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Originally Posted by MamaCat
First of all, I can tell you that Doug Bachelor is a Seventh Day Adventist and they believe in soul sleep, that when we die, we sleep in body, soul and spirit, until we are raised on the Last Day. The Bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD. Soul sleep is a doctrinal error.
I personally believe the SDAs are a cult, although most Christians seem to accept them as true Christians, despite their long list of unBiblical doctrines, not the least of which is that only SDAs are true Christians. I would disguard their booklets and such. They almost got me hooked when I was a new Christian, by having one of their Prophecy Conferences in a church near here and I didn't know any better and went. I even hung out at an SDA internet chat site for about six months before I finally wised up and realized they were a cult. Anyhow, the Bible says the dead cannot talk to the living and the living cannot talk to the dead. Demons, however, do speak through people who open themselves up to that kind of thing, like those who claim to be psychics or people like John Edwards or Sylvia Browne. The demons, who were certainly around when the loved one died, pretend to be that loved one who is trying to contact their family who is still alive. Christians are to only get supernatural revelation from God alone. That's why we have to test the spirits. But first and foremost, we must trust God's Word alone. Catholic doctrines are totally different than others, so there is a lot of error there to deal with. If you reach the point with your friend where she realizes her mother may have died not being born again, you can be assured that only God knows that for sure. Maybe through all this discussion you can help your friend be sure that she is born again. God bless you! |
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Originally Posted by Christian Commando
MamaCat and illuminate- If don't mind, I'll throw in some insight here. Question 1- ressurrection at Christ's return.- God declares about a meeting of Christ with the Church in the clouds first- rapture. (He does not reach the earth yet). The dead in Christ shall rise first- phys. bodies of dead. Then those who are alive shall be caught up with them to meet Him in the clouds.
2- At physical death- A- For Christians- "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". B- unsaved- At the richman's death, he imediately lifted up his eyes to see angels carrying Lazarus into the bosom of Abraham. (Notice the Scriptures tell us the spirit is a body and has sight, intelligence, etc). 3- Christ's bodily return- God declares at the time Christ bodily returns to the earth, He brings 10,000's of His Saints- "Church" raptured previously. He ends life as we know it here on this old earth and sets up His Kingdom for 1,000 years. B- The ressurrection that happens at this point, are the people who got saved and reborn during the Tribulation period but were killed. Thus, the Christians who died during that time, plus those that lived thru it, along with the "Church Body" that returns with Christ, live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years on this old earth. 4- illuminate- I ask you to think about this- becoming saved and reborn thru "imersion of water". Water baptism does not save a spirit. Jesus Declared- "I am the way, the Truth and the Life". In Acts, you'll find Gentiles got saved and reborn before even getting water baptized. (Peter stated- can we refuse water to those who have recieved the Holy Spirit as you and I?) 5- First we must confess- Lk. 18:13 & Rom. 7:18. Ask Christ into our lives and hearts- Rom. 10:18 Gal. 3:1-2. Accept Him as Lord and Savior- Rom. 3:24-25,Ephes. 1:12-13. Gal. 4:4-5. God declares Salvation is by Grace, not by works, lest any man should boast. God Bless!! |
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Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Yes, I use to think that about certain religions years ago MamaCat, until I started researching them and finding they held to the same doctrinal "Creed" that classifies all other Christian religions as Christian.
God helped me change my thinking as such, or we'd have to reject other good Christian religions as well that have different beliefs about some Concepts of God. |
Here is a list of verses which show that "soul sleep" is contrary to what the Bible teaches. Revelation 6:9-10 Luke 16:19-31 1 Peter 3:18-19 Luke 12:4 2 Corinthians 5:6,8-9 Matthew 22:31-32 Luke 24:37-39 Genesis 35:18 John 11:25-26 Revelation 20:4 Jude 1:7 Luke 23:43
When he broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of all the people who had been killed on account of the word of God, for witnessing to it. They shouted aloud, "Holy, faithful Master, how much longer will you wait before you pass sentence and take vengeance for our death on the inhabitants of the earth?"
The Bible is saying that martyrs go to heaven before the Judgment. Note that this takes place before the resurrection, before the end of the world, before the Judgment, while life is going on as usual on the earth. Also, the martyrs, despite being "dead", have their own memories, and remember that they have been martyred. So to say that these martyrs "know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5) in the sense of being unconscious, or something like that, would be incorrect.
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." Then he said, "I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment." Abraham saith unto him, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." And he said, "Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent." And he said unto him, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Lazarus and the rich man have both died, but their souls are still alive, despite the death of their bodies (and the same is true of Abraham). All this takes place before the resurrection of their bodies, while the rich man's brothers are still alive.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
If the spirits in prison are dead and "know nothing", then why is Jesus preaching to them?
And I say unto you my friends, "Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do."
Here we see that Jesus says that murderers kill only the body, and cannot harm the soul at all. In other words, our soul stays alive, despite anything a murderer might try to do.
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord.... We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
If our soul dies when our body dies, then how can we be "absent" from the body? Yet, the Bible says that we can be with the Lord while absent from our body!
...have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, "Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."
If a spirit apart from its body is dead, then surely the Apostles would know this and thus would not have thought that a living Jesus would be a spirit. Also, if the Apostles had been incorrect in believing that a person's soul survives apart from that person's body, then why didn't Jesus correct them instead of encouraging them in this "erroneous" belief they held? In fact, Jesus here says that the spirit exists independently of the body.
And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died)...
Note that, when Rachel died, her soul departed. It didn't "fall asleep".
Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."
I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus... they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Note that John saw only the souls of the martyrs.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Note that they are presently suffering, and thus not unconscious.
And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
That day ("today") was before the resurrection.
"Soul sleep" means that when a person dies, they have no conscious existence from that time on until the day of resurrection. Another definition I have come across is that the "soul sleep" of the deceased is an existence of silence, inactivity and entire unconsciousness.
Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
When God spoke to Moses, Jesus said said to him that He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In other words, when God spoke to Moses at the burning bush, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had already lived and died. Yet Jesus said God was their God even now, the God of the living in the present, meaning, though these three had died physically, their spirits were not dead. Nor did He mention their spirits were asleep. In other words, their spirits were alive, God was their God, even while their bodies laid in the ground.
The bodies of these three were dead and buried at the time Jesus spoke of them. He spoke of them spiritually, though, as being alive. He mentioned God as the God of the living, not the God of those asleep whether in or out of their bodies, as some propose, that after death men's spirits slept in their bodies until the resurrection and were basically unconscious. No, He said that God meant He was "the God of the living" when He spoke to Moses and when Jesus spoke to the men of His time, "living" meaning,
LIVING 2198. zao, dzah'-o; a prim. verb; to live (lit. or fig.):--life (-time), (a-) live (-ly), quick.
James described the dead of a person:
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
In other words, when a person dies, his body dies and the spirit leaves the body:
WITHOUT 5565. choris, kho-rece'; adv. from G5561; at a space, i.e. separately or apart from (often as prep.):--beside, by itself, without.
In Genesis 35, we read this about the soul departing from Rachel when she died, making soul sleep an impossibility:
18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem (parenthesis in the original).
That the spirit goes to be with the Lord is stated by Paul in Philippians 1:
Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
Paul's choices were two in number: either
(1) stay in the flesh and continue to live on this earth serving God's people, or,
(2) depart and be with Christ.
Where is Christ? Is He in the ground in some type of soul sleep? No, He is in heaven until He returns and the believer joins Him there when each departs at death, that is, when their spirit leaves the body at death as James described. Paul again repeated himself in 2 Corinthians:
2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
Simply stated. while he is in his body, he is absent from the Lord's heavenly presence. When he will be absent from the body, he will no longer be 'absent from the Lord." There is no mention of an intermediate state of soul sleep.
One of the most important scriptures refuting soul sleep is found in Ephesians and it concerns Christ and His resurrection:
Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Jesus lead captivity captive when He descended into the lower parts of the earth. In other words, He descended and then ascended out of their taking with Him a host of captives (those who waited for His coming). That they were there waiting to be lead out shows the non-existence of soul sleep:
LED CAPTIVITY 161. aichmalosia, aheekh-mal-o-see'-ah; from G164; captivity:--captivity.
LED CAPTIVITY From 164. aichmalotos, aheekh-mal-o-tos'; from aichme (a spear) and a der. of the same as G259; prop. a prisoner of war, i.e. (gen.) a captive:--captive.
LED CAPTIVITY From 259. halosis, hal'-o-sis; from a collateral form of G138; capture:--be taken.
LED CAPTIVITY From 138. haireomai, hahee-reh'-om-ahee; prob. akin to G142; to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer:--choose.
LED CAPTIVITY From 142. airo, ah'ee-ro; a prim. verb; to lift; by impl. to take up or away; fig. to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); spec. to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Heb. [comp. H5375] to expiate sin:--away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).
At death, the spirits of men of faith were held captive at death in Hades and released from there when Jesus descended there after His death (see 1 Peter 3:19 and 4:6). Jesus preached to spirits held captive, whether they be the spirits of those in Noah's days or not. He didn't preach to a sleeping crowd.
Finally, Revelation clearly indicates that the souls of the martyrs and the saints are in heaven before the resurrection on the last day, again refuting the idea of soul sleep:
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
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Originally Posted by Illuminate
Wow Jerry, thank you very much for your lucid insights in biblical findings.... what can you tell a person that believes she speaks to her mother, and I don't mean as a conversation but just simply talks to her because she believes her mother can listen while being dead?
Does it matter if the lady was of Catholic denomination? Thank you Jerry, Illuminate |
| To all my Catholic Brothers and Sisters on this board. Jan & I want you to know we love you. So please do not be offended by the emotions of so many others. I just wanted to step in here and say we love you guys. Now to my Protestant friends. When thinking on the Body of Christ I like to think the diversity God gave us is wonderful. The way I look at all Catholics is what their stated creed is. I wish all people who say they are Christians believe all of this. I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth. I believe in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. Amen Catholic means (universal or body of Christ) Now as to Mary what does the word say: The annunciation in the Gospel of Luke says all generations are to call her blessed. LUK 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, LUK 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. LUK 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. LUK 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy [is]his name. LUK 1:50 And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation. 1:51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. 1:52 He hath put down the mighty from [their] seats, and exalted them of low degree. 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. 1:54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of [his] mercy; 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever. 1:56 And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house. Remember even the Angel of the Lord came for God and said: LUK 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women. Remember the greeting of her aunt Elisabeth LUK 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb. I personally do not pray to Mary because Jesus is my Advocate but I do Bless and Honor her because she is the mother of Jesus and because the Word says to. Now as to the rest: It is ok to place information here but please remember not to try and take up a cause There are Catholics who are saved just like there are Baptist and Assembly of God people saved. You are not saved by denomination you are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ through faith. Each denomination has something different about it. Their history is they formed because they believe in something different than what they came out of and they wanted the communion of like minded saints or believers to fellowship with. That does not make them better. Now please do not bring us the persecution of one group of people to others That had nothing to do with Christ. There are many men in the Protestant denominations who tortured people including John Calvin as well as the Catholics. Many people have made many mistakes but God had nothing to do with it. So My Dear Friends please be patient with me. I am not pointing anything at anyone. As some of you have expressed your personal feelings as the leader of the board I must do the same so people will understand where the leadership of this board stands. We can point out error in any denomination. Baptist do not believe miracles are for today Pentecostals do. Baptist believe once you are saved you are always saved Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists do not. But thousands get saved every year in Baptist churches and in Methodist churches etc. I do not think Our Precious Lord is upset with any of them. Almost all denominations have the infallibility clause in their statement of faith. They call it unity and submission. When any denomination issues a statement of faith and says to be a minister or member you must believe these things. They are saying they have heard from God and it is infallible. What I love about this site is the diversity and the love and unity we can have for one another. We honor our pastors and leaders of demoninations just as Catholics honor the priest and Pope. It is our diversity that makes us strong. So to my Catholic friends, thank you for being part of our family and we Love and respect you very much. Pastor Jerry & Jan |
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Originally Posted by MamaCat
Wow, Jerry, thanks so much! That info is a KEEPER!!!
I agree with JG and CC!! We are NOT to speak to the dead and the dead do NOT appear to us in any way shape or form. Those are demonic spirits. Christians should not leave themselves open to these kinds of apparations, and, unfortunatly, many do, especially Catholics. [I am not making judgements here on the people, just speaking about what I've seen them do and say, ok?] Look at what happens every time they 'see' the Virgin Mary somewhere! In the sky, on a wall, under a bridge .... suddenly everyone's trying to see it, they leave candles, rosaries, etc., bow and worship it. That is SO unBiblical and it puts them under satan's curse for bowing down to these idols and apparations. It breaks my heart. These "bleeding statues" and rosaries "turning to gold or silver" and "messages from Mary" are all demonic!!! Mary doesn't speak from heaven and neither do any dead people! I don't mean to be offensive, but I must speak the truth and I pray it will be received in the love I am trying to give it. God bless you !! |
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Originally Posted by Christian Commando
illuminate- Let your friend know, she is doing as wirchs, sorcerers, psychics, clairvouyants and others do who have "connections with familiar spirits". Deut. 18:10-12 will show one example. God Bless! (Familiar spirits translated means demons, evil spirits, etc, even tho many think they are speaking to spirits of dead people, it's really satan or his demons.)
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Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Yes, i also agree wholeheartedly with Pastor Jerry also. I was simply speaking from experience with widows or widowers who were claiming to be speaking with thier dead spouse. Forgive me for coming across insensitive, but was alittle worried there is all.
When they actually believe they are and are hereing answers back, then there could be a problem. God Bless!! |
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Originally Posted by son of God
lk 20;37
joh 11;25 rom 6;8,8;10,8;11 rom10;91 1 cor 15;52 1th 4;16 1peter 4;6 |