan.

Rev 3:9Behold,IwillmakethemofthesynagogueofSatan,which saytheyareJews,andarenot,butdolie;behold,Iwillmakethemtocomeandworshipbeforethyfeet,andtoknowthatIhavelovedthee.

and Well quite frankly Jesus spoke about them in his day and they are one and the same . They are the ones that have not accepted him.They are those he referred to as the synagogue of Satan that said they are from their Father Abraham but did not know Jesus who was before Abraham.

The church of Thyatira that do not have the Doctrine of Jezebel and have not known the depths of Satan.(Rev 2:24)
Rev 2:24ButuntoyouIsay,anduntotherestinThyatira,as many ashavenotthisdoctrine,andwhichhavenotknownthedepthsofSatan,astheyspeak;Iwillputuponyounoneotherburden.
Now the Bible book of Revelations does not say every church shall be spared this hour and raptured.
As a matter of fact it says the opposite(.Rev 2:20)
Rev 2:20NotwithstandingIhaveafew thingsagainstthee,becausethousufferestthatwomanJezebel,which callethherselfaprophetess,toteachandtoseducemyservantstocommit fornication,andtoeatthings sacrificed unto idols.

Rev 2:21AndIgaveherspacetorepentofherfornication;andsherepentednot.

Rev 2:22Behold,Iwillcastherintoabed,andthem that commit adulterywithherintogreattribulation,excepttheyrepentoftheirdeeds.

Rev 2:23AndIwillkillherchildrenwithdeath;andallthechurchesshallknowthatIamhe which searcheththereinsandhearts:andIwillgiveuntoevery oneofyouaccordingtoyourworks.
REV 2:22 speaks of Great tribulation
(Rev 2:10)

Rev 2:10Fearnoneofthosethingswhichthoushaltsuffer:behold,thedevilshallcastsomeofyouintoprison,thatyemaybetried;andyeshallhavetribulationtendays;bethoufaithfuluntodeath,andIwillgivetheeacrownoflife.
Now we have the churches that Jesus says need to overcome the :

Doctrine of Balaam :that is to curse your brother and sisters to put a stumbling block before them. When your brothers and sisters come forth with devine revelation and we are to lazy to hear or research it and say it must be from the devil and we then pray against them and the movement of God. And like Balaam he was enticed by the promise of Honor and gold and silver in that he needed to further check whether he heard right the first time from God.

The Doctrine of Jezebel:Now Jezebel married a Jew and turned Ahab away from our true God . She also slaughter the prophets of the Lord.When you stop a true prophet from speaking the word of God ;what are you doing?
Cutting off his voice and Gods too. Together they set up temples to Baal.

The Doctrine of Nicolataines:According to the wilkepidia "they lead lives of unrestrain" Indulgence" and a Doctrine of Promiscuity.
Have we ever heard of them anythings goes;and we have a licence to continually sin.

Now what about those Jews that do all in their power to stop the spreading of the true christianity even so as to not finance "The passion of christ ".

Yes we will know our true Jewish brother in the great time of this fig bearing fruit (Matt 24) when they truly come and are gathered up By Jesus. Our Jewish brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. I believe this is already happening and will grow even more.
Shall we examine ourselves(Hearts) and find out which church we truly fit into?
Shall we examine the church of Philadelpia (Meaning Brotherly Love )
and have the Key of David truly a man after Gods own heart that would not slay his anointed brother Saul . They have kept his patience spoken of in (1 Cor 13 )

1Co 13:4 Love has patience, is kind; love is not envious; love is not vain, is not puffed up;
and are Holy and true thus the door is open unto them.
Shall we be hot instead of Luke warm.

Evidently to those that are sure they are going to be raptured they know all of this and have overcame.
If you have not then REPENT and ask the Lord for his help so that you may not be caught unprepared in the night.
And remember the sabbath and endeavor to keep it Holy.
Paul had wrote the first day of the week was for collecting the tithe.
Jesus as was his custom went to the Synogogue on the Sabbath.

Mat 24:20Butprayyethatyourflightbenotinthewinter,neitheronthesabbath day:
The true blessing is in the reading of his word and believing it in your heart.
Rmartel


Posted by: Christian Commando

Well, let us not restrict Jesus' Letters to the Churches to only Jews. While He was sent mainly to preach unto the Jews and never went to any Samaritan or pagan settlements, His Teachings are also mean't towards Gentiles who are in the same situation.

Gentile Believers may not be true Jews- (God's First Chosen). But, because Gentiles have now become the "Grafted Branch", realize, Gentile Believers have now become "adopted" Jews, as it were.Therefore, in this instance, it would not be according to God, to signify such Teachings restricted only to Jews.

And Christian research Documentations of the 7 Letters Christ writes to the Churches, also fit accordingly into stages of time periods the "Body of Christ", as a whole, have gone thru over the last 2,000 years.

So look at the last Letter Jesus wrote to the Laodiceans. What He writes of the good points and negatives, all fit into the way the Church of Christ is today.

Rev. 3:9- How many Gentiles out there are claiming to be Christians, yet when posed the question of Salvation, answer with some form of works, not by Grace thru faith. You know then they speak not the Truth.

Rev. 2:9 & 3:9 are of the population of Jew and Gentile unsaved who claim to be Christians, but are not. Because Jesus shows this is going on in several diverse Churchs, thus diverse areas, we cannot assume it is mean't only for one select group located anywheres, but all unsaved who are decieved or intentionally lieing about belonging to God.

Rev. 2:20- I actually see nothing about where that Church will not be spared from the Tribulation. Rather- v 22- "Behold, I cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great Tribulation".

This does no claim a "whole Church", but only those who involve themselves in the harlot's activities and not follow God instead, even tho some will be saved and reborn.

Thats right, but in v 24 it says that "as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, I will put upon you none other burden."Therefore, the Believers who have stayed following God and rejected involvement with following "doctrines of demons", shall not be burdened with what the others who do get involved with evil.

Those staying with God in that Church shall be chastised, but not put thru the Trib Period.

Yes, v 2:22 speaks of "great Tribulation", but only for those involved with evil who have not repented and turned away from it.

Concerning the Sabbath, the reason for setting aside our "tithe on the first day of the week, was for gathering together in fellowship, praise and Worship of God- (Gentile Sabbath). But, Paul also declares for Gentiles, we are not to judge anyone for what day they choose as the Sabbath.

Yes, but it was God who set up the Sabbath for Jews on the last day of the week- (7th day of rest) Which is why it was Jesus' custom, He was Jewish. But this is not so for Gentiles.

Yes, the true Blessings of God do come that way.

God Bless!!


Posted by: Rmartel

Thank you christian Commando. I am also thankful that you study to show yourself approved by the Lord truly. I will remind you of REV3:10.
My Point about the Jews is that like us we need to have Faith in Jesus. This is the make or break situation. I believe the Jewish people coming to Jesus
will be a sign to us.( Matt 24)
Mat 24:32Nowlearnaparableofthefig tree;Whenhisbranchisyettender,andputteth forthleaves,yeknowthatsummerisnigh: Now we know that Jesus cursed a Fig tree and it wither from the root.But in matt 24 i believe Jesus is talking about the sign of the Jewish
people bearing fruit.
Incidently God shows me as a Jewish person.
My last name by the way has a Jewish translation.
"Mar "meaning bitter or to stamp and "Tel " meaning hill= Martel but I must not put Faith in that Name
only Jesus
You said you see nothing to the 7 churches that are spare the rapture . To the church of Philadephia:which shall come upon the whole world.
Rev 3:10Becausethouhastkeptthewordofmypatience,I alsowillkeeptheefromthehouroftemptation,which shallcomeuponalltheworld,totrythemthatdwellupontheearth.
I can see that you put your heart in what you do and
have wondered as well and are watching very good.
And you are one that is overcoming.
My prayers are that all would do this .
As all are not. I pointed out the character of the church
of Philadelphia for a reason. and one reason is listed above there are more.
I feel that we as a church need to recognise our downfalls and the Doctrines Jesus had mentioned because he said so.
You mention also to the church of Thyatira to those that overcome.
Rev 2:24ButuntoyouIsay,anduntotherestinThyatira,as many ashavenotthisdoctrine,andwhichhavenotknownthedepthsofSatan,astheyspeak;Iwillputuponyounoneotherburden.
I agree .
I appreciate that at least you are and continue to study but do all?
Are all Noble Bereans as Paul commended?
Some may be in for a rude wakeup call.
I believe this is coming in our time. And I must be prepared.
I believe the Fruit Of the Spirit Love is most important along with Faith in our hearts.
I believe this will get us thru in the catagory of the church of Philadephia; with patience.
but I do love the word and love to meditate on
it. Jesus had to speak to me about love to desire love ,but I wanted prophecy but I slowed down to recieve this. When I felt hatred for others he would remind me if you hate your brother how can
we say we love God.
I recieved a word from THe AllReds years ago
It was to a group of us . "If you love me you will keep my commandments" and "Books Books Books but very special Books"
Now I have never wrote a book but I have met (as Paul said; "we are Epistles "(Books)) some very special ("Books ") people. And you can tell these people by their writing as well. Because they knew the Lord they were very helpful in my growth and I thank Jesus for them. I had the opportunity to have some that cause my old nature to be put to death . My old selfish nature did not appreciate this so much. But the new creation in Jesus Christ did.
I reason with myself or rather the Lord reasons
with me who would trade the taking of a mark and a meal for Eternity with him. We need to face our
"FEARS" Head on with his help because we all are weak and trade it in for the" Jubilancy "of the Lord.
Thats what I feel I got instead of Fear when I was truly frightened. And I said to the Lord I cannot make it thru Lord. And he answered me.
Satan would attack me as a man thru traumatic experiences.One of these experiences was when I was 6 yrs old.He would not attack the man but the 6 year old thru the doorway of that traumatic experience.Until others prayed for me ;and healing came in and this Door was closed. I say this to help others.
I also truly believe Stephen did not feel any pain when he was put to death as he did not even cry out in pain but had his eyes fixed on Jesus.
This has been helpful to me in my development in Christ.And I have adopted this to be my beleive
in my heart.
Thanks for taking the time all of you to write your concerns and believes as it very well be what someone else needs.
Rmartel


Posted by: Christian Commando

Rmartel-

Please never think I am correcting you ok. What I try to do is share insights along with others, to help get people viewing such discussions to think about our topics and search the Scriptures and be in prayer for God to show them the Truth.

I am quite inspired to read your responces, for they show your sincere interest in studying and learning God's Word also. I pray, between you and select others on this Board will work with me to discuss topics to draw people into seeking God and possibly saving souls thru thier interest to find the Truth and find God as thier Father as well. To say thier peice as well or ask questions that between all of us posting, they can recieve the answer God wants for them to learn.

God Bless!!


Posted by: eagle4him

Since we are talking about "The Rapture" answer this one question. Why was it that the doctrine of "the rapture" was not even taught until the late or mid 1800's?

What if there is no rapture? What if the Bible is only saying in Thesolonians that the dead who died in Christ and those alive in Christ when He comes the second time will be joined together in the New Jerusalem, the new heaven?

Here's what Jesus said in Matthew 24:7-10:

"For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

"But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

"At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.


Posted by: Christian Commando

Rmartel-

I would agree with you about the "Parable of the Fig Tree", except for one point. The natural cycle of growth in a tree shows that it lays dorment thru the winter. In the Spring, it "comes to life" and buds out. But, it takes all Spring, thru Summer and into Fall before it will bear fruit.

Thus, Jesus could not have been speaking of that, but of Isreal becoming a nation. Once the nation has been re-established, after that, it starts showing the fruit of guidance of them. But when a tree's branches or leaves are "yet tender", it has only started to come back to productive life.

You are Jewish- Consider this- God declares all men are of one Blood. Thus, if we were to trace our roots back, they would all be connected to Adam and Eve. Now, which line from Adam and Eve- Cain or Able's, thats the question.

All people's names can be translated from thier native language over to a word or definition in Jewish- (Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic), the principle languages the Jews used thru out time for writing documents.

As for comittment to watching for Christ, God and Christ commanded of us to do this. Thus, why should we do that any less than all other commandments God gives us to live by? All of God's Word is of equal importance. Not just this part or that.

Loving God and loving each other may be the two "greatest of Commandments", they are still not the only ones.

Well, I hae to admit I'm more skeptical about prophecies until I've confirmed them thru Scripture. I've been prophecied over too several times, but only certain ones from particular Leaders have come true as given. And some "so called Prophets" of today, do not think they have to be 100% accurate. Bologne. If not of God, there will be errors in them. If always of God, they will come out exactly as shared.

I would not claim tho, that this prophecy you were given about "Books" was that you were to write Books. As with me, the vision of Books God gave me, ended up being over 1 1/2 full sized truck loads of a mixture of documentations I'd collected in reasearch over years, as well as writing about all those subjects.

Half of that I had to burn before moving in 2000, the other I stored with Christian friends and some I kept. But, my friends eventually burned those boxes of papers, as needed the room for thier own stuff. So, am down to that which I saved myself.

As for Stephen, I would have to say that, yes, he felt pain since it was to his physical body. But, he endured it without it going beyond his thresh hold of pain with God's help. Look at the torment Jesus suffered at the hands of men just before, then with crucifixtin. Jesus felt that but did not cry out in pain either.

Eagle4him-

Early Church Leaders had not developed any "dispensational stages" like the later Church did. But, if were to study "dispensational" teachings, they are little different from Early Church Teachings. Its just we divide the same events, into sections, or "ages", "time lines" etc.

But, the Early church Leaders do speak of an event which they refered to as- a "catching up", "calling up", "catching away", "snatching up or away", etc, which is seperate from Christ's bodily return.

Just as they used Scriptures from Job to teach who the "Sons of God" were in Noah's Day Gen. 6, they also used Scriptures such as in John 14, Rom. 8, I Cor. 1, 15 and 16, Philip. 3 & 4, Colo 3, I Thess. 1,2,4,5, II Thess. 2, plus a host more, to claim proof of this other event, which they also used Scriptures that spoke of the "Church" not being appointed unto wrath, etc.

God Bless!!


Posted by: kaleidescope-eyes

I certainly credit the Holy Spirit revealing to me the true and deeper meaning of the Parable of the Ten Virgins. I will share some of this today.


FIRST OF ALL: Before we go anywhere towards better understanding this Parable, we need to understand what a Wise Virgin is, and what a Foolish Virgin is.

Then, ON ANOTHER OCCASION, I will share with you the meaning of the ENTIRE Parable.


...........................

Jesus commanded us, “Watch and pray.”


And we have tended to think of this as guard duty, like a soldier keeping watch, knowing that if he falls asleep, that he might miss detecting the enemy and warning others of its approach.

But now, remember that Jesus spoke in Parables, some familiar to common human experience, but others more rooted in the Jewish and neighboring cultures of the time. Some of these require research or revelation for us in the present day to understand – but for those 2000 years ago whose hearts were open, they know exactly what Jesus was talking about. For example:

A Woman looking for a Lost Coin
(10 coins were a sign of marriage covenant – this was like loosing the diamond out of her wedding ring!)

A “Good” Samaritan
(Samaritans were the scum of the earth to the Jews, as they were Jews who had intermarried with one of the neighboring pagans peoples)

A Wise Virgin vs. a Foolish Virgin… WHAT was it in their CULTURE that any Jew would identify with this analogy?? Going, “Uh-huh! Oh yeah, I totally KNOW what He’s talking about! That’s SO true!!”

Meanwhile, in 2008, in Western Cultures, we’re scratching our heads, wondering what the heck is a wise virgin or a foolish virgin?!

Remember, Jesus was not saying a wise man, a wise and dutiful soldier, a wise old woman…rather, a young, single, sexually inexperienced woman.

And, so, wise about what? Hmm…

Obviously, it’s a little puzzling for most of us. But you will laugh when you get it!

Now, a parable, as we know, is a short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or religious principle.

So, for those of us who live in the year 2008,
In the spirit of speaking in symbolic stories and parables,
let’s look at The Highwayman (Part 1) by Alfred Noyes:


IThe wind was a torrent of darkness among the gusty trees,
The moon was a ghostly galleon tossed upon cloudy seas,
The road was a ribbon of moonlight, over the purple moor,
And the highwayman came riding-
Riding-riding-
The highwayman came riding, up to the old inn-door.

He'd a French cocked-hat on his forehead, a bunch of lace at his chin,
A coat of the claret velvet, and breeches of brown doe-skin;
They fitted with never a wrinkle: his boots were up to the thigh!
And he rode with a jewelled twinkle,
His pistol butts a-twinkle,
His rapier hilt a-twinkle, under the jewelled sky.

Over the cobbles he clattered and clashed in the dark inn-yard,
And he tapped with his whip on the shutters, but all was locked and barred;
He whistled a tune to the window, and who should be waiting there
But the landlord's black-eyed daughter,
Bess, the landlord's daughter,
Plaiting a dark red love-knot into her long black hair.

And dark in the old inn-yard a stable-wicket creaked
Where Tim the ostler listened; his face was white and peaked;
His eyes were hollows of madness, his hair like mouldy hay,
But he loved the landlord's daughter,
The landlord's red-lipped daughter,
Dumb as a dog he listened, and he heard the robber say-

"One kiss, my bonny sweetheart, I'm after a prize to-night,
But I shall be back with the yellow gold before the morning light;
Yet, if they press me sharply, and harry me through the day,
Then look for me by moonlight,
Watch for me by moonlight,
I'll come to thee by moonlight, though hell should bar the way."

He rose upright in the stirrups; he scarce could reach her hand,
But she loosened her hair i' the casement! His face burnt like a brand
As the black cascade of perfume came tumbling over his breast;
And he kissed its waves in the moonlight,
(Oh, sweet black waves in the moonlight!)T
hen he tugged at his rein in the moonlight, and galloped away to the West.

Selah!

Now, Bess is a fictitious character, but let’s assume for our purposes that she is a virgin. Oh, but what a wise virgin is she! She’ll be waiting for the man with the sword and the pistols and the wrinkle-free thigh-high boots for the next 24, 48, or 72 hours… And when she sees him approach (because she is waaaatching!), he won’t have to tap on the window with his whip because she will be diving out of it!!!

We get the sense that Bess the bonny sweetheart could wait up for 7 days and 7 nights if she had to, for this irresistible thief to steal HER away…And she probably won’t be crabby and mad because she had to wait so long. And she probably won’t be opening her mouth in gaping yawns, while he waits outside for a half-an-hour for her to gather her things!

Okay, so let’s compare what a WISE Virgin and a FOOLISH Virgin would be like: Imagine that you live in Ancient Palestine. Your cousin Maryam has been betrothed to Benjamin for the last two years. As the time of the wedding feast approaches, Maryam is often seen glassy-eyed, blushing… a lot of giggling is going on among her and her sisters…And you feel happiness for your friend Benjamin (as do all the relatives, smiling and winking at him, and nudging him with their elbows)…BECAUSE Benjamin (PRAISE GOD!) is marrying a WISE virgin!

Now, your other female cousin Michal has also been betrothed for quite some time to Oman. As the time of the wedding feast approaches, Michal is quite her usual self. In fact, too much so… doesn’t she understand that she is getting married?? You know she loves Oman… but Oh Man! You can’t help but wonder if you shouldn’t feel sorry for the guy… the wedding night will probably be at best a non-event, or at worst, a disaster, if the bride takes a knitting needle or frying pan (or other rudimentary form of self-defense) to bed with her. And all the relatives seem to be thinking the same thing, because they are exchanging knowing glances, shaking their heads, and clucking their tongues… BECAUSE Oman, poor guy, is (OY VEY!) marrying a FOOLISH virgin!

Now if Maryam were bonny Bess, and Oman was the dashing Highwayman... And he were to rap on her bedroom window, she would probably... (Just guess):
A) Tell Oman that she loves him but he just woke her up and she would really like to get some shut-eye before her early shift at the inn.
B) Tell Oman, SHHH! You’ll wake up Daddy!
C) Be comatose, and Oman will have to knock on the inn-keeper’s door like some traveling salesman, and ask the old man, Say, uh, is Bess around?
D) Ask Oman, So where is all that yellow gold you keep talking about? How come I’ve never seen any of it?
E) Any of the above on any given day.

Fortunately, BESS, on the other hand, is a very wise virgin. The poem oozes with chemistry. Bess is a passionate, Wise Virgin… And the Highwayman must be awful smart too, because he hasn’t been caught yet (at least not so far) by King George’s Men.

So, one of the ways we need to watch for Jesus is like how Bess watched for her lover… her PASSION kept her AWAKE!

Unfortunately, cousin Michal, affectionate as she may be, lacks the passion to stay awake past 11:00!

"…Look a little deeper beneath the suffering that He [Jesus] experienced, and understand that there was an underlying ecstasy beneath the pain of the cross."
[See Hebrews 12:2] -NAKED AND NOT ASHAMED by T.D. Jakes:The Power of Passion p. 30

I have MUCH MORE to share in regards to The Parable of the Ten Virgins, because the Holy Spirit has been teaching me about it off an on for three years. I will do so on another occasion.

-- kaleidescope-eyes


Posted by: eagle4him

The Secret Rapture

Lorraine Day, M.D.


Many Christians believe that Christ's second coming will be in two stages -- first, a secret rapture of the Church at the beginning of a seven year period of tribulation, followed by a visible, triumphant return of Christ to the earth, accompanied by the Church, at the close of the seven year period.

They believe that during this seven year period there will be a great tribulation during which time, God will select and seal 144,000 literal Jews (who are sexually celibate) who will take the Gospel of the Kingdom to the whole world, converting innumerable souls to Christ.

The war of Armageddon, a literal war of nations against literal Israel, which occurs near the end of the seven year period, is brought to a halt by Christ's return with His Church. Then literal Israel accepts the Lord as the Messiah and enters with Him as His covenant people into the 1,000 year (millennial) reign on earth, known as the Kingdom Age.

Christ will rule directly over the earth from the throne of David in Jerusalem, where the typical temple services function again. Those who ultimately reject Christ's rule are eventually judged and destroyed at the end of the Millennium. The new believers will then receive immortality and eternity will begin.



That is the doctrine of the Secret Rapture.

Is this doctrine Biblical?

Which texts support it?

Are there other texts that deny this doctrine?

How long has this doctrine been prevalent in Christianity?

How did it begin, and who was/is the primary promoter of it?




In early 1830, Margaret McDonald, a 15 year old Scottish Girl had visions that included a Secret Rapture of believers before the appearance of the Antichrist. Edward Irving (1792-1834) her Scottish Presbyterian pastor and forerunner of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, attended prophecy conferences that began in Dublin Ireland in that same year, 1830, at Powerscourt Castle. There he promoted the doctrine of the Secret Rapture.

John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), a minister of the Church of Ireland, later became a member of the Plymouth Brethren and also promoted a Secret Rapture after attending the same Powerscourt Bible Prophecy meeting in 1830 where he learned of Margaret McDonald's vision. He visited Margaret McDonald at her home in Port Glasgow, Scotland, then later visited America several times where his Secret Rapture theology was quite well accepted.

The writings of John Darby greatly influenced Cyrus Scofield (1843-1921) who incorporated this doctrine in the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible, first published by Oxford University Press in 1909. One million copies were printed by 1930, firmly establishing this Futurist interpretation in the Bible schools and denominations of the United States in the 20th Century.


Did this Secret Rapture doctrine really start with Margaret McDonald, John Darby and Cyrus Scofield, or did it originate much earlier?

Historical evidence shows that it originated much earlier.

Before and during the Protestant Reformation, the Reformers embraced the "Historical" interpretation of the Bible, where the antichrist was clearly seen as a SYSTEM of apostasy and persecution rather than a single individual. John spoke of antichrist that "shall come" but he added that "even now are there MANY antichrists." 1 John 2:18

So we know that there are, and/or have been, MANY antichrists, NOT just one, AND that the system of antichrist was operating at the time John was writing, almost 2,000 years ago.

The conclusion of those who studied these prophecies during the Reformation was that there was only one system that fit all the characteristics of the antichrist power: the papacy of the Roman Catholic Church. Its characteristics included the following:

5) It would rule "over many nations, people and tongues." In other words, it would be a universal world governing body (Rev 13:7)

6) It would claim authority over all kings (Rev 17:18)

3) Its leaders would make great and blasphemous claims against God. (Rev 13:1,6)

4) It would claim it had the power to change "times and laws." (Dan 7:25)

5) It would be a "mother" harlot church with apostate daughters coming from her. (Rev 17:5)

6) It would be an apostate church that would make all nations drink of her apostasy. (Rev 14:8)

7) It would persecute the saints of Jesus Christ. (Rev 13:7)

8) It would rule for 1260 years (according to the "day-for-a-year" prophecy concept, adopted by many denominations) following the fall of pagan Rome and then would suffer what would appear to be a "deadly wound." (Rev 11:2,3; Rev 13:3)

9) It would be revived after the deadly wound, and the whole world would wonder at its revival.

It is not surprising that the Catholic Church was so violently opposed to the Bible being available for everyone to read for themselves. To control what they considered a heretical doctrine, the Catholic Church called for a special meeting, known as the Fifth Lateran Council (1512-1517), which FORBADE anyone to publish a book without prior censorship. It also prohibited anyone from preaching on the subject of antichrist! The leaders of the Council and their governing body, the Catholic Church, also attempted to ban or burn all the Bibles, heretical books, and the heretics that owned or preached from them.

One major characteristic identifying the antichrist power was this 1260 days prophecy (interpreted as 1260 prophetic years) of persecution of the "saints", which appeared to be fulfilled in the Catholic Church's persecution of Christians throughout the dark ages, beginning in 538 A.D., after the fall of the pagan Roman empire, and extending to 1798, when the Pope was taken prisoner by Napoleon (considered by some to be the "deadly wound").

In order to divert attention AWAY from the Catholic Church as the antichrist power, a new interpretation would have to be found for this twelve century papal rule of the middle ages.

This was done by rejecting the "Historical" interpretation, and instead accepting the "Futurist" interpretation proposed by a Jesuit doctor of theology, Francisco Ribera (1537-1591). In his book, entitled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, he postulated that the 1260 day prophecy (Rev 12:6) (42 months (Rev 11:2, 13:5), or time, times and half a time (Rev 12:14) - 3 1/2 times) were not 1260 years, but a literal 3 1/2 years, or 1260 actual days, and therefore NONE of the book of Revelation had any application to the middle ages or the papacy. It applied to a future period just prior to the Second Coming of Christ, hence it was called "Futurism" or the "Futurist" interpretation.

Manuel De Lacunza (1731-1801), a Jesuit priest from Chile, also advocated futurism in his manuscript entitled La Venida del Mesias en Gloria y Magestad ("The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty"). Writing under the assumed name of Juan Josafa (Rabbi) Ben-Ezra, Lacunza hoped to obscure the fact that he was a Catholic, in order to give his book better acceptance in Protestantism.

To make the prophecy fit its new interpretation, the 70 Weeks prophecy of Dan 9:24-27, beginning in 457 B.C. with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Ezra 7:1-27) had to develop a "gap." Arbitrarily, the 70th week (7 days = 7 years) of Daniel's prophecy is detached from its context and placed at the end of the age, 2000 years later. This "week" will, according to its proponents, constitute the "seven year tribulation period," prior to which the Secret Rapture will occur.

This "gap" theory states that all fulfillment of this prophecy is suspended until the Christian era is over. Then the last week of the 70 weeks prophecy becomes operative again, constituting the 7 year (a day is a year in prophecy*) period of tribulation. The "Rapturists" teach that the first sixty nine weeks of this seventy-week prophecy (490 years) reached from 457 B.C. to 27 A.D., the year that Christ began His ministry.

The "Historical" view teaches that the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 began in 457 B.C. and ended when Stephen was stoned to death in 34 A.D. It was at that time that the gospel went to the "Gentiles" and the "Jewish" people lost their place as those "Chosen" to spread God's message to the world. They had rejected Christ by calling for His crucifixion in the "middle of the week," in 31 A.D. and then rejected Christ's followers by stoning Stephen 3 1/2 years later, at the end of the 70th week (34 A.D.).

*(1 day in prophecy = 1 year: Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6)




Which Bible texts are used in support of this Secret Rapture Theory,?
(also known as the Pre-tribulation Rapture)



Even though these texts are used to support the Secret Rapture Theory, if one reads the entire passage, or in some cases just the complete verse, it is clear that they do NOT support this theory.

A) 2 Peter 3:10-12 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. . ."

This may suggest a secret event. However there's MORE. The last part of this verse says ". . . in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Clearly this is NOT a secret event.

"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

The point of the example of Jesus coming as a "thief in the night" is NOT that it will be a secret event, but that He will come at a time when nearly everyone will NOT be expecting Him. The warning to the believers is that we should constantly be holy in our conduct because Jesus could come when we least expect Him.

B) Luke 12: 39-40 "And this know, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have allowed his house to be broken into.

"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

Again, the warning is to be ready at all times, because Jesus will come at a time when we aren't expecting Him. This passage does NOT imply that His coming will be secret.


C) 1 Thess 5:2,4 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the nightŠ

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be self-controlled."

Again, the message here is NOT that Jesus' coming will be secret, but that it will occur at a time when most will not expect it, therefore we must WATCH!

D) Revelation 16:15 "Behold I come as a thief. Blessed is he that WATCHETH, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

Again, the message is NOT that Jesus' coming will be secret, but that most will not be expecting it, therefore we must WATCH! "Garments" refers to our righteousness, (Zechariah 3:4,5) "lest he walk naked" (without righteousness).


E) Matt 24:40-42 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. WATCH ye therefore; for ye know NOT what hour your Lord doth come."

The warning again is that His coming will be unexpected, NOT that His coming will be secret.

F) Luke 21:34 "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be weighed down with carousing and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares."

We are told that if we watch and live righteously, we will NOT be caught unaware. Only the wicked will be caught unaware.

G) Revelation 3:3 ". . . if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you."

H) Revelation 3:10 "Because you have kept my command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

We know that those who REFUSE the Mark of the Beast will NOT be affected by the Seven Last Plagues. (Rev 16:2) So the righteous WILL be kept from that hour of trial, the plagues, which shall come upon the whole world. But this does not mean that we will not have go through the time of trouble, nor that we will not be persecuted.

John 17:15 Jesus promised to be with us through our trials, not to remove us from them. Jesus prayed, "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

Jesus NEVER promised us that we would escape persecution, in fact, He promised us that we WOULD be persecuted.

John 15:20 "A servant is not greater than his Master. They persecuted Me, they will persecute you."




Texts that DISPROVE the Secret Rapture Theory



1) *** Do God's people live THROUGH the coming tribulation (including the seven last plagues) or are they raptured before the tribulation?"

Revelation 16:12,15: And the sixth angel poured out his vial (the sixth plague) upon the seat of the beast; and they gnawed their tongues for pain. . . Behold I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

Why would Jesus be coming "as a thief" AFTER six plagues are already poured out, if He had already come "as a thief" BEFORE they were poured out?

2) *** No one can enter the (heavenly - see Rev 15:1) temple UNTIL the seven last plagues are completed!

Rev 15:8 ". . . and no man was able to enter into the temple (in heaven - see vs. 1) till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."

3) *** They persecuted Jesus! They will persecute His followers!

John 15:20 Jesus said "Remember the word that I said unto you. The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they persecuted Me, they WILL also persecute you."

Dan 3:16-28 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego had to ENTER the flames (be persecuted) but God was with them THROUGH the persecution.

Ps 96: Ancient Israelites, as a symbol of Christians in the time of the end, were delivered from Egyptian bondage AFTER the plagues, NOT BEFORE, so God's people will be protected THROUGH the plagues and delivered from the hand of the oppressor.

4) *** In this parable that Jesus told, the sheep and the goats are together UNTIL JESUS COMES.

Matt 13:24-30 "When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of glory. . . and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats."

5) *** The Wheat and the Tares grow together until the END - THE HARVEST.

Matt 13:24-30 In the parable of the wheat and tares, Jesus said "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

7) God PROMISES us tribulation in this world.

John 16:33 "In this world you WILL have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

Luke 21:10-12 "Then said He unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and great earthquakes shall be in various places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

"But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My Name's sake."

Mark 13:9 "But take heed to yourselves; for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them."

8) Question: Doesn't 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 say that some will go first and others follow?

Answer: No, it teaches that they will all go together.

1 Thess. 4:15-17 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall NOT precede (prevent) them which are asleep (in death).

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (from the graves - the first resurrection).

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we always be with the Lord."




"Parousia" vs "Apokalupsis"



There are two Greek words that are translated "coming" in the Bible: parousia and apokalupsis. The Greek word "parousia" is translated "coming" 22 times, and translated "presence" only 2 times.

Those who believe in a "secret rapture" say that "parousia" refers to the secret "coming" of Jesus in His "presence and that "apokalupsis" refers to the visible, glorious "coming" of Jesus in power, seven years later. In the mid-point of that time, at 3 1/2 years, the antichrist will take charge.

Yet both "parousia" and "apokalupsis" are used to describe the second coming, illustrated by its parallel in the "days of Noah."

Matt 24:37 "As in the days of Noah, so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man be."

Luke 17:26,30 "As it was in the days of Noah. . . Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed (apokalupsis).

These two texts describe the same event, Noah's flood, but one uses "parousia" and the other uses "apokalupsis" so any distinction as some suggest, is unwarranted.

In 2 Peter 3:12, we read "looking for and hastening the coming (parousia) of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat."

This "coming" (the word - parousia) is used in 2 Thess 2:1-4,8 and says it will NOT happen until AFTER the AntiChrist has set himself up in the temple of God.

Those who believe in the secret rapture teach that it will occur BEFORE the seven year tribulation and BEFORE the Anti-Christ comes to power, which they believe will happen DURING the seven year tribulation. But the following passage says the Antichrist will come BEFORE the "parousia" occurs.

In other words, there is NO pre-tribulation Secret Rapture!

2 Thess 2:1-4, 8 "Now we beseech you, brethren, concerning the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, "that you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ had come. Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY (the parousia) SHALL NOT COME except there come a falling away FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

Question: Those who teach the "Secret Rapture" believe in a "seven year tribulation period." Where did they get this doctrine?

Their Answer: Daniel 9:24-27 speaks of a seventy-week prophecy (490 years). "Secret Rapture" believers teach that 69 weeks of this seventy-week prophecy (490 years) reached from 457 BC to 27AD, the year that Christ began His ministry.

They then teach that the last week - the 70th week, doesn't take place for another 2000 years. They place the last week, the 70th week, way down at the end of time, the last 7 years of earth's history - and define it as the tribulation.

NOTHING in the Bible suggests that this prophecy should be broken up in this way. NO OTHER Bible prophecy is broken up like this, with a 2000 year gap!

Our Answer: The 70 weeks (490 years) is a CONTINUOUS prophecy which began in 457 BC and ended in 34 AD, the year Stephen was stoned and the gospel was then taken to the "Gentiles."

Here's how the text reads:

Daniel; 9:24-27 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon the holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins (Jesus death on the Cross), and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem (457 BC) unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks and theescore and two weeks ( 7 + 62 = 69 weeks - until the beginning of Jesus' Ministry, His baptism, in 27 AD), the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

"And after threescore and two weeks (the 62 weeks that followed the first 7 weeks) shall Messiah be cut off (literal translation: "suffer the death penalty"), but not for Himself;. . .

"And He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the middle of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation (offering) to cease. . ." (Jesus' death on the Cross occurred in 31 AD, in the "middle of the 70th week," which eliminated the need for the animal sacrifices in the temple). The 70th week ended in 34 AD when Stephen was stoned. The gospel then was taken to the "Gentiles", more properly translated "nations" which is the term the Bible uses for "unbelievers."

Summary: The Bible consistently teaches only ONE return of Christ and it will be a visible, world-wide, noisy event. "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. . . and the dead in Christ shall rise first." Christ's coming will be both seen and heard.

An additional part of the Secret Rapture doctrine is that there will be a millennial kingdom set up on the earth when Jesus comes with His church and halts Armageddon. They believe that after the antichrist and his army are destroyed that Israel will accept the Lord as the Messiah and become His covenant people during this one thousand year "kingdom age."

The third temple will have been built and Jesus will personally reign over the nations in their mortal state from the throne of David in Jerusalem. They believe that animal sacrifices will begin again, even though Jesus' death on Calvary did away with them. At the end of the millennium, those who do not accept Christ will be destroyed and eternity will begin.

In our opinion, this interpretation of Scripture is incorrect for the following reasons:

1) The destruction that has occurred on the earth from the seven last plagues (Rev. 16) will make the earth uninhabitable.

2) Because humanity has long ignored God's directive to rest the earth every 7 years, the earth must lay dormant for 1000 years. This millennial period will allow the earth to make up for all the rest it did not receive during the 6000 years since creation.

3) There is an excellent reason why God did not destroy Satan when he first sinned. God is allowing Satan to continue his evil work until he completely destroys the earth. God will not stop Satan even one day short, otherwise Satan would cry "Foul!"

Satan, if he were stopped before completely destroying the earth, would claim that he could have turned things around if he had only been given more time. God will allow all the time necessary for Satan to prove that Satan's way does not work. Only then will Satan, the inhabitants of the world, and the inhabitants of the universe, be totally convinced that God's way is the only way.

This utter destruction of the earth will make it uninhabitable.

4) Satan and his evil angels will be bound to the earth by a "chain" of circumstances. They will be confined to the earth and its atmosphere for the millennium as part of reaping what they have sown, so they will get a full sense of the catastrophic results of their actions. They will have no one to tempt because the righteous will be in heaven, having ascended to meet Jesus in the air, and the wicked will all be dead, awaiting the second resurrection and the judgment (Rev 20:5) after the millennium.

There is not a different plan for the "Jew" and the "Gentile" during the millennium, as many Christians believe. In fact, there is no difference at all between the "Jew " and the "Greek" according to the Bible (Gal 3:28). In fact, there is no such thing AS a "Jew" or a "Gentile" (Please see the study at www.goodnewsaboutgod.com entitled "Who is Israel? Who is the Church?").

God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). He loves everyone the same and He has just ONE plan for ALL!

We believe that the Biblical view is as follows:

There is ONE and ONLY ONE return of Christ, the Second Coming. It will NOT be a secret event. When He comes, every eye will see Him. so it will be a world-wide phenomenon, and it will be a loud, cataclysmic event. This will occur AFTER the tribulation. The righteous dead will be resurrected by Christ and they, with the righteous living, will be caught up in the air to meet the Lord to ascend to heaven for the millennium, regardless of nationality.

Jesus will continue to have His group on the earth, small though it may be, exhibiting HIS character, right up until the very end.

The remaining wicked on earth will be destroyed by the final catastrophic events of the end, a culmination of the devastation of the seven last plagues and the result of Christ's return with His hosts of angels breaking through into our atmosphere.

The wicked will remain dead for the 1000 years and Satan and his evil angels will be confined to this earth for that same period of time.

After the thousand year period is over, Christ and the saints return to earth from heaven, Satan is "loosed" for a short time simultaneous with the resurrection of the wicked dead for the judgment.

To find out what happens next, please see the study: "What Happens at the Judgment?"

Conclusion: The teaching of a Secret Rapture and escape from persecution will be a devastating deception for Christians. Persecution and suffering have always been God's means of strengthening His people and producing strong character.

Even Jesus "learned obedience through suffering." (Heb 5:8) Jesus guarantees that, if we speak His truth boldly, we WILL suffer persecution.

Satan wants to impede and restrain strength and character building in Christians by getting us focused on ESCAPING trouble and persecution instead of our preparing to GO THROUGH PERSECUTION, even to the point of death.

When these "soft" Christians are confronted with heavy persecution, they will fall like dominoes and Satan will be ecstatic. His lies will have worked once again!


Posted by: eagle4him

Pre-Trib Rapture Arguments Examined



By Dan Corner

--Evangelical Outreach







The following arguments are some of the chief reasons why millions of Christians believe in a pre-trib rapture. Many of these same people are unaware that there is another way to look at the pre-trib rapture proof-texts. Hopefully, after taking a close look at the following, many pre-trib rapture proponents will see things differently about the timing of the rapture. While there will be a rapture, the pre-trib rapture teaching, in the end, will show itself to be nothing more than a false hope (and perhaps even a snare) for many who were not prepared spiritually for those days because they thought they would escape rather than face the rough days ahead. It is my hope that many will reconsider their position of a pre-trib rapture after they see some of the chief arguments upon which it is based.



PRE-TRIB RAPTURE ARGUMENT NUMBER 1:

God is a loving God and would NEVER allow his children to suffer through the great tribulation. Hence, we will be leaving through the rapture before it occurs.



ANSWER:God has always been and will always be a loving God. In fact, He is love (1 John 4:8; 4:16), but we must NOT misuse this attribute of His or misunderstand that He is also an infinite and eternal God, whose ways and thoughts are not like ours:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa 55:8,9)



Also, remember that God has allowed His most devoted servants to suffer incredibly in this life, even up to the point of martyrdom like John the Baptist, Steven, James and Antipas. Moreover, many prophets of God were killed by Jezebel in her day (1 Kings 18:4, 13). But most noteworthy is how the Father allowed His only begotten son, Jesus of Nazareth, to suffer horribly and then die on the cross for all of mankind. God's love permitted all of that to happen and will also allow for the last generation of saints to face the antichrist.




PRE-TRIB RAPTURE ARGUMENT NUMBER 2:

Jesus promised the church the following:

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. (Rev 3:10)



Jesus said, He'd keep Christians from this hour of trial coming on the whole earth. Hence, Christians will be delivered from the tribulation period.




ANSWER:The Greek word found in Rev.3:10 and translated keep you from is also found at John 17:11 and 17:15 and can mean keep through. This is what will happen, if we are the generation of saints to face the antichrist -- we will be kept through that horrible time, that is, as long as we do our part for God to continue to keep us, as the Scriptures declare. See Rev. 13:10 and 14:12.

Also remember that the prophet Daniel went into the lion's den and the three Hebrew men -- Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego -- went into Nebuchadnezzar's blazing furnace! God did not keep them from such a severe life or death test.





PRE-TRIB RAPTURE ARGUMENT NUMBER 3:

After Rev. 4:1, we read no more of the church. God said to John, come up here, which symbolizes the rapture and the end of the Church age, which means Christians are not going through the tribulation. That verse reads:

After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." (Rev 4:1)




ANSWER: While we might not see the word church after the point of Rev. 4:1 in the book of Revelation, we still read of it with the term saints, which comprise the church. For example, we read:

He [the antichrist] was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. (Rev 13:7)


If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints. (Rev 13:10)

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. (Rev 14:9-12)


So while it is true that the word church is not found after Rev. 4:1, a synonym for it certainly is!


Also, it was to John alone that God spoke the words come up here. To give a symbolic interpretation to any Scripture, which you are doing to say that phrase means the rapture, can lead to many strange, weird and unsound teachings. But those same words come up here are also found in another place in Revelation:

Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. (Rev 11:12)



Those words were spoken to the two witnesses of Rev. 11, who were killed by the antichrist and clearly cannot refer to the rapture, as some try to make it mean in Rev. 4:1.






PRE-TRIB RAPTURE ARGUMENT NUMBER 4:

Lot was taken out of Sodom before it was destroyed and Noah was in the ark before the flood. Scripture says:

Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lotleft Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. (Luke 17:26-30)



Hence, Christians will likewise be delivered, as Noah and Lot were, through the rapture.




ANSWER: While some might look at Lk. 17:26-30 and see the righteous being delivered (and in part it is referring to that), that passage is primarily emphasizing that the wicked will be destroyed by God's judgment. The wicked people living during Noah's day and Lot's day were oblivious to the immediate danger they were in and continued to live an ordinary kind of life, without repentance of their sins and turning to God. Hence, they were all destroyed when God's judgment came. Notice the rest of the context of that passage:

On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. Remember Lot's wife!