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Your Help Needed!!!

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Posted by: footprint9

Hi,

I really need your help with this:

Last night I set my (non-Christian and extremely sceptical) boyfriend a challenge.

The Problem
Despite never having looked at it in detail, his stance is that the Bible is a lot of rubbish and that Jesus was not who he said he was, not did he do the things the Bible reports him to have done.

The Challenge
So I invited him to study the available evidence on Jesus and research who he actually was. This has been something that I have been meaning to do myself for a long time, both to try and answer some of my own questions on this topic and because it appeals as an academic challenge.


Where you come in:

I need your help in this research

I am planning a two-fold investigation, looking at the authorship and veracity of the different parts of the Bible (esp. NT) and also examining contemporary non-Biblical sources relating to the life and acts of Jesus.

If anyone knows any good academic studies/source material on the subject then please let me know.

Similarly, I will obviously need to assess the counter-arguments to the Christian claim, so any material on this would also be appreciated - particularly anything which appears to be very convincing (I do not want to be unprepared when facing my boyfriend’s research)


Generally I wouldn’t advocate the academic approach to bringing someone to faith, but I am in an environment of the leading scholars in the world, so I have to address them on a level they can understand. I am really hoping that by engaging with the evidence (which my boyfriend always claims the lack of which is a key reason he dismisses Christianity) that my boyfriend will come to see that all the historical evidence points to a truth he can’t ignore, and that he will be forced to reassess and see why he is really resisting Christianity so strongly.

I ask for your help and prayer in all of this.

In faith

J


Posted by: christythompson

I feel God speaks to the heart

Jesus I pray you open this mans eyes to see what life is without you.
God show him his need for you salvation and touch in his life.
God call his name at all sides
Help this girl to model who Christ is to him
Let her life be an example
God bring him to repentance
Save him

I pray that you show this girl to be equally yoked.
That you bring your word alive to her.
Ground her in a spirit filled bible based church
Dating is a form of courtship
She needs to date a Christian
I know she wants this boyfriend saved
but until then....
backing up and seeking your face
seeking your will for her life
is where you want her....
Bless her father


Posted by: footprint9

Dear Christy,

You're right - God does speak to the heart - that's exactly what I'm hoping will happen in this case. This is partly to create a forum through which I hope he will be more receptive to God's voice rather than disregarding and ignoring it.

However, I also feel that ignoring questions we have can leave room for doubts, which can play on our minds until they get out of proportion and thus prevent God from reaching our hearts.

If we are not willing to seriously address issues relating to the claims of Christianity that non-believers feel are important, can we really expect them to listen to us about other things?

This is something I've been planning to do for a while, as I feel it will also help to strengthen my faith to examine these things for myself rather than simply rely on the words of others. I trust in God and believe that there is nothing that he cannot do - but I cannot expect non-believers to have a blind trust in what I say, because I am simply a flawed human being. It would be nice to have something more 'worldly' which they can relate to, to back up what myself and the Bible say to make them more open to seriously addressing what Christianity is on a more personal level.

As such I ask for your prayers and your practical help in this.

With Love

J


Posted by: MamaCat

My first thought is why you are unequally yoked with this guy??

Secondly, remember you are fighting principalities and powers, spirits of unbelief and doubt, and satan has his mind veiled.

Some good books you might have him read are:

Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell
Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis
The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel
Examine the Evidence series of booklets by Ralph Mancaster [he has a website by that name, too]

IF you can get him to read any of these books then pray and bind the demonic spirits who have taken him captive. Until the veil is ripped from his mind and heart, you as like someone trying to describe a sunset to a blind man. Perhaps he'd go with you to see Passion of Christ?

I know you probably don't want to hear this, but you should seriously consider NOT continuing to have him as your boyfriend. God can't bless this and it will hinder your prayers.


Posted by: akabezalel

There is only one piece of reference material you need for this debate... The Bible. You can read men's interpretation of who they think Jesus was but God placed all the information you need to lead someone to Jesus right in the one book.

The Bible has been good enough to lead the unbeliever to Jesus for 2000 years and nothing man can write will improve on it.

If you must turn elsewhere try the writings of Josephus and esword.com (a free Bible program) has an 'extra' called "Jesus from Seven Sources".

Go to the library and find a "Foxes Book of Martyrs" (the older the better).

You can learn alot about any person by studying the lives of their friends/followers, this is why we are supposed to "Walk the Walk and Talk the Talk", if we do not then the people around us cannot and will not see Jesus for who He really is.

Do not expect your unsaved boy friend to understand ANY of the books (no matter which ones he reads).

Until the Holy Spirit lights up the Word, he will never understand anything except your life, how you walk, how you talk, how you act, how you believe.

He will never be able to understand you or your love for him or for Jesus until he has experienced God's love for himself.

He is incapable of loving anyone until he knows what real love is. He can have a weak reflection of emotion and/or lust but he cannot love.

This is why we are not to be interested in anyone who is not saved as potential mates, business partners or close friends.

They simply cannot understand the values of 'Love', 'Commitment', 'Morals', 'Relationship' or 'Salvation' and they will adversely affect your walk and belief by the compromise they introduce into your life.

Your witness, your 'living epistle' is the only book any person will ever read and come close to understanding who Jesus really is.

If you compromise then they call Jesus a liar.

If you walk in sin deliberately they say Jesus is not really the Son of God.

If you wallow in sickness and handicap they say Jesus does not heal.

If you tolerate open sin they will say Jesus does not live.

If you hate they say Jesus is not Love.

If you are angry they say you don't know Jesus.

You are the only Book your boy friend will ever understand about the life of Jesus and who He really is.

Your only book is the Word of God and the only 'Commentary' you need is the guiding of the Holy Spirit.

That is all you need to know who Jesus is.


Posted by: footprint9

Thank you Mammacat & akabezel for your advice, I'll see if I can get hold of some copies. I bought the 'Mere Christianity' book for a friend earlier this year, maybe I'll be cheeky and see if she'd let me borrow it back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akabezalel

Do not expect your unsaved boy friend to understand ANY of the books (no matter which ones he reads).
I don't really expect him to understand - in a sense that is the point of the exercise. I want him to find facts and experiences he can't explain. I want him to see people acting in a way that is contrary to all worldly reason and ask why that is. I want him to go on from that to look closely at the Christians around him and begin to try and work out why they are different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akabezalel

He is incapable of loving anyone until he knows what real love is. He can have a weak reflection of emotion and/or lust but he cannot love.

This is why we are not to be interested in anyone who is not saved as potential mates, business partners or close friends.
Do you mean by this we shouldn't reach out to unbelievers? How are they supposed to come to know Christ through our 'living epistle' if we don't let them close enough?

I believe you on the first point you made, he currently loves to the fullest extent that he is capable of. Is it wrong of me to try and give him the means to open his heart more, so that I can love him to my fullest extent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by akabezalel

Your witness, your 'living epistle' is the only book any person will ever read and come close to understanding who Jesus really is.

You are the only Book your boy friend will ever understand about the life of Jesus and who He really is.
I guess that's part of the reason that I'm so worried!

I understand your concerns as to being 'yoked to an unbeliever'. It's not ideal, I admit. There are definitely times when I wish I could go out and find myself a nice Christian guy because it'd be so much easier. But should we give up on people just because it isn't always easy? It would be a lot easier in some respects to insulate myself by shunning contact with all non-believers and living away from the hubbub of the world, but I feel that is a very selfish form of Christianity.

With love
J






Posted by: akabezalel

Quote:
Do you mean by this we shouldn't reach out to unbelievers? How are they supposed to come to know Christ through our 'living epistle' if we don't let them close enough?


A spouse, business partners and close friends are all "Intimate" with you, they are different from those we meet on a less intimate, acquaintance type daily basis.

I did not say turn your back on everyone and there is really no way you can twist my words to mean that.

You do not need to be intimate with someone to lead them to Jesus.

Quote:
I believe you on the first point you made, he currently loves to the fullest extent that he is capable of. Is it wrong of me to try and give him the means to open his heart more, so that I can love him to my fullest extent?


Yes it is wrong. It goes against the direct Word of God and that makes it wrong and as such a sin.

This sounds like you just want him saved so he can love you, that is a bit selfish don't you think?

You want him saved, not for his eternal salvation but for your own pleasure.

Quote:
I understand your concerns as to being 'yoked to an unbeliever'. It's not ideal, I admit. There are definitely times when I wish I could go out and find myself a nice Christian guy because it'd be so much easier. But should we give up on people just because it isn't always easy?


Not ideal? Who lied to you and told you that you were not worthy of God's Ideal for you?!

God's Ideal for you is NOT some one who doesn't believe in His Son!

You don't give up on people you walk away from because they compromise your walk, on the contrary you have just removed the BIGGEST obstacle to their Salvation... YOU.

You pray for them and intercede for their Salvation, you stand in the gap for them and you WAIT for God to move in their life. God, not you!

Quote:
It would be a lot easier in some respects to insulate myself by shunning contact with all non-believers and living away from the hubbub of the world, but I feel that is a very selfish form of Christianity


Once again I DID NOT say shun the un-believers!

I also DID NOT say become a hermit!

I said DO NOT BE INTIMATE WITH THEM in MARRIAGE, BUSINESS OR FRIENDSHIP!

You DO NOT need to be intimate with unbelievers for them to read your life or to lead them to Jesus.

They watch you every moment of the day in one form or another.

One way unbelievers can tell what kind of person you really are is how you act when you THINK no one is watching, trust me they DO watch!


Posted by: jeremiah184

Are you born again? Have you read John and asked Jesus to be your saviour and given your heart and life to HIm for His purposes and Glory? If so, then you need to put Christ first and leave your boyfriend. You are a light to the world in Christ when you obey HIs commands. His commands to believers in your particular case is, frankly, one of the easy ones: do not be unequally yoked. Perhaps the first step you need to take, and I say this as gently as possible, if for you to obey Jesus before you try to teach or lead others to Christ. There are many grey areas of life, many mysteries about God and His ways. But this is a very clear and distinct commandment to believers: do not be unequally yoked. My suggestion is for you to sincerely try to ask God to help you obey His commands, to help you and heal you of whatever would attract you to this person. You are not going to save him through an intellectual discourse on christianity. Love him an dpray for him but I respectfully say to you to stay with him as a romantic interest is a rebellion andmust be confessed and repented of. I for grace to andfaith to chose HIs ways over your ways and wants. ANd all the rest shall be given unto you. There is nothing but heartache ahead for you to be yoked to an unbeliever.


Posted by: footprint9

Quote:
Originally Posted by akabezalel


This sounds like you just want him saved so he can love you, that is a bit selfish don't you think?

You want him saved, not for his eternal salvation but for your own pleasure.
Maybe I am just being selfish, that could be part of it, because I really would the love we share to include God. But this is by no means the only or the main reason I want him to become a Christian and frankly, I'm a little offended that you would think so (okay I didn't express my feelings about this very well earlier). I want him to turn to Christ because it is the most amazing thing that can happen in a person's life, because a life without God fills me with horror and I want to share the wonderful alternative that is on offer to everyone I can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akabezalel
You don't give up on people you walk away from because they compromise your walk, on the contrary you have just removed the BIGGEST obstacle to their Salvation... YOU.
I'm afraid I don't quite get what you mean here - maybe I'm just being dense and missing the obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akabezalel

I said DO NOT BE INTIMATE WITH THEM in MARRIAGE, BUSINESS OR FRIENDSHIP!

You DO NOT need to be intimate with unbelievers for them to read your life or to lead them to Jesus.

They watch you every moment of the day in one form or another.
I beg to differ on this point - I became a Christian mainly through becoming intimate with other Christians (So yes, in answer to jeremiah's question I am a 'born again' Christian - not a term I typically use though). I think until you get to know a Christian, you really can't tell how they are so funadamentally different. You sometimes just can't tell if an aquaintance is a Christian or not - it rarely comes up in normal everyday conversation! Besides, in my experience it is only when you get to know someone and respect their opinions because you are close to them, that you start to seriously consider why they would chose a path that is different to the rest of the world.

But this thread is getting quite off topic!
What I would really like is some help on along the lines I initially stated.
(Oh and as a point of reference people do come to Christ as the result of academic debate and research - our preacher last week discussed several cases of this happening in her experience just last Sunday)

With Love
J


Posted by: pickone

Well, the most intelligent argument I can think of is this:

Do you have a friend with a microscope? See if you can get two slides. One with a human egg and another with a human sperm. Then go visit a maternity ward and ask him to explain his views of how this could happen.

Don't let him say "evolution" because we all know that takes millions of years.


Posted by: footprint9

Liking your style Pickone

Not quite sure where the nearest maternity ward is though...

J