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Are babies sinners?

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Posted by: Frederik

Some christians say that a baby is born without sin and only later in life we choose to sin. Do you agree with this? Somehow this makes no sense to me. Just look at how small children behave. They are way too young to make a choice for sin but in spite of this they already misbehave and fight which each other or try to manipulate their parents. If little children do not have a sinful nature how do we explain this?


Posted by: Sulten

Frederick I think this a very good topic for discussion. I can only say what I believe. I do not believe that little children are accountable before the Lord until they reach an age of accountability. Or rather until they understand right from wrong. I do not hold that babies who are not baptized are going straight to hell as some believe. What kind of justice or mercy would that be? How many babies would have been sent there already through no falt of their own would be unimaginable since the world began.


Posted by: Sulten

I have to add another thought here. This scripture: 1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I think that little children of course do wrong things but they haven't learned yet to fully comprehend their spiritual nature and they are only just starting to comprehend things. They could not be fully accountable to God until they are no longer acting and understanding as the natural man. This is a process that takes time. I have always been taught that we will be judged also according to our light and knowledge or understanding of spiritual precepts. I know some will not agree with me here but that is what I believe and understand.

Any other thoughts out there?


Posted by: Christian Commando

Sis in Christ- great answer. Of which I will only add onto.

Sulten and you Frederik are both right. Christ declared to let the little children come to Him, for they are of the Kingdom of Heaven.

God shows how we can only recieve Salvation when we can make a decision to do so. but, Because of what Christ said, a baby, from conception, thru fetal developement and after birth to an age where they can individually make the choice of who to belong to, are automatically covered under Christ's Blood.

Thus, wether a fetus is miscarried, aborted or a very young child unable yet to decide should die, they go to be with God without question.

Very good topic my friend- God Bless you both!!


Posted by: Frederik

Hi!
I basically think the same as you, Sulten.

But the question is not wether children are not accountable. They are not accountable until a certain age. This is clear. The question is: Are children only not accountable and in spite of this they do wrong things OR are children without sin until the day they choose to sin for the first time? See, I cannot really imagine this. Imagine a child is born and is without sin and then it lives maybe 5 years and is still without sin and then one day it decides to call somebody names for example or to steal something and then suddenly the child falls and becomes a sinner? I mean this had to have a giant impact on the child. Imagine you're the parent of this child and in the morning the child leaves the house, still being without sin, and later in school the child chooses to do something wrong and then it falls like Adam fell in the garden of Eden and later the child comes home from school as a fallen being. Shouldn't there also being a giant difference visible in the way the child speaks and behaves? I imagine that there would be a tremendous difference which every parents would notice. I mean imagine the difference between being without sin and being a fallen sinner. This is like day and night.
Somehow this theory that children are without sin until they fall one day makes no sense to me or at least I find it very hard to comprehend. But on the other hand we have the problem, if children are already born with a sinful nature then what about Jesus? He was also born as a baby. But he didn't have a sinful nature?
Very confusing.


Posted by: Christian Commando

Dear Brother in christ- You know the answer to that.

What does God say? You know my friend- Sin entered the world by one man and death by sin. As a result, the sinful nature is thus passed upon all flesh. The sinful nature is already within a fetus developing in a mother's womb, of which becomes evident, shortly after birth, as they grow, showing both good and evil tendancies.

Being so young, they won't understand right from wrong, but the nature is there to be influenced by spiritual forces- God or satan.

The sinful nature being inherited, is something that starts from conception, because it's passed on by the mother and father's part in conception of a life. Thats why it started way back with the first two children of Adam and Eve- Caine and Abel. You know the story.

God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Dear Brother in christ- You know the answer to that.

What does God say? You know my friend- Sin entered the world by one man and death by sin. As a result, the sinful nature is thus passed upon all flesh. The sinful nature is already within a fetus developing in a mother's womb, of which becomes evident, shortly after birth, as they grow, showing both good and evil tendancies.

Being so young, they won't understand right from wrong, but the nature is there to be influenced by spiritual forces- God or satan.

The sinful nature being inherited, is something that starts from conception, because it's passed on by the mother and father's part in conception of a life. Thats why it started way back with the first two children of Adam and Eve- Caine and Abel. You know the story.

God Bless!!



This is how I learned it. But I know this one christian who is an apostle who says that God himself taught him through angels and this man says that babies are born without sin.
Actually his other stuff is okay. He seems to know a lot and has wisdom but I cannot agree with this.


Also if it is passed on in conception how come Jesus did not get it?


Posted by: Christian Commando

Well, the problem is, people can be given titles, but when preaching or teaching a religion's and not a true God Scriptural teaching, they are decieved.

Religion is satanically influenced, man concieved guidelines, steming from evil influence to go according to personal beliefs, rather than what scripture literally declares or states.

God Bless!!


Posted by: MarkSentMe

Babies are born without sin. Children DO have a sinful nature. All through out Proverbs it talks about discipline and the folly of children.
"Do not keep from punishing the child if he needs it. If you beat him with the stick, he will not die. Beat him with the stick and save his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14)


Posted by: Frederik

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSentMe
Babies are born without sin. Children DO have a sinful nature.


Can you explain this? If a baby is without sin then does it also already have a sinful nature?

Jesus didn't have a sinful nature, right? In this sense he was like Adam before the fall, right?


Posted by: MarkSentMe

Quote:
Jesus didn't have a sinful nature, right? In this sense he was like Adam before the fall, right?



NO. Jesus is God in the flesh. Jesus is not like anyone of this earth. Jesus lived a sinless life. To equate Jesus with Adam is to say Jesus is a sinner.

Quote:
Can you explain this? If a baby is without sin then does it also already have a sinful nature?


Babies are born without sin. Undisciplined and unstructured, children become influenced by the world. Children by nature are selfish. Their self-centeredness and lack of guidance leads to sin.


Posted by: Christian Commando

Dear Frederik- God and christ both declare all people are equally- "born in sin". that means, from the moment of conception, we are sinners. Why? Because both have declared sin was passed unto all flesh by one man and death by sin.

The difference, and this includes I would suspect accountability, is that, children from developing to little ones running around know not the difference yet of good and evil. They must learn. Once each one has, it is up to them to decide who to follow.

God bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

Okay.
But if every human who is born is automatically a sinner then why was Jesus not affected by it? I guess this has something to do with the virgin birth, but how does this work exactly? Why did Jesus have to be born by a virgin?


Posted by: Christian Commando

thats exactly why Frederik. Jesus Christ's physical body, as a seed, was not concieved by a man and woman's counter parts, but deposited in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit. thus, this sinful nature could not have been passed on to Jesus' fetal body thru man.

God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

This means Jesus also had no genes from Mary, right?

Do you know Ron Wyatt? He claims to have found the ark of the covenant and also Noah's ark. He says that on the ark of the covenant there was Jesus' blood. And he had it analyzed and it has 24 chromosomes. Wyatt said 23 chromosomes from mary and only 1 Y chromosome from God to make the child male.

But this makes no sense. If Jesus had genes from Mary then wouldn't he also have had the sinful nature?


Posted by: Christian Commando

My friend, there are alot of people out there claiming alot of things that are not true. Or they are speaking distorted Truths that are used against God and Christianity to disprove God the Trinity, God's Word and more.

I do not believe Jesus Christ's seed, deposited by the Holy Spirit had any part of Mary or Joseph from thier physical bodies in It, or the body would've been tainted with sin.

Now... according to God, was this true? No. For one example, Jesus christ is called the "good Sheperd". The meaning of the word "good" in that translation means- pure, unspoiled, untainted. The same exact meaning given to the word "good" used at the wedding party where Jesus turned water into supposed wine. No. It was- "fruit of the vine"- grapejuice. Jesus saved the "good" "fruit of the vine" for last.

Thus, Jesus Christ's physical body could not honestly contain actual chromosomes, genes or DNA from either Joseph or Mary, or He- Jesus, would've been in an imperfect body.

God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

Hmmmm...
but Ron Wyatt claims that he is right. Why should he make this up? I mean he tried to support the bible with his stuff.

Jesus put very much emphasis on him being the son of man, meaning that he died as a human for everybody who belongs to the human race. If Jesus had no genes from Mary then what about him coming from the line of David? Cause if he had no genes from Mary genetically he had nothing to do with David then Jesus could also have been born by a woman which did not belong to this line.


Posted by: Christian Commando

Notice my boy, how God states this "virgin birth"- Jesus was born "of" a virgin. Mary gave birth to a baby that was never concieved of by sin tainted male and female counterparts.

Mary or Joseph comes from the line of David. tho the body of Jesus was not "concieved" by physical means, He was "born" as a baby thru physical means. this is what God means by Jesus belonging to the "line of David".

Because Jesus was physically born to that couple, naturally then, Jesus would be considered from that past blood line, even if "concieved" by the Holy Spirit's depositing it.

There is a difference between "conception" and "birth" in this respect of Jesus Christ.

God bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

But Jesus had the same blodline as David, right? Cause he was born by Mary.


Posted by: Christian Commando

Now be careful my friend, this is like satan trying to trip up Christ by telling Him to jump off the pinacle because angels will catch Him.

I explained it above. If that isn't clear enough, nothing will be. Jesus was of the bloodline by virtue of being born-"of" Mary, not "by" the physical counterparts in "conception".

God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

But as a baby in the womb you exchange blood with the mother, this means that Jesus had the same blood as his mother, right?
Or how does this work when a baby is in the womb? I'M not a specialist.


Posted by: Christian Commando

Not in this instance my boy. Jesus' body and developement were totally different in that respect. Jesus was not connected to Mary's body physically as a normally concieved fetus would be.

You must remember, this is all from a spiritual action, the Holy Spirit deposited the seed- embryo, of Jesus' - "specially prepared body" in the womb of Mary.

Totally different-

God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

Eh? You mean from one day to the other Mary had a complete grown up embryo inside of her womb?
Was she not 9 month pregnant before she got him?

This seems a bit far off somehow.


Posted by: Christian Commando

Frederik- wake uuup- An embryo is a fetus in the least cellular state, a baby is a more to fully developed fetus. So of course Mary went 9 months with Jesus' fetal body developing inside her womb.

God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Frederik- wake uuup- An embryo is a fetus in the least cellular state, a baby is a more to fully developed fetus. So of course Mary went 9 months with Jesus' fetal body developing inside her womb.

God Bless!!


Oh okay.
You mean God already placed a little fetus inside of the womb? Not just a sperm and an egg?


Posted by: Christian Commando

AAHH, you got it my boy.

God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

Interesting.
But can you also back this up with the bible?


Posted by: Christian Commando

What does God declare? He says that the "seed" of Jesus Christ would be deposited in her womb by the Holy Spirit. The "seed" means- embryo- least cellular level of a fetus.

God Bless!!

BTW- To answer how Christ's body could've developed in this way, consider two things, 1- It was divine intervention where God "made" the "seed" of Christ to be deposited in Mary's womb.

2- Jesus even declared His body was a 'specially prepared body", by the Father- God.


Posted by: Frederik

Okay.
But where was Jesus' spirit during these 9 month? I mean was he in the fetus and not aware of anything which was going on?
I mean how can we imagine this? The one second Jesus is still in heaven and then the next second his spirit goes into the womb and then the lights went out for him until he was born and even at this point of time he was not aware of what was going on since babies do not have a memory and you cannot even remember what it was like being a baby? When did Jesus "wake up" and realize what's going on? When he was like 6 years old?
Do you know what I mean?
Did God say goodbye to Jesus and then he entered the womb and only years later when he was already a child and was conscious of everything he was able to communicate with God again?


Posted by: Christian Commando

Frederik- God declares seceral aspects about man's procreation ability in His Word, and the process God follows in completing a "living being".

1- Just as God "created" Adam and Eve's Spirit-souls at the same time- first, so god declares He knows us before we are concieved.

2- God then made the body of Adam from the dust of the ground- So God declares He knows us before we are born.

3- God waited until He had the phys. body of Adam "made", before He spoke the action of binding Adam's spirit to his phys. body- thus- Adam became a "living being".

Special note- "God Breathed"- translated menas God spoke.

4- God declares that the life of the flesh is in the blood.- Thus, from studies done, we know that blood starts entering a fetus at 23 days after conception.

Special note- This is the first sign that a man concieved fetus shows of becoming a seperate living creature someday from the mother in the future.

5- God declares- The body is lifeless without the Spirit.- Physically, this shows after that first sign seen in #4 is reached, the spirit of that future person is then bonded to that fetal body.

Special note- remember- you and I are developing from a single cell state, where Adam and Eve did not. Secondly- Realize Jesus' developement was slightly different, as God refers to Him thru the Apostles as the "Second Adam".

Yet, I'm sure, because Jesus Christ was developed as a fetus, born and raised like you and I, most likely He did not realize what His purpose was, until God's appointed time Jesus was old enough to understand good from evil, etc, like you and I.

Then, is when you'll find his thinking and actions changing. You'll find, as a young boy already, Mary and Joseph had lost track of Jesus, only to find Him in the temple. Jesus even asked, if they wouldn't realize that is where He'd be?

So realize, while many aspects were the same for Jesus in His fetal developement and birth to ministry age and death, there absolutely were clear differences between His life and ours, being- "God in the flesh" and the "Second Adam".

God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

Wow,
where you do know all these things?
Very interesting.

But there is one thing I don't understand. In the begining God created us as a spirit and put us into a body, right? But in the end after the resurrection we will have a different body, right? No longer a physical body, cause Jesus could walk through walls. This means it's not a physical body, or am I wrong?
However, the body will be different. Does this mean God changed his mind and now he saw that having a different body is better than having the body which we have now?
I mean why did God put us into a physical body in the first place? Living on this earth we are totally dependant on this body and totally influenced by it. Just look at how women are influenced by their hormones. Wouldn't not having a physical body be much better? This way nothing could influence you. What if the physical body good for after all?


Posted by: Christian Commando

From 30 years of reading, studying and researching God's Word and related subjects as needed.

Question 2- Ressurrection and our bodies- Remember when christ took the two disciples up on the hill and was transfigured before them?

It was what Jesus shows us, will happen to our physical bodies at the Rapture for those who've died and to the living bodies of those alive at that moment.

God declares our bodies will be changed, transformed, in the twinkling of an eye- the sinful will take on sinlessness, the corrupt will take on incorruption, etc.

This is what I refer to God glorifying and perfecting our original physical bodies. Yes, it will be our physical bodies, but glorified and perfected like Jesus Christ's body.

After all, God declares Jesus is the "first fruits" of the ressurrection, then every man after Him, according to his order. Since God raised Jesus' old body and glorified and perfected It, so too will ours be.

Last question- why this physical body? Look back in Genesis. what does God declare? "Let Us, make man, in Our image".

Thus, God created the spirit of man to reflect His Holy Spirit. God created a spirit intellect- (soul I call it), to reflect God the Father as the Head of the Trinity. God then made the physical body to reflect His Son, Jesus Christ, who was God in the flesh on earth as a man.

God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

But we get our real new bodies not directly at the rapture but later.

And when God created Adam Jesus didn't already have a human body like he has now.


Posted by: Christian Commando

First question- Where does Scripture say we get other "real new bodies" later?

Second question- Who is to say Jesus did not have a glorified perfected body already before coming to earth when still in Heaven?

I way out in left field my boy on these two beliefs. Why?

1- God shows in the vision of the valley of dry bones, a depiction of what will happen to our physical bodies. The dead's bones shall be raised up and "sinuin flesh" will be put upon them- (Check a concordance for the definition of the word- "sinuin" from that Scripture).

2- How could God have made man in His- God as a Trinity, image, if Jesus Christ did not have a glorified perfected body already all this time?

God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

I thought that before coming to earth Jesus was a spirit just like the Father and only after becoming a man he got this body which he now will have for all time.
Do you think Jesus always looked the way he looks now? Did Jesus always have a human form?


Posted by: Christian Commando

Read Scripture my boy- Why would God "make" a physical body for man, if not part of the "image" of God in reflecting the Trinity?

God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Read Scripture my boy- Why would God "make" a physical body for man, if not part of the "image" of God in reflecting the Trinity?

God Bless!!


I don't know. But why should Jesus always have looked like a man?


Posted by: Christian Commando

Why don't you explain where God got the idea for man to have a physical body, if not from a member of the Trinity? Try reading the story in Daniel of Shadrack, Meshack and Abendigo. See what the King saw for a creature walking with those three in the firey furnace. This is long before Jesus came to earth my friend.

God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Why don't you explain where God got the idea for man to have a physical body, if not from a member of the Trinity? Try reading the story in Daniel of Shadrack, Meshack and Abendigo. See what the King saw for a creature walking with those three in the firey furnace. This is long before Jesus came to earth my friend.

God Bless!!


This is also a good argument.

What about the scene where the 3 men come down to earth and Jacob cooks for them? Are they God?


Posted by: Christian Commando

Read Scripture before and after to find out my friend. What does God say before to after this event to show who they are?

God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

I don't know. Where in the bible is this?


Posted by: Christian Commando

Back in early Old Test times my friend. One way is to readin chronicles until you come across thier name. Look at the parents of that person and you'll have a good idea what order and Book to find thier lives described in.

God Bless!!