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If Adam and Eve had not sinned would we still be naked today?

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Posted by: Frederik

Or would God have said one day that we shall get some clothes?
I mean what about the people which would have lived in the cold countries?
And clothes are also a good thing. I mean I wouldn't even want to run around naked if I was the only human alive.
Clothes also separate us from the animals. Why did God want us to be naked just like the animals?
And if God originally wanted us to be naked then why are the people in heaven not naked again?
Did God change his mind cause he saw that being naked is not good?
Being naked is also not very hygienic. Imagine you have just been to the toilet and then you sit down on your new leather chair not wearing anything. The poor chair.
Do you think this is hygienic? I already don't like it when a cat sits down anywhere with her naked bum touching things...


Posted by: akabezalel

According to Jerry, Adam and Eve were dressed the same way Jesus was dressed in His heavenly garments.

They were on fire from the waist up and on fire from the waist down, just as Jesus is today.

"Naked" is mistranslated, it actually means Adam began to see Eve as a sexual object and to lust after her which stripped them both of the fire of God which clothed them because of the impure thoughts and actions of sin that entered into Adam.

When you stand dressed in the fire of God you have no need of clothing.

That is how we should desire to be dressed. It is also how we will be dressed when Jesus returns for us... on fire from the waist up and on fire from the waist down... we will be like Him and that includes the fire of God.

When you have nothing to hide like sin or shame or lack of Faith then you are stripped naked in the Presence of God and stand in His fire without thought of your nakedness and without shame.

This really has nothing to do with clothing, this nakedness is of the spirit and is not to be feared or ashamed of.

And BEFORE you ask why Shem was cursed because of seeing Noah naked... the word 'naked' is once again mistranslated in order to hide the more embarassing meaning... Shem committed homosexual rape on Noah as he laid drunk and naked on his bed. If you don't believe me ask Jerry.

Because of the touchy issue here of sexual sin I will leave this thread open only a short while longer. If this turns into one of your question merry-go-rounds I will close it immediately.


Posted by: bill & alexis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederik
Eh???
No need to be so snippy.
Frederik,
Carol is not being snippy with you! You are at a stage where you will be held to little higher standard than you have been. The Moderators are going to mentor you, and keep you on track - for your spiritual growth, and edification!


You have proven your knowledge of the Word of God, and your subsequent "merry-go-round" lines of questions are not the wisest path at this stage of your walk. So you will be expected to exhibit a little higher responsibility, and leadership on the site!

Congratulations, you have been promoted - thus you no longer get diapers, as a baby Christian would!

So don't take offense, Carol has a lot of wisdom in this area, and both of us know where you are in your walk at this point.

Feel free to ask your questions, but accept the answers the Bible provides, and continue seeking God!

Be in peace, and have a very blessed day in the LORD!
Semper Fi!
-Bill

BTW Frederik, I hope you will lead-by-example, and be one of the site members who starts to offer more answers, to those in greater need than your own, than the questions you ask! Again, congratulations Frederik, you are on the right track - GOOD JOB!


Posted by: MamaCat

Quote:
Originally Posted by akabezalel
According to Jerry, Adam and Eve were dressed the same way Jesus was dressed in His heavenly garments.

They were on fire from the waist up and on fire from the waist down, just as Jesus is today.

"Naked" is mistranslated, it actually means Adam began to see Eve as a sexual object and to lust after her which stripped them both of the fire of God which clothed them because of the impure thoughts and actions of sin that entered into Adam.

When you stand dressed in the fire of God you have no need of clothing.

That is how we should desire to be dressed. It is also how we will be dressed when Jesus returns for us... on fire from the waist up and on fire from the waist down... we will be like Him and that includes the fire of God.

When you have nothing to hide like sin or shame or lack of Faith then you are stripped naked in the Presence of God and stand in His fire without thought of your nakedness and without shame.

This really has nothing to do with clothing, this nakedness is of the spirit and is not to be feared or ashamed of.

And BEFORE you ask why Shem was cursed because of seeing Noah naked... the word 'naked' is once again mistranslated in order to hide the more embarassing meaning... Shem committed homosexual rape on Noah as he laid drunk and naked on his bed. If you don't believe me ask Jerry.

I must admit, I do not agree with most of what you've posted here. Do you have verses for it? I'd love to study this more myself. Perhaps Jerry has a study with scriptural references that can be posted?


Posted by: JG

I don't have time to teach this whole lesson but it really is fun.

We must first look at how it started

GEN 1:26 And God said,
Let us make man in our image,
after our likeness:
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Then who did God use as the model

GEN 1:27
So God created man
in his [own] image,
in the image of God
created he him;
male and female created he them.

Psa 104:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul.
O LORD my God, thou art very great;
thou art clothed
with honour and majesty. Psa 104:2
Who coverest [thyself] with light as [with] a garment:
who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: ... Psa 104:4
Who maketh his angels spirits;
his ministers a flaming fire:

Psa 93:1 The LORD reigneth, he is clothed
with majesty;
the LORD is clothed
with strength, [wherewith]
he hath girded himself:


HEB 1:7
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits,
and his ministers a flame of fire.

JESUS is always described as being covered or clothed in fire from the waist up and down.

REV 1:13 .... the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
REV 1:14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;
REV 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
REV 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and
his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

EZE 1:26 .... upon the likeness of the throne [was] the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
EZE 1:27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward,
I saw as it were the appearance of fire,
and it had brightness round about.

DNL 10:5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins [were] girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
DNL 10:6 His body also [was] like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words

We are going to be like Jesus in Heaven
1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Adam and Eve were made in the image of Jesus therefore they looked like him then.

Have you ever noticed that everyone in heaven is clothed.
If naked was so beautiful why do they need cloths in heaven?
Even with no sin God covers the earthly nakedness.
Not one place in the bible does Jesus, an angel or God appear naked.
They all have cloths.
All of the saints in heaven have white robes.

The word for naked in Gen 2 is different than the word for naked in Gen 3.

GEN 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
H6174`arowm, aw-rome'; or `arom, aw-rome'; from 6191 (in its orig. sense); nude, either partially or totally:-naked.

To some Jewish Scholars the AW stands for the glory of God

GEN 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
H5903`eyrom, ay-rome'; or `erom, ay-rome'; from 6191; nudity:-naked

To some Jewish Scholars the Er-rom stands for the erotic nakedness

When Eve sinned the FIRE AND GLORY left her
All Adam saw was the flesh
1TI 2:14 says: And Adam was not deceived,
this was the first sin of pornography
because he chose the flesh over the spirit.

There was no heavenly garments of Glory, Majesty, or Fire. or bright light.
They did not look like a God.
They did not look like Jesus any more.
Remember lightning comes down the arms of God.
Adam had the same thing.
There is fire in his eyes, fire from the waste up and down to the foot.
When they sinned the Holy Spirit left.
The same Holy Spirit that endues (the word endues means cloths) us with power and fire. You are clothed with the fire when you are born again. You can not see it today because you must walk by faith not flesh today.

Jesus said: I command ye to tarry until you are clothed with power and fire when the Holy Spirit comes on you.

Enduo strong's 1746: in the Middle Voice, "to put on oneself, be clothed with," power, Luk 24:49, RV, "clothed." Also See CLOTHE. Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued (clothed) with power from on high.

Jesus was commanding us to be clothed spiritually. Clothed just like he was at the mount of transfiguration. Clothed with the same fire and light and power he has right now in heaven.

When Adam looked on her without the Spirit of God on her, Eve was now a type of naked he had never seen. She was like the animals so he chose lust of the flesh and was cursed for it.

So you see once we chose the Lord the same glory is on us once more.


Posted by: MamaCat

"And BEFORE you ask why Shem was cursed because of seeing Noah naked... the word 'naked' is once again mistranslated in order to hide the more embarassing meaning... Shem committed homosexual rape on Noah as he laid drunk and naked on his bed. If you don't believe me ask Jerry."

I totally disagree with this. The Bible doesn't even come close to saying this!

You'll have to provide verses for this!!!


Posted by: MamaCat

Well, this is the FIRST time I've ever heard this and I am an avid reader of not only the new books but the old time writings too. I watch a lot on Christian TV shows, teaching tapes/CDs, commentaries and such.

It will take a lot more verses and research to convince this that those verses say that!! But I am open to learning...


Posted by: MamaCat

This is NO WAY is anything at all against Jerry or Carol.

I'm just extremely cautious about things I hear concerning the Word of God, especially when I've never ever heard something. I don't care who says it, be it Jerry or Carol or Pat Robertson or Benny Hinn or Creflo Dollar or my pastor or anyone at all! We are all human and can be wrong. I am not saying they are wrong, however, I would just like this teaching to be shown to me via verses or studies or something. I would like to see verses explain this as it would clear up a lot of questions about them that I've had.


Posted by: JG

Quote:
And BEFORE you ask why Shem was cursed because of seeing Noah naked...
the word 'naked' is once again mistranslated in order to hide the more embarrassing meaning... Shem committed homosexual rape on Noah as he laid drunk and naked on his bed. If you don't believe me ask Jerry.


To My Dear Friends:

I have never said and would never say Shem committed homosexual rape. This sounds like the typical case the gay community would try to make.

Shem did not see Noah's nakedness Ham did and Ham was cursed.
So you even started off with the wrong person

In the Jewish community pornography was the sin God was trying to stop
The word ERVAH is the word used for fleshly nakedness. Or to uncover someones flesh. It was never never never used for homosexuality. Oh how that hurt me. Look at how many times it says NEVER UNCOVER the nakedness of someone.

ERVAH is used in 40 verses about 55 times and is always about seeing something you are not suppose to see.

You are never to uncover the nakedness of anyone except your wife or husband. It was and is the protection from pornography.


H6172`ervah, er-vaw'; from 6168; nudity, lit. (espec. the pudenda) or fig. (disgrace, blemish):-nakedness, shame, unclean (-ness). pornography looking on the nakedness of another
40 verses found.
GEN 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the NAKEDNESS of his father,
and told his two brethren without.
GEN 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid [it] upon both their
shoulders, and went backward, and covered the NAKEDNESS of their
father; and their faces [were] backward, and they saw not their
father's NAKEDNESS.
GEN 42:9 And Joseph remembered the dreams which he dreamed of them, and said
unto them, Ye [are] spies; to see the NAKEDNESS of the land ye are
come.
GEN 42:12 And he said unto them, Nay, but to see the NAKEDNESS of the land ye are come.
EXO 20:26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy
NAKEDNESS be not discovered thereon.
EXO 28:42 And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their NAKEDNESS;
from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:
LEV 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to
UNCOVER [their] NAKEDNESS: I [am] the LORD.
LEV 18:7 The NAKEDNESS of thy father, or the NAKEDNESS of thy mother,
shalt thou not UNCOVER: she [is] thy mother;
Thou shalt not
UNCOVER
her NAKEDNESS.
LEV 18:8 The NAKEDNESS of thy father's wife shalt thou not UNCOVER: it [is]
thy father's NAKEDNESS.
LEV 18:9 The NAKEDNESS of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or
daughter of thy mother, [whether she be] born at home, or born
abroad, [even] their NAKEDNESS
Thou shalt not
UNCOVER.
LEV 18:10 The NAKEDNESS of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's
daughter, [even] their NAKEDNESS
Thou shalt not
UNCOVER: for
theirs [is] thine own NAKEDNESS.
LEV 18:11 The NAKEDNESS of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy
father, she [is] thy sister,
Thou shalt not
UNCOVER her NAKEDNESS.
LEV 18:12
Thou shalt not
UNCOVER the NAKEDNESS of thy father's sister: she
[is] thy father's near kinswoman.
LEV 18:13
Thou shalt not
UNCOVER the NAKEDNESS of thy mother's sister: for
she [is] thy mother's near kinswoman.
LEV 18:14
Thou shalt not
UNCOVER the NAKEDNESS of thy father's brother, thou
shalt not approach to his wife: she [is] thine aunt.
LEV 18:15
Thou shalt not
UNCOVER the NAKEDNESS of thy daughter in law: she
[is] thy son's wife;
Thou shalt not
UNCOVER her NAKEDNESS.
LEV 18:16
Thou shalt not
UNCOVER the NAKEDNESS of thy brother's wife: it
[is] thy brother's NAKEDNESS.
LEV 18:17
Thou shalt not
UNCOVER the NAKEDNESS of a woman and her daughter,
neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's
daughter, TO UNCOVER her NAKEDNESS; [for] they [are] her near
kinswomen: it [is] wickedness.
LEV 18:18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex [her], to
UNCOVER her NAKEDNESS, beside the other in her life [time].
LEV 18:19 Also
Thou shalt not
approach unto a woman TO UNCOVER her
NAKEDNESS, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.
LEV 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath UNCOVERed his
father's NAKEDNESS: both of them shall surely be put to death;
their blood [shall be] upon them.
LEV 20:17 And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his
mother's daughter, and see her NAKEDNESS, and she see his
NAKEDNESS; it [is] a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in
the sight of their people: he hath UNCOVERed his sister's
NAKEDNESS; he shall bear his iniquity.
LEV 20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall
UNCOVER her NAKEDNESS; he hath discovered her fountain, and she
hath UNCOVERed the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be
cut off from among their people.
LEV 20:19 And
Thou shalt not
UNCOVER the NAKEDNESS of thy mother's sister, nor of thy father's sister: for he UNCOVEReth his near kin: they shall bear their iniquity.
LEV 20:20 And if a man shall lie with his uncle's wife, he hath UNCOVERed his
uncle's NAKEDNESS: they shall bear their sin; they shall die
childless.
LEV 20:21 And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it [is] an unclean
thing: he hath UNCOVERed his brother's NAKEDNESS; they shall be
childless.
DEU 23:14 For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver
thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy
camp be holy: that he see no (unclean) thing in thee, and turn away
from thee.
DEU 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass
that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some
(uncleanness) in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement,
and give [it] in her hand, and send her out of his house.
1SA 20:30 Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto
him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious [woman], do not I know that
thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto
the confusion of thy mother's NAKEDNESS?
ISA 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and
the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even
with [their] buttocks UNCOVERed, to the (shame) of Egypt.
ISA 47:3 Thy NAKEDNESS shall be UNCOVERed, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I
will take vengeance, and I will not meet [thee as] a man.
LAM 1:8 Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed: all that
honoured her despise her, because they have seen her NAKEDNESS:
yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward.
EZE 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time
[was] the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered
thy NAKEDNESS: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant
with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.
EZE 16:36 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and
thy NAKEDNESS discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers,
and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy
children, which thou didst give unto them;
EZE 16:37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast
taken pleasure, and all [them] that thou hast loved, with all [them]
that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against
thee, and will discover thy NAKEDNESS unto them, that they may see
all thy NAKEDNESS.
EZE 22:10 In thee have they discovered their fathers' NAKEDNESS: in thee
have they humbled her that was set apart for pollution.
EZE 23:10 These discovered her NAKEDNESS: they took her sons and her
daughters, and slew her with the sword: and she became famous among
women; for they had executed judgment upon her.
EZE 23:18 So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her NAKEDNESS:
then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated
from her sister.
EZE 23:29 And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy
labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the NAKEDNESS of
thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy
whoredoms.

God hated pornography so much in the OLD TESTAMENT there was no forgiveness for it. It was one of the unforgiveable sins.

How many times do you have to read
THOU SHALL NOT UNCOVER ANYONE'S NAKEDNESS BEFORE YOU GET THE POINT. This was pornography not something else.

So please do not put words in my mouth I have never said.


Posted by: akabezalel

Please forgive me... now I have to figure out where I DID hear it so I can get things straight!

Sorry Jerry.


Posted by: JG

Now let's get back to the original question
Adam and Eve were not naked as you suppose


I don't have time to teach this whole lesson but it really is fun.

We must first look at how it started

GEN 1:26 And God said,
Let us make man in our image,
after our likeness:
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Then who did God use as the model

GEN 1:27
So God created man
in his [own] image,
in the image of God
created he him;
male and female created he them.

Psa 104:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul.
O LORD my God, thou art very great;
thou art clothed
with honour and majesty. Psa 104:2
Who coverest [thyself] with light as [with] a garment:
who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: ... Psa 104:4
Who maketh his angels spirits;
his ministers a flaming fire:

HEB 1:7
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits,
and his ministers a flame of fire.

JESUS is always described as being covered or clothed in fire from the waist up and down.

REV 1:13 .... the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
REV 1:14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;
REV 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
REV 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and
his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

EZE 1:26 .... upon the likeness of the throne [was] the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
EZE 1:27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward,
I saw as it were the appearance of fire,
and it had brightness round about.

DNL 10:5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins [were] girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
DNL 10:6 His body also [was] like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words

We are going to be like Jesus in Heaven
1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Adam and Eve were made in the image of Jesus therefore they looked like him then.


The word for naked in Gen 2 is different than the word for naked in Gen 3.

GEN 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
H6174`arowm, aw-rome'; or `arom, aw-rome'; from 6191 (in its orig. sense); nude, either partially or totally:-naked.

To some Jewish Scholars the AW stands for the glory of God

GEN 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
H5903`eyrom, ay-rome'; or `erom, ay-rome'; from 6191; nudity:-naked

To some Jewish Scholars the Er-rom stands for the erotic nakedness

When Eve sinned the FIRE AND GLORY left her
All Adam saw was the flesh
1TI 2:14 says: And Adam was not deceived,
this was the first sin of pornography
because he chose the flesh over the spirit.

When he looked on her without the Spirit of God he chose lust and was cursed for it.

So you see once we chose the Lord the same glory is on us once more.


Posted by: Frederik

Very interesting, thanks Jerry.

But I don't understand one thing. I thought they realized they were naked cause their eyes were opened. But if they wore these fiery clothes and after sinning these clothes were gone then how where their eyes opened? Why did they realize they are naked? Was it because the clothes were suddenly gone or because their eyes were opened?


Posted by: JG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederik
Very interesting, thanks Jerry.

But I don't understand one thing. I thought they realized they were naked cause their eyes were opened. But if they wore these fiery clothes and after sinning these clothes were gone then how where their eyes opened? Why did they realize they are naked? Was it because the clothes were suddenly gone or because their eyes were opened?


If you were standing in The Glory Fire all the time
Then suddenly it was not there
I think you would notice.

So the answer is both

Please read the whole post first then you will understand.

It is very clear they looked like Jesus
They were clothed in the Glory Fire of God

The word for Naked in Gen 2 is Awrome

That is why they did not see the bad nackedness
God never wants you to look at the erome.


Posted by: MamaCat

Thanks for clearing the homosexual part up, Jerry.

As to the pornography, especially between Adam and Eve, wouldn't that make nakedness between a man and his wife pornographic too?

The Bible says the marriage bed is sacred, right? Your analysis would make all nakedness, even between a blessed union of husband and wife, as pornography and lust!

Forgive me, I think you're putting words in it that aren't there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JG
1TI 2:14 says: And Adam was not deceived,this was the first sin of pornography because he chose the flesh over the spirit.

When he looked on her without the Spirit of God he chose lust and was cursed for it.

1Tim. 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

That verse only says Adam was not deceived....

......but he was disobedience and ultimately responsible

......and therefore they were cursed!

The Bible says Adam [and Eve] was cursed for disobedience, doesn't it? I don't see any verses saying they were cursed for porn or lusting. If anything, they experienced shame from being naked and tried to cover themselves.

I don't mean to be argumentative, I just want to understand what you're saying.



Posted by: Frederik

When they were covered with the glory fire then could they not see their legs or their arms? How can you even get a feeling for your body when you cannot see it? This is hard to imagine somehow.This would mean that neither Adam nor Eve had an idea of how their body looked like cause it was covered with the glory fire,right?


Posted by: JG

As I said the word for naked in Gen 2 is different than Gen 3

It always amazes me how the flesh wants to major in the flesh

Let your spirit take control of what is important.

The word for naked in Gen 2 is also applied to babies or that which is pure.
In the Spirit a baby is covered in the Glory.
Some people can see it
some people can not and as we know
some people are just sick.
That is why they end up in jail.

When a mother looks at her baby she is not lusting to have sex with the baby. She falls in love with the Child God gave her.

When Adam saw Eve without the Glory Fire all he saw was the flesh and that is what he chose over God.

In the Jewish community pornography was the sin God was trying to stop
The word ERVAH is the word used for fleshly nakedness
That was wrong and he was cursed for it.

His job was to lead her closer to God.
Jesus would be there in a few hours.
He should have waited and asked Jesus.
Instead he gave into the flesh.
That was not sanctified. That was not holy.
He chose the flesh over the spirit. That is what satan wanted.

He did not see the
AWROM the glorified body. The flame of fire.

He saw the EROME
the flesh without the spirit and sinned.
He failed as a man of God
He failed as a leader
He failed as a husband
He failed as a friend

All he had to do was wait for God
That is why God cursed him.

Because there was no sin in the Garden
Adam could see the glory as Jesus saw could see it.
Because Adam was made to look just like Jesus
He looked as Jesus looked.
I have already given the verses.

Everytime Jesus showed up he was on fire.
They walked in the cool of the day.
The statement "cool of the day"
means "breath or wind of God"
When Jesus showed up they walked in the
wind of the Holy Spirit.

It is the same word for Gen 1
And God breathed on the earth.

It is time for some to take control in the spirit.
It is time for some to understand what is important in life.

That is why Jesus said if you even think on the maiden it is a sin.
We need to get our minds out of the gutter of the flesh and on the spirit of God.

MAT 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after
her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
2PE 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin;

2co10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty
through God to the pulling down of strong holds
2co10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth
itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity
every thought to the obedience of Christ;

-----------------------------------------------
The word used in Gen 2 is only used when refering to a baby or worship or a prophetic walk with God.

GEN 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not
ashamed.

The very next verse for Gen 2: Naked is used here in a worship service.
He worshiped for 24 hours on the floor.

1SA 19:24 And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel
in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night.
Wherefore they say, [Is] Saul also among the prophets?
The word Lay down naked is translated covered in the glory and fire of God. It was not physical nakedness. It was the Glory. You did not have a nudist group you had about 4,000 men worshiping God without their armour on.

Job shows us the nakedness of a baby
JBO 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I
return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed
be the name of the LORD.
This is another example of God's Glory. When we are born we have no sin.


ECC 5:15 As he came forth of his mother's womb, naked shall he return to go
as he came, and shall take nothing of his labour, which he may carry
away in his hand.

Isaiah again used the same word when on his prophetic walk.
He was covered in the Glory of God.
Only those with eyes to see the glory could see it.

ISA 20:2 At the same time spake the LORD by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying,
Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy loins, and put off thy shoe
from thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot.


ISA 58:7 [Is it] not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the
poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that
thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Now we see even God says glorfied nakedness has to be covered with something.

These are just some of the verses used for
AWROME

Except you be born again you can not see this part of the kingdom of God
For the flesh wars against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.

You will always run to what you have a hunger for
Are you hungry for the Lord or the flesh?


Posted by: JG

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaCat
Thanks for clearing the homosexual part up, Jerry.
As to the pornography, especially between Adam and Eve, wouldn't that make nakedness between a man and his wife pornographic too?

The Bible says the marriage bed is sacred, right? Your analysis would make all nakedness, even between a blessed union of husband and wife, as pornography and lust!

Forgive me, I think you're putting words in it that aren't there.

The word does not say the marriage bed is sacred. It says it is undefiled. The word is only used 4 times. But in this contex Paul immediately says if you do something wrong you are a whoremonger. I can not tell you how many couples have asked if watching porn in bed was ok. God forbid, the word is very clear here. Do not use the marriage bed for out of control lust.

So many people have come to me and asked for advice because their marriage partner does not want to do what they want. They then try to use Heb 13 as permission for perversion. You do not have permission to get out of control.

HEB 13:4 Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but
whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
G283 amiantos, am-ee'-an-tos; from 1 (as a neg. particle) and a der. of 3392; unsoiled, i.e. (fig.) pure:-undefiled.

James used the word this way.
JAM 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To
visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep
himself unspotted from the world.

Even in marriage I pray people want to be pure, undefiled and keeping themselves unspotted from this world.

So many are using the bed as an excuse to satisfy their lust to hurt their spouse by asking them to do something very impure.

So yes my friend even in marriage you can sin if you get out of control.


Posted by: MamaCat

Quote:
Originally Posted by JG

The word does not say the marriage bed is sacred. It says it is undefiled. The word is only used 4 times. But in this contex Paul immediately says if you do something wrong you are a whoremonger. I can not tell you how many couples have asked if watching porn in bed was ok. God forbid, the word is very clear here. Do not use the marriage bed for out of control lust.

So many people have come to me and asked for advice because their marriage partner does not want to do what they want. They then try to use Heb 13 as permission for perversion. You do not have permission to get out of control.

HEB 13:4 Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but
whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
G283 amiantos, am-ee'-an-tos; from 1 (as a neg. particle) and a der. of 3392; unsoiled, i.e. (fig.) pure:-undefiled.

James used the word this way.
JAM 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To
visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep
himself unspotted from the world.

Even in marriage I pray people want to be pure, undefiled and keeping themselves unspotted from this world.

So many are using the bed as an excuse to satisfy their lust to hurt their spouse by asking them to do something very impure.

So yes my friend even in marriage you can sin if you get out of control.

My point, of course, was that when the glory was removed from Adam and Eve, that seeing each other naked, and now having the knowledge of good AND evil, didn't automatically make them pornographic and lustful for each other. Since they were married, I prefer to believe their physical union and "knowing" one another, was an expression of love and purity as husband and wife.

I completely agree that porn, lust, perversion and all that junk have no place in any life, married or not. It just seemed that you took a leap of inference with Adam and Eve that wasn't there.

And this whole entire thread has morphed into something else and has, frankly, worn me out!


Posted by: JG

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaCat
My point, of course, was that when the glory was removed from Adam and Eve, that seeing each other naked, and now having the knowledge of good AND evil, didn't automatically make them pornographic and lustful for each other. Since they were married, I prefer to believe their physical union and "knowing" one another, was an expression of love and purity as husband and wife.


I find that logic interesting because it is against the proof text

GEN 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they
[were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made
themselves aprons.

What was the very first reaction to Erome.... or physical nackedness
They were ashamed and covered themselves.
Who were they covering themselves from the animals HMMMM
Who could see them except each other.
Why would they find it necessary to cover themselves
Unless maybe they had lost the covering of the Glory of the Lord
You said:
Quote:
I prefer to believe their physical union and "knowing" one another, was an expression of love and purity

If it was an expression of love and purity why didn't they just stay the same and jump in the sack. There was no one there to see them.
No my friend this is the nakedness God did not want.
Even God made clothes and covered them with animal skins.
Who was he covering them from.....
There was no one but Adam and Eve.

Now God shows up.
If God had made them that way why were they ashamed for God to see them

GEN 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid,
because I [was] naked; and I hid myself

HMMMM
There is that erome again that fleshly nakedness again.
Reaction was they were ashamed and afraid.

Your logic does not match the situation.
The tree of Good and Evil showed them sin not nakedness

God even cursed childbirth and brought pain to the woman.

So you see when the tree of good and evil came
man chose his flesh over God for that he was cursed.

As I have already said if he had just waited a few hours Jesus would have been there to settle the whole thing.


Posted by: JG

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaCat

 1Tim. 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

That verse only says Adam was not deceived....

......but he was disobedience and ultimately responsible

......and therefore they were cursed!

The Bible says Adam [and Eve] was cursed for disobedience, doesn't it?


No it does not.
The word says Eve was deceived therefore the curse was to curse the fruit of sex. We see in the New Testament that because she was deceived Adam would now be over her.
GEN 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

EPH 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
EPH 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
EPH 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.

Now unto Adam God said because you obeyed a person who was deceived you will be cursed because you chose the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eye instead of the truth.

GEN 3:17 And unto Adam he said,
Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, (lust of the eye)
and hast eaten of the tree, (lust of the flesh) (Adam Disobeyed, Eve was deceived)
of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it:
cursed [is] the ground for thy sake;
in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
GEN 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee;
and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
GEN 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread,
till thou return unto the ground;
for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

When will the church become the church God created it to be.
The latest polls say over 80% of all Christians have seen porn at least once in their live.
The latest polls say 40% of all pastors look at porn saturday night before their sunday sermon.

It is time we get back to real purity if we ever want to see the revival God wants. It is time we have real holy men and women of God who can say no to the flesh and yes to the Spirit.

So many talk a good talk but where are the real warriors who only want God.
Where are the soul winners
Where are the real intercessors
Where are the real preachers
Where are the real builders of the kingdom of God.


Posted by: MamaCat

Quote:
Originally Posted by JG
The word says Eve was deceived therefore the curse was to curse the fruit of sex.

It is time we get back to real purity if we ever want to see the revival God wants. It is time we have real holy men and women of God who can say no to the flesh and yes to the Spirit.

Were Adam and Eve created male and female in every way?

What was God's original plan for reproduction and population of the earth if they hadn't fallen?

What is "the fruit of sex" that was cursed?

Is everything done in our flesh considered cursed? Hugging a friend? Smelling a flower? Holding a baby? Hearing angels singing? Kissing a child? Watching a sunset?

Our bodies are amazing ... "fearfully and wonderfully made" by God. Why do that if the flesh was only going to be cursed in God's eyes?

I'm probably totally missing your points. I am asking 10 cent questions and you're giving $100 answers!


Posted by: Christian Commando

Pastor Jerry- If alright with you, I'll throw something in here that might be of some value.

MamaCat- I suspect the understanding Pastor is trying to show is that, Adam and Eve, according to other Scriptures God declares, were originally able to be more attracted to the spiritual part of man- the inner man as it were, not so much the physical part.

In essence, it would be the Glory of God in thier perfected state, not just the physical part.

God always stresses to be more trained to looking at the inner person not the physical part. Since man sinned, we are more likely to judge people by looks now, more than the inner beauty of God's Holy Spirit dwelling within them.

Thus, a union of those two in the perfected state, would've been more God oriented in becoming one flesh, not being attracted by physical lust for each other.

Don't know if thats right, but... it's the way it appears to me. So, correct me if I'm wrong Pastor.

God Bless both of you!!


Posted by: Dálach

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaCat
Well, this is the FIRST time I've ever heard this and I am an avid reader of not only the new books but the old time writings too. I watch a lot on Christian TV shows, teaching tapes/CDs, commentaries and such.

It will take a lot more verses and research to convince this that those verses say that!! But I am open to learning...

I agree, Mamacat... There seems to be a lot of "Reading between the lines" going on here. If it can't be backed up with God's word then it SHOULD be clearly marked as Personal Opinion.