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I'm amazed at what nonsense some christians teach...

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Posted by: Frederik

I saw a video of a sermon. The pastor taught incredible nonsense! I cannot even believe that nobody said anything against it.
He said that during altar calls where people pray these typical prayers to get saved a huge percentage of the people which pray the prayer fail to receive their salvation. He said they fail to receive their resurrection life.
This is already a huge nonsense in my opinion, if you want to get saved and pray it then you are saved. Imagine you could somehow fail to receive it then no christian could even be sure. He said that once he saw a girl which prayed the prayer but he saw that she did not have it and then he had to pray with her again until she had it.
And here comes the best: He said that once there was an unsaved girl in his church and God spoke to him to simply touch this girl and in this moment the girl got the resurrection life from him and became born again! What a nonsense! Nobody can become born again without making a decision for Jesus. If you could be born again simply by being touched by a born again christian then everybody could be born again and get the new life without even repenting!
This is really shocking, that a pastor who is used by God teaches such things. I really cannot understand it how somebody can be so wrong and not even see it.


Posted by: JC's girl

I hear and see all kinds of things on Christian TV and radio. People don't even know they are being led astray. I am shocked at what some preachers do and say and the false healings I see on TV. Who ever heard of touching your TV screen in order to get a healing! ha! What about the one, who touches someone and they miraculously get up from their wheelchair and walk. huh! I don't believe in any of that stuff. I think these so called faith healers are just trying to glorify themselves. It creaps me out that these "healers" can sit there with their eyes closed and say that there's someone with a pain in their leg and now that pain is being healed. To me, that's playing psychic, and that is of the devil.

I heard a preacher on Christian radio a few weeks back misquote scripture. He said, "Jesus said, Apart from Me, you are nothing." The correct quote is, "Jesus said, Apart from Me, you can do nothing." I wonder if anyone else listening caught that error.

The devil's job description is to kill, steal, and destroy, and he does a good job of it, even in Christian media. God's Word tells us that we must be alert at all times. He gives us discernment.

Thanks for bringing this into the light, Frederik! God bless you!

JC's girl


Posted by: JeriRose12

Frederik, you are right. You can NOT get saved by someone touching you. It IS a decision!

But JC's Girl, people DO get healed touching TV screens. There is documented proof. They go back to their doctors and the X-rays show no cancer or a straightened spine or whaterver. They don't even touch the screen in some instances. The person just calls out, "Someone is being healed of scoliosis," or whatever and the person says, "Lord, I receive it!" and from that time they are healed.

People do get out of wheelchairs and walk! And many times NO-ONE touches them. They are just there in God's Presence and God heals them.

Benny Hinn (very dangerous to touch God's anointed!!!) had people on his show that had been healed and the healings were STILL intact after a number of years.

How about me? My healing was called out for a back spasm. I went up to the alter after church, and I felt the warmth go through my back. From that day the spasm loosened up, and I was able to walk without that stiffness.

I am surprised you would say that on this site. Jerry Gaffney, owner of this site, is in meetings now, and he is praying for people to be healed. And they ARE being healed. Some he touches, some not, some he calls out, some not.... but everything you speak against here, he 100% believes in and does in his services.

Yes, the devil came to kill, steal and destroy! But Jesus came to save, heal and deliver! And that is the VERY work he's in! If it's the devil who kills, steals and destroys, why are you attributing these healings to him? He isn't going to heal anyone!!!

Yes, there ARE fake healings! The psychis's do heal, and it is WRONG! But it will end in tradgedy every time! How can such a healing stay, as it is done by Satan's power? I am talking about people who were HEALED by Jesus and are STILL healed, and they are going on to serve God and complete the purpose He put them on the earth for.

For you to say no healings are real is shocking! I know other stories (than mine) of people healed, some called out, some not, who are STILL healed. There is my Dad (chip in his elbow), Bob Hinton (well, he's in heaven now, but remained healthy and strong to the end after his healing -- I was a kid, then, so can't remember exact details), Don Hammond (colin cancer), my brother, Jeff (scoliosis), various people in the church in Canada (healings were regulary called out there). This stuff is REAL! I can personally attribute to it!

To be honest, I have pain on my body right now, and I don't know WHY God doesn't heal me. But that does not mean He doesn't heal. There are just too many for real cases to say otherwise! I know you probably don't like Jan Crouch, but she has the X-rays and the written report to PROVE she is 100% healed of cancer!

Would you seriously discredit all these people (I have heard many testimonies) who have written PROOF, from their doctors, X-rays showing no cancer, or straightened back or whatever? Some doctors have only had ONE explanation for what has happened: "It's a miracle," and I believe, in one case, that's what they wrote on the report.

Lord, send a miracle JC girl's way, so she knows Your healing power is for real! Show her that this is NOT the devil! That a good and gracious God still heals today, just as He did all through the Bible! Jesus You are the same yesterday, today, and forever! Show JC's girl Your healing power in a mighty way! Remove her doubt and skepticism. I can't believe in all her years she's never met anyone who was healed by You. Lord, this is strange. I know SO MANY who have been healed! This is a prayer site with a whole forum to pray for physical healing. Surely, many on here have been healed. Let them report it in this thread if so. Lord, show Yourself to JC's girl as The Healer. One of Your Names is Jehovah Ropeh, The God Who Heals. It is sad that doctrines are being preached today that say You no longer heal. This is FALSE! If You no longer heal, how come Don Hammond is STILL healed of colin cancer, when he was on his death bed in the hospital before You touched him? There are just TOO MANY miracles, documented miracles -- because the people are told "Go back to your doctor and get proof." Oh, Lord, let Your glory and power be shown in this! No man will ever share Your glory! I am simply praying that YOU get the glory! In Jesus Name, amen.


Check out this thread, JC's girl:

http://www.annointed.net/ForumTopic_38541__15.htm


~JeriRose~
Finding HIM in 2005


Posted by: bill & alexis

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC's girl
I hear and see all kinds of things on Christian TV and radio. People don't even know they are being led astray. I am shocked at what some preachers do and say and the false healings I see on TV. Who ever heard of touching your TV screen in order to get a healing! ha! What about the one, who touches someone and they miraculously get up from their wheelchair and walk. huh! I don't believe in any of that stuff. I think these so called faith healers are just trying to glorify themselves. It creaps me out that these "healers" can sit there with their eyes closed and say that there's someone with a pain in their leg and now that pain is being healed. To me, that's playing psychic, and that is of the devil.

I heard a preacher on Christian radio a few weeks back misquote scripture. He said, "Jesus said, Apart from Me, you are nothing." The correct quote is, "Jesus said, Apart from Me, you can do nothing." I wonder if anyone else listening caught that error.

The devil's job description is to kill, steal, and destroy, and he does a good job of it, even in Christian media. God's Word tells us that we must be alert at all times. He gives us discernment.

Thanks for bringing this into the light, Frederik! God bless you!

JC's girl
Marcee,
Hello there! There are many false doctrines, faith healers, evangelists, politicians, etc. Although, the point you may have missed is there are some REAL ones. Individuals's who fear the Lord, and do not exercise their gift for their own glory, but for HIS!

Quote:
People don't even know they are being led astray.
You are right about that! Since, all of us have areas where the enemy has us deceived with some false paradigms...

Quote:

I am shocked at what some preachers do and say and the false healings I see on TV.
Me too! Yet, I am even more amazed at what God is legitimately doing through HIS true servants!

Quote:

Who ever heard of touching your TV screen in order to get a healing! ha!
What if they were healed? What's that to you, or even me? Or, better yet, what's that to the person who reached out, with a hope and faith that God will do as HIS word says, and because of their faith - and not the power of the T.V. or evangelist on it - were healed by God?!?

Quote:

What about the one, who touches someone and they miraculously get up from their wheelchair and walk. huh! I don't believe in any of that stuff.
You may not believe in this "stuff," but what you and I think we believe has little relevance...I have seen folks be "touched" and get out of wheelchairs, and I have seen people not be touched, and still get out of wheelchairs...

Quote:

It creaps me out that these "healers" can sit there with their eyes closed and say that there's someone with a pain in their leg and now that pain is being healed. To me, that's playing psychic, and that is of the devil.
Marcee, if only you could see this is soooooo real, if only you could have seen the people with one leg shorter than other, and watched the shorter one grow when my friends prayed. (1.5" shorter!)

I have seen that personally five times!

If only you had received a word of prophecy straight from the Father's heart. A word speaking about something no-one could have known about you! A word which does bring healing (physically/emotionally/spiritually), and gives you hope! A word which cuts the bitterness, and disbelief from your heart! Would you believe if you had seen these things???

You mentioned psychics. They are people with a legitimate gift from God, but are not using it for the glory of God. There are also legitimate prophets within the Kingdom, and those who are very, very, very well versed with the gift of prophecy - like Pastor Jerry!

Be careful of casting judgment upon God's anointed. Whenever God moves in power - the skeptics rise to the occasion - even Jesus dealt with this when HE walked the Earth! Do not be like the religious folks who know scripture, but do not know God, or the things which are of HIM!

Mathew 12:22-28 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Quote:

The devil's job description is to kill, steal, and destroy, and he does a good job of it, even in Christian media. God's Word tells us that we must be alert at all times. He gives us discernment.
You are right in this! The enemy uses many tools to accomplish this. he is the father of lies, and the only true power he has is what we give him! What Christian media were you referring too?

God's word does tell us to be alert, and wise to the devices of the enemy, and HE does give us discernment - and that, through the Holy Spirit! So, if the LORD gives us discernment through the Holy Spirit, wouldn't words of prophecy, words of knowledge, and healing also come through the Holy Spirit?!? (You cannot have one without the others - or, even choose, since it is HIS determination...)

I do not mean this post as something correctional! Not at all, my tone may seem betray that, but I truly mean this as encouragement to get another picture of how big, glorious, and AWESOME our GOD really is!!!

We serve a GOD of miracles! HE was, is, and always will be the same!!! (And HE uses common - imperfect - people, to do a perfect work!) PRAISE GOD!

Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Have a very blessed day in the Lord!
Semper Fi!
Bill

BTW Why am I taking so much time to stress this point?

The reason being: If your paradigms are wrong, wouldn't you want to be the first one to know?

We need to be waking up each day of our lives and write in our journals:
"It's official! God is a whole lot bigger than previously thought!!!"

If you are still struggling with the supernatural things that are of God, look at some of Pastor Jerry's posts:

The word of knowledge Pasto Jerry received about the man who killed his father:
http://www.annointed.net/ForumTopic_38722__15.htm

Here is the testimony of a Pastor's wife who was totally healed in one of Pasto Jerry's meetings:
http://www.annointed.net/Article139.html

There are many more testimonies under this link:
http://www.annointed.net/Forum_81.htm

It's 2:22! PRAISE GOD!!!


Posted by: MamaCat

JCGirl, do not sit in the seat of scoffers......it will lead to death.

If you are truly JC's Girl, you'll take your eyes and focus off of what people are doing or not doing and keep your eyes and focus on Jesus and His healing power, His glory, His majesty.

Let us all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

Remember, it was the religious folks who scoffed at Jesus and what He was doing among them!!


Posted by: JeriRose12

There is a beautiful testimony about my grandmother's healing from arthritus. She had gone down to the alter and the Lord told her to kneel. She said, "But, Lord, how will I get up?" He said, "In Jesus Name." And she did, and she was healed until she died at age 92, and she was probably about eighty when that happened.

A man with an expereince is not at the mercy of a man with an arguement!

~JeriRose~
Finding HIM in 2005


Posted by: Frederik

If somebody is prayed for and not healed then whose "fault" is it?
Some say it's the fault of the sick person, others say it's the fault of the one who prayed.
I also had somebody pray for me once at a healing service and I was not healed.Of course I had faith, otherwise I would not even have gone there.
But I did not have this "I know that I'll be healed now" faith cause how am I supposed to know wether it will really work? And in the end it also didn't work. I don't think that God is like a machine and we insert a faith coin and then the healing comes out, it's not that we have to pay for our healing with faith. Healing is a mystery in my eyes. I don't understand how it works.


Posted by: MamaCat

You don't have to understand "how it works". It's not YOUR business it is God's sovereignty! All you and we need to concern ourselves with is doing our part, that is, having believing faith, praying, laying hands on the sick, anointing them with oil, etc.

It's carnal to think that lack of healing is someone's 'fault'.

What have you learned from your Bible today, Fredrick?



Posted by: Frederik

But most christians do this! In the word of faith teaching there is always somebody who is to blame. when you're not healed then it's your fault cause God wants to heal everybody right now....according to what they believe.


Posted by: MamaCat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederik
But most christians do this! In the word of faith teaching there is always somebody who is to blame. when you're not healed then it's your fault cause God wants to heal everybody right now....according to what they believe.

I do not believe 'most' Christians do this!

Stick with what the Bible says. Every human being has the capacity to be wrong and in error, no matter what their title or position or prominance or role in life. That's why we need to know the WORD and listen to the voice of the LORD for ourselves.


Posted by: pickone

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Matthew 14:36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

Matthew 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

Mark 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

Luke 5:23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?

James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

All of these scriptures were brought to my mind, so I thought I'd write them down here for you.

Hugs!
Carol


Posted by: Christian Commando

Frederik- Did we not speak of this before? You already know the answers to this. If asked in accordance with god, a prayer for healing etc will be answered and they will be. But, it will always, as MamaCat pointed out once again, be according to God's Timing.

When "faith healers" get too strict about this belief, they always claim it's something people are doing to hold it back. Thats not always true. God knows better how to heal or answer other prayers and commands we can expect, when it is best for each of us.

God Bless Brother!!


Posted by: whome?

i am just praying you recive that experiance with the lord that you have been looking for.be patient and seek his face no matter what,draw near to him with all of your soul.


Posted by: Frederik

Thanks,whome.

You're right CC. Blaming others for not being healed is not okay, even if they really didn't have faith. Blaming them won't help them.

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Mixed with faith?
Can an unbeliever even have faith on his own without God doing anything?
Isn't faith a gift from God? This would mean that those which did not get faith from God also had no chance to believe.


Posted by: Christian Commando

Two points frederik- 1- Remember the story of Christ and Disciples heading for that town, where they met a group of people doing many miracles in Christ's Name? The Disciples wanted to stop them. Why? Jesus stopped the Disciples from that.

On thier return trip back, that group met Christ and expected to be accepted. Yet Christ told them to leave, for He didn't know them. (They were unsaved, but believed in Christ for His Miracle working Power).

2- The Roman Centurian- (unsaved), asked Christ if He would heal his servant who'd been like family to his family. Christ did.

several times Christ proclaimed that seldom had He seen the high level of faith in His chosen people, as He'd seen in some unsaved ones that sought Him for help.

Remember- there are two types of faith- man concieved and Godly. You can have enough faith in God alone, to believe His Word true and try to live by it. But, it takes Holy Spirit inspired faith to take it further.

"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God". If read It and believe what It says to be true, God can still do many things for you. But, without Salvation, you are still lost to God.

Look up the word faith in your Bible's concordance and read about it. You'll get much better understanding strait from the Scriptures. God Bless Brother!!


Posted by: MamaCat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Remember the story of Christ and Disciples heading for that town, where they met a group of people doing many miracles in Christ's Name? The Disciples wanted to stop them. Why? Jesus stopped the Disciples from that.

On thier return trip back, that group met Christ and expected to be accepted. Yet Christ told them to leave, for He didn't know them. (They were unsaved, but believed in Christ for His Miracle working Power).

CC this is very interesting stuff! I'm not sure what you mean though. I know what you're referencing, but I guess the way you worded the last part confused me.

This portion of the scripture has always puzzled me, and I've heard lots of explanations on what it means, but none of these explanations have "set right" [jelled?] within in, if you know what I mean.

How can it be possible for people to do mighty works of Jesus WITHOUT having his power but only using his name? If that were true, wouldn't anyone be able to run around using the name of Jesus to miracles? Lots of cults use His name. Do they have his power too? No power = no miracles.

These people in the Bible were unsaved, yet Jesus didn't stop them from using his name to do mighty works!! Man, this is a tough bunch of verses to understand. I mean the LAST thing a Christian wants to hear from Jesus is "depart from me, I never knew you!" Makes me shutter just thinking of it!

I see another Bible study in my future!! YEAH!!!!




Posted by: Christian Commando

MamaCat- Frederik asked if an unbeliever could have faith on thier own. This is why I gave those examples. This does not mean God is working thru them without the Holy Spirit, but "for" them because of thier belief and faith.

but, that in no way gives them enterance into Heaven and recognized by Christ or God as I'd demonstrated in Scripture.

Heh Heh MamaCat- fear not, for those Christ told to "depart from Me" were not True Children of God but unsaved who had even more faith and belief in God's Word than the Centurian did.

The Centurian saught Christ to do it, as he'd heard Him preaching and Teaching. But, the others unsaved while hearing It, believed so much, God was doing such things for them because of thier belief and faith. Jesus declared to the Disciples- no, let them go, as they do it in My Name's sake.

But, Christ's main point was the above- to show "works", tho good, will not get anyone into Heaven. If not Christ's point, why then stop the Disciples from stopping the group the first time around? See what I mean?

Thus, even an unsaved can have some faith and Christ even states to have faith in God, to say unto this mountain, be thou removed. As true Children of God, we are not expected to be given all faith from the Holy Spirit.

This can also be seen with "Doubting Thomas". Even tho a Disciple and True Child of God, he still wouldn't believe Christ had risen 'till he seen Him again. Thus Christ walked up to him and stated- see the wounds, touch them and believe.

Once again, we see where God shows we must do our part, in order for Him to fulfill His part for us.

God Bless!!


Posted by: Christian Commando

Sorry, missed one part. You asked about Cults and thier belief and power of God. Theres a problem with that- 1- Cults do not believe in the same God you and I do. Thus- 2- Cult Leaders and or followers demonstrating any miraculous power is being done by satan or his demons, just like with witchs, etc.


Posted by: MamaCat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
MamaCat- Frederik asked if an unbeliever could have faith on thier own. This is why I gave those examples. This does not mean God is working thru them without the Holy Spirit, but "for" them because of thier belief and faith.


Sorry, I don't get what you're saying here, CC. God is working FOR them because of their belief and faith, even though they aren't saved???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
but, that in no way gives them enterance into Heaven and recognized by Christ or God as I'd demonstrated in Scripture.

Heh Heh MamaCat- fear not, for those Christ told to "depart from Me" were not True Children of God but unsaved who had even more faith and belief in God's Word than the Centurian did.


I think we're mixing stories here. Are you saying that those who Jesus will say DEPART FROM ME are not really Christians at all, but only pretending to be? Or were they just flat out heathens testing the words of Jesus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
The Centurian sought Christ to do it, as he'd heard Him preaching and Teaching. But, the others unsaved while hearing It, believed so much, God was doing such things for them because of thier belief and faith. Jesus declared to the Disciples- no, let them go, as they do it in My Name's sake.


So even though they weren't born again, they were able to do mighty miracles solely because they had belief and faith??? Wouldn't that make it possible for anyone to do the same things? Don't cultists have belief and faith? We know they're not serving the true God, but THEY don't believe that, they believe they're serving the true God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
But, Christ's main point was the above- to show "works", tho good, will not get anyone into Heaven. If not Christ's point, why then stop the Disciples from stopping the group the first time around? See what I mean?

Not sure I do. What exactly IS Christ's point??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Thus, even an unsaved can have some faith and Christ even states to have faith in God, to say unto this mountain, be thou removed. As true Children of God, we are not expected to be given all faith from the Holy Spirit.


But it seems what you are saying is that heathens can do mighty miracles based soley on their belief and faith in God, even without being born again!!

This is SO messing with my head. I can see I'm going to be doing a lot of Bible reading and studying about this. Care you join me for a feast? You're not already FULL are you???


Posted by: Christian Commando

Dear Sis- No. You keep saying they are doing mighty miracles. They are not. Another example-

When God first changed my heart by 20 years old after 4 years of seeking if He was real and Word true, I started sharing His Word with others to help them in thier daily trials and such.

I'd seen God bring many miracles. But, it was Him alone, not "thru" me, as I was unsaved as yet. But, it was my belief in His Word and that He could do all things that convinced me so sincerely such things could happen. Thus, as an unbeliever, my faith was as the Centurian or those others who were seeing, miracles done in Christ's Name, because they had so much belief, thier faith was higher than many a True Believer. (As with that one person Jesus declared He seldom saw others having greater faith than that person, in all Judea). And they were unsaved.

The point? You can't get saved and reborn even, without enough faith of your own, to believe what you've heard of God's Word for Salvation.

You asked the question- how could a saved and reborn Christian be rejected by Christ? (From the example I gave.) Christ would not. Jesus declared- "MY sheep know My voice and I know them and they follow It.

Thus, for two reasons, that group I spoke of, could never have been God's True Children, but unbelievers with tremendous faith in God's Word they'd heard preached.

1- The Disciples wanted to stop them first. but Christ stopped the Disciples. 2- Christ then rejected them later on.

Why? They had to have been unsaved people. Thats the only conclusion we can reach. Jesu also declared of saved and reborn people- If they profess Me before men, I will profess them before My Father. (Yet Christ rejected that group).



Christ declared before He left, only God's True Children would recieve the Gift of the Holy Spirit and Power to do such things. (Holy Spirit does it "thru" them).

But, if unbelievers could not have faith to believe God's Word enough for God to answer thier commands of or prayers of God's Truth, how could anyone recieve Salvation without original faith to believe after hearing or reading God's Word?

If out amongest alot of people most every day, you'll see alot of unsaved people having tremendous faith in certain things. If they can have that in worldly things, why not God as well, to see results from that?

As I told Frederik, read the Scriptures about faith and pay close attention to those dealing with unsaved people and you'll understand.

God Bless!!


Posted by: footprint9

Hey,
Sorry but I'm still unclear on what you mean by this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando


Remember- there are two types of faith- man concieved and Godly. You can have enough faith in God alone, to believe His Word true and try to live by it. But, it takes Holy Spirit inspired faith to take it further.
I don't have a bible concordance or I would take your advice and look it up.

Are you saying people have to have faith in what they hear others teach about God, and in what they see done in his name before they can have faith IN God?

J


Posted by: MamaCat

Looking at the "DEPART FROM ME I NEVER KNEW YOU" scripture it seems Jesus is discussing False Prophets when you read the verses in context:

Matthew 7:
15Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they [the false prophets] are devouring wolves.16You will fully recognize them [false prophets] by their fruits. Do [these] people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit, but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit. 18A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration]. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. [Ref: Matthew 3:10] 20Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.

21Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. [Isn't casting out demons and doing mighty works in His name God's will?]

22Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name? [How can they, if they are false prophets, drive out demons and do many mighty works????]


23And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].


Posted by: Christian Commando

Footprint9- In some cases, Christ did miracles before unbelievers who then believed by faith after they'd seen it while others recieved miracles and gained faith. In others, they believed what He said and gained faith to accept it. Others who read it, believed what they read and gained faith.

Gaining faith in God to start with has to come from a beginning somewhere, be it witnessing a miracle, believing what you've heard spoken or reading a Bible and gaining faith from believing what is read.

God has always proven thru out His Word, man has to do his part as well as God doing His, in order for things to work. Thats why Christ states it would be better for Sodom in Hell than for Capernaum , as Sodom hadn't heard the Word preached, yet Capernaum had, yet rejected it.

Each person can decide wether to believe in God and His Word but also how much. Until you get the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit from dwelling within you, can God take this further. For God declares an unsaved can only understand the literal understanding, but not the spiritual.

Yet, I've known unsaved who knew the Word of God better than I years ago and had even more faith in what It said, to see more miracles done in lives they prayed for.

In the example of the group MamaCat questioned as being saved and reborn, if True Christians, why would the Disciples want to try and stop them when first came across them? They wouldn't.

Are we to limit God to doing miracles for His Children only? Have you not read in the Old Test. how God worked in unsaved lives to bring them to Him eventually and to live for Him?

What about Saul of Tarsus, greatest persecutor of God's Children. Yes, Christ may have appeared to him first, but afterwards blind, Saul had to have his people lead him to a particular place where he met with others and recieved a miracle, still unsaved.

These people didn't have the Holy Spirit guiding them. They went by faith in belief of what they experienced either by seeing, hearing or reading.

What about Moses, who took council from I believe it was his father-law who did not believe in our God, but who told Moses he should not try to take care of all Isreal's problems on his own, but choose leaders within the tribes to take care of the lesser problems.

God even at one point spoke thru a donkey. Was he saved and reborn? It is man who limits God to what He can do, not God limiting Himself.

Answer this if still question the above- If God won't answer prayer requests or Godly commands directly from His Word for unsaved people with the faith to believe, how can God then give a Gentile Salvation, when they cry out to God to save them and help them earnestly?

If think only by confessing before others and recieving water baprism, then you have limited God thru which all things are possible.

Tell me this as well- If unsaved people heard the Gospel preached but didn't have faith that God would save them thru Christ, would they come to seek Salvation? they have to make the choice to believe to have the faith to want it.

God Bless!!


Posted by: MamaCat

Is this the other portion of scripture you were referring to?

 Mark 9 [NIV]


38"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." [One of us? One of the 12? One of the group? How could a man drive out demons if he wasn't a believer? The sons of Sceva learned the hard way that they couldn't! This 'man' had to be a believer, right?]
 39"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name [the man actually DID MIRACLES!] can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us.


I like how the Amplied puts Mark 9:38:


John said to Him, Teacher, we saw a man who does not follow along with us driving out demons in Your name, and we forbade him to do it, because he is not one of our band [of Your disciples].

So Jesus must have had many followers who did not hang with the main group, eh?


Posted by: MamaCat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Footprint9- In some cases, Christ did miracles before unbelievers who then believed by faith after they'd seen it while others recieved miracles and gained faith. In others, they believed what He said and gained faith to accept it. Others who read it, believed what they read and gained faith.

Gaining faith in God to start with has to come from a beginning somewhere, be it witnessing a miracle, believing what you've heard spoken or reading a Bible and gaining faith from believing what is read.

God has always proven thru out His Word, man has to do his part as well as God doing His, in order for things to work. Thats why Christ states it would be better for Sodom in Hell than for Capernaum , as Sodom hadn't heard the Word preached, yet Capernaum had, yet rejected it.

Each person can decide wether to believe in God and His Word but also how much. Until you get the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit from dwelling within you, can God take this further. For God declares an unsaved can only understand the literal understanding, but not the spiritual.

Yet, I've known unsaved who knew the Word of God better than I years ago and had even more faith in what It said, to see more miracles done in lives they prayed for.

In the example of the group MamaCat questioned as being saved and reborn, if True Christians, why would the Disciples want to try and stop them when first came across them? They wouldn't.

Are we to limit God to doing miracles for His Children only? Have you not read in the Old Test. how God worked in unsaved lives to bring them to Him eventually and to live for Him?

What about Saul of Tarsus, greatest persecutor of God's Children. Yes, Christ may have appeared to him first, but afterwards blind, Saul had to have his people lead him to a particular place where he met with others and recieved a miracle, still unsaved.

These people didn't have the Holy Spirit guiding them. They went by faith in belief of what they experienced either by seeing, hearing or reading.

What about Moses, who took council from I believe it was his father-law who did not believe in our God, but who told Moses he should not try to take care of all Isreal's problems on his own, but choose leaders within the tribes to take care of the lesser problems.

God even at one point spoke thru a donkey. Was he saved and reborn? It is man who limits God to what He can do, not God limiting Himself.

Answer this if still question the above- If God won't answer prayer requests or Godly commands directly from His Word for unsaved people with the faith to believe, how can God then give a Gentile Salvation, when they cry out to God to save them and help them earnestly?

If think only by confessing before others and recieving water baprism, then you have limited God thru which all things are possible.

Tell me this as well- If unsaved people heard the Gospel preached but didn't have faith that God would save them thru Christ, would they come to seek Salvation? they have to make the choice to believe to have the faith to want it.

God Bless!!

Ok, let me see if I'm getting this.

God can and does work miracles FOR unsaved people or ON usaved people, but He only works miracles THROUGH believers? I believe that is true. God did lots of miracles for or around or with people in the OT who were not saved. The Holy Spirt could only come ON people, or AROUND people, but not IN people, even people of faith in the promise to come, since it was before Christ. Correct?
Every person has been given "a measure of faith" by God so that they can have the capacity to believe on Him. That seed of faith has the promise of salvation, blessings and such if the person acts on that faith and allows it to grow and blossom. Faith grows by hearing the Word. I believe that is true.

Does God hear the prayers of heathens? I've seen verses to support YES and NO.

Does God ANSWER the prayers of heathens? I've seen verses to support YES and NO.

Oy vey!!



Posted by: JeriRose12

Okay, I didn't read the entire discussion here, but what about Jesus telling those who did miracles in His Name to depart, because He never knew them? It seems it has much more to do with our visiting the sick, those in prison, clothing and feeding the poor and the like, that is what God is wanting. I know we get VERY FOCUSED on the miracles, and we want to see God move. But what did Jesus say about the sheep and the goats? He said the SHEEP were those who ministered to Him, by ministering to the LEAST OF THESE. Whoa! This puts it in a whole new light. He never said it was those who did miracles in His Name. The goats were sent to hell because they DIDN'T minsiter to the least of these. We have a group in our church called "Lend a Hand," and we have a prison minister and Pastor Nick (one of the associate Pastors and on staff evangelist) read that scritpure in a whole new light: "You gave money to send 'The Purpose Driven Life' to Me in jail," "You came over and fixed My car," etc. It was MOVING! It was stuff that any of us in the congration can do, and it is God's will for us to do it, as acts of compassion to the unsaved seem to minister MORE than miracles! They told Mark Buntain (missionary to Calcutta, India), "Feed our stomachs before You feed our souls." He started feeding lines that fed thousands every day. As a result, MANY were saved.

Jesus came to preach good news to the poor, set at liberty the bruised, heal the broken hearted... the social and emotional needs of people! Not just to give sight to the blind. Comforting someone in their hour of need, giving someone a hot meal, giving someone clothes, giving someone money when they need finances, these are the ways we MINSITER to Jesus. No wonder He said He neve KNEW us! Becuase we didn't KNOW Him! He said when we did it to the least of these, we did it to HIM! We see that wino on the street, and we don't see HIM! We see that person in jail/prison, and we dont' see HIM! We see that single mother with three kids or more, struggling day to day, and we don't see HIM! We see that child being abused, and we don't see HIM! We see that starving child in a foreign country, and we don't see HIM! Wow.... this is fresh revelation. I am preaching to myself here!

But I guess that doesn't answer Your question as to how they did these miracles in His Name, though they never knew Him....

I was just reading where Jesus said that these cities who had seen His mighty works were in worse shape than Sodom and Gommorah. And doesn't it say in one place, "He could not do many miralces there, because of their unbelief"? So, these people BELIEVED He could do miralces, and they received miracles! But it says: "Then, He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent." (Matthew 11:20) So.... we can conclude that one can have enough faith for the miralces, but, if we don't REPENT and get saved, we aren't one of His. Many are CALLED, few are chosen! It also says the demons believe and tremble.... but THEY aren't saved!

Hmmm.... what is your take, then, on the scripture where the demons said, "Jesus I know, Paul I know, but WHO are you?" This is a whole new can of worms (sorry, if you already discussed this, didn't read the entire thread, just bits here and there). How could they do works in His Name, which would mean the devil KNEW them, in order for them to cast out demons.... yet Jesus said, "I never knew You, depart from me you workers of iniquity."

Is it possible they DIDN'T do the works in His Name, that they were doing it by the devil's power (like a cult might) and they were just using that as an excuse to get into heaven? Perhaps, like my brother-in-law who says, "Lord, Lord," but is in this cult, believing in reincarnation and other things that go against the Bible. Perhaps, what Jesus is meaning in this scritpure, is not that those who say they did miracls in His Name, actually DID do miracles in His Name, maybe He is just pointing out that folks will say these kinds of things to him to argure there way into heaven. "Well, didn't I do all this for You?" And He will say, "No, I never KNEW You." So, they never had a personal, one on one relationship with Him, and they only claimed to do these things in His Name. Back to sheep in wolves clothing.

For instance, I was reading in the Christian Science magazine that someone was healed by the blood of Christ. Yet, they don't beleive in repenting of their sin in that one moment in time when we make a decision to follow Him and get saved. I told the Christian Science lady about Benny Hinn and people getting healed. She said that was wonderful, but who was Benny Hinn. See it? Can't you see these kind of people, saying, "But I did thus and such in Your Name...." You see, they were deceived, by these cult teachings, thinking they would get to heaven, and He will say, "So what if you used My Name? I didn't know You!" In other words, You never humbled Yourself and repented to me and came and did my will. You followed after false teachings and threw My Name around as though I condoned what You were teaching.... and it was lies. I didn't know You, because my blood didn't cover You, so I couldn't look upon You and see My Robe of Righteousness and say 'That one's mine.' " Well, you get the drift.

The demons attacked the sons of Schiva (sp?) who tried to cast them out. The demons didn't know THOSE guys. But I think they used Jesus Name. So.... how does this fit? If these things can be done in His Name, without a personal relationship with Him, why couldn't the sons of Schiva do it? Maybe they had no faith, were just trying to follow a formula....

Well, this is all mind bending. And the Bible says we wrestle such things to our own hurt. What I really want to do it seek Him and pray for folks. So, I will go for now and check in later.

~JeriRose~
Finding HIM in 2005


Posted by: Christian Commando

Ah, I found the passages- Matt. 7:15 & 22-23. Now, I was wrong where I thought the Disciples had tried to stop them. Forgive me as had another Scripture mixed up with this.

But, we can see where these people claimed they had prophesied in Christ's Name as well as cast out demons in His Name and wrought many works- miracles in His Name. Yet Christ tells them in verse 23- "And then will I profess to them, I never knew you, depart from Me, ye that work iniquity".

Now, God also declares satan will never work to destroy himself or his kingdom. Thus, if we realize this, and those people had cast out demons, they had to have been unsaved people, but who had great faith in God's Word, but not Salvation.

JeriRose- Cults do works under the power of satan, for the fact they do not believe in the same God True Christians do. Cults actually do not cast out demons, they always have in practice, some form of demonic practice, such as meditation, hypnosis, speaking to the dead, idolizing- one or more of false gods, demonstrating psychic abilities, etc.

Now, Jesus declared between the Scriptures I mentioned we could tell these people by thier fruits. Normally you'll find, there are specific differences in the way they do such things we've talked about, that do not coincide with God's Word. Yet, they can do this in the Name of Jesus Christ and God will answer this.

But, as seen by the Scriptures I mentioned, they are unsaved as well, for the fact they are relying on the "works" they did to be accepted into Heaven.

Thats why even a person who knows the doctrine of Salvation cannot be saved just having this knowledge. If haven't had the "heart felt" change to bring them to true repentance and seeking forgiveness and Christ as Lord and Savior, they can claim they are Christians, but are not.

God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

As far as I know God gave everybody an amount of faith which he can work with.

The ones which Jesus says shall depart from him are those which did not his will. Were they true christians? I don't think so. There are many religious people which seem like christians but only from the outside.


Posted by: Christian Commando

Correct on all counts Frederik and MamaCat for both of your last posts. Keep in mind, unsaved people are limited in thier faith for the fact of lacking the Holy Spirit dwelling within them.

Since God is omnipotent, our faith, if willing to allow it, could be unlimited, if allowed the Holy Spirit to fully handle every aspect of our lives, this is what is known as the struggle of man from unsaved- "Natural",- saved but still struggling- "Carnal" to in the perfect Will of God in all aspects- "Spiritual".

I haven't met anyone at the "Spiritual Man" level as yet, for don't know of anyone who has no struggles at all.

One of the major failings of Christian religion is not keeping up with preaching the Gospel enough. I've been to so many Churchs where they preach all around it, but many never even offer a weekly chance for unsaved to recieve Salvation.

As a result, because so many are pressuring so much on growing in God than Salvation, many people have come to believe going to church, helping there, being good to people etc,etc, all get them into Heaven.

I've had several reactions from speechless to boasting to questioning to anger when asked people who thought thier works were getting them there, what happens when they screw up and sin? do they go to Hell then?

You are right Frederik, there are alot of "fake Christians" I call them, out there. Partly because of ignorance at some point, but also stupidity in not wanting to accept anything else as another part.

MamaCat- Yes, God will answer heathen prayers, as they are no longer "heathen" but Gentiles. A heathen or pagan as known from Old Test days, were outside the realm of getting Salvation.

Today, because they are now known as Gentiles who are not Jews, they are no longer "heathen" or pagan. (Notice Christ even called the unsaved man who stopped and helped the true believer who'd been beaten and robbed, a Samaritan.)

In Old Test days, people like you and I would've been considered like the forbidden foods God listed for Jews- dirty, impure, etc. But, not since Christ has been here lived and died for all of us now.

God Bless!!


Posted by: MamaCat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
MamaCat- Yes, God will answer heathen prayers, as they are no longer "heathen" but Gentiles. A heathen or pagan as known from Old Test days, were outside the realm of getting Salvation.

Aren't you just picking nits here? Aren't the terms heathen, pagans, Gentiles all interchangable?? Where does it say that heathens from the OT were outside the realm of getting salvation? Wouldn't that mean God is a respector of persons? Is not salvation available for everyone?

heathen
 1. One who adheres to the religion of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism or Christianity.
 2. One who is regarded as irreligious, uncivilized, or unenlightened.

pagan
 1. One who is not a Christian or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
 2. One who has no religion.
 3. A non-Christian.
 4. A hedonist.

gentile
 1. One who is not of the Jewish faith or is of a non-Jewish nation.
 2. A Christian.
 3. Archaic. A pagan or heathen.

Seems like a person could be a heathen, a pagan and a Gentile at the same time! But I do agree with you that now the entire world is just made up of two groups: Jews and Gentiles AND Christians and non-Christians. One can be a Jewish Christian, a Jew who has given his life to Jesus. One can be a Gentile Christian, a Christian who is not Jewish. Would a non-Jewish Christian be a former heathen or a pagan? Or neither?

You'll have to excuse me.....I think my brain has a cramp.


Posted by: Christian Commando

MamaCat- Many Christian religions including Jewish ones still call unsaved Gentiles Heathens or pagans. I do not go so far unless they are Cult followers only. I do not consider atheistic or plain unbelievers as that because pagans and heathens of Old Test. days were the rejected races outside of Jews that had no chance in that time period for Salvation. They were actually considered basically worthless, as they were not to be dealt with other than superficially by God or the Jews.

This is why I have a much kinder view of Gentiles now, as God has changed His countenance towards us, we should towards each other also. I only look at Cultists this way, as they suggest thier bibles or revelations etc confirm God's Word, when they can't realize it's God's Word that confirms or rejects all other doctrines plus much more.

Go ahead and interchange them, thats fine, I just choose not to, thats all, as I do not believe any Gentile race is heathen anymore but only groups who reject the True God of Heaven or enough of His Word to be against God totally.

God Bless!!


Posted by: Christian Commando

I'm not trying to make this appear as tho it's a good thing being unsaved and having that amount of faith. Just keep in mind, they are still lost to Heaven.

Many have asked me over the years why some good people- (still unsaved) they are told go to Hell when had done good for God and people all thier lives. Well, God gave them the choice to belong to Him or not.

God is a loving Father who gives us abilities above and beyond all other creatures on earth. some will have more or less faith individually. some will have more or less belief individually.

The main point I pray that people will understand in this exchange of postings, is not wether or how much faith a person unsaved has, for we must have some in order to believe and trust in things as we go thru our lives, but that people would understand having all faith without Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is worthless in the end.

For you are still lost to God. As God declares- He who hath not the Son, hath not life. (Eternal Life with God).

See, all the things I did during those first seven years speaking His Word helping others did not honestly Glorify God. what I did notice after getting saved, was people asking me what had changed as the message was different somehow.

The difference was the Holy Spirit speaking such things thru me and people noticing this difference in the message. Only God can know what makes the difference between when a physical man speaks on his own to others, compared to God, as the Holy Spirit speaking to them thru that person.

Thus since God declares the body is lifeless without the Spirit and that the unsaved are dead in Christ, what kind of witness is this human only faith, for God, when they still do not belong to Him?

God Bless!!


Posted by: MamaCat

This is probably just going to get more confusing as it goes on.

I know people, lots of people, think they are Christians by their good works alone.

Those prophets who called Jesus LORD were apparently able to cast out demons....


22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?

If they are false prophets, I don't get how they could cast out demons! It would be easy to falsely prophesy and do good works without being born again, people do that all the time. I guess how they managed to cast out demons is one of those mysteries!!


Posted by: Christian Commando

Sweet MamaCat, consider this- the time Christ sent the Disciples out and they were casting out demons, so was Judas and Christ called Judas- "Diabolis"- which is Greek for- "the devil in human flesh". (He was doing imitation, as it were, miracles). (Or -counterfeit miracles is another term used).

Now do you understand? God Bless Sis!!


Posted by: MamaCat

Ok, I suppose I can file this under 'false miracles and signs and wonders by the unsaved' and let it be.'

I think the bottom line is relationship with Jesus, not what we do or don't do!