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What if somebody believes only because of the signs?

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Posted by: Frederik

For example when somebody in the end times sees that the bible is really correct because it foretold all the things which will happen and then he believes because he sees these things happening. Is this legitimate faith?


Posted by: JeriRose12

Jesus said it was a wicked and perverse generation who sought signs.... In other words, if they only believe because of the signs, they are still wicked and perverse. What if they then see a sign that seems to tell them somehting else is the truth? Like some story your friend told you about Bhudda (sorry for any mispelling of his name) could make a person believe Bhuddism is the way to go?

If a person was convinced of the validity of God, by the fact that prophecies are being fulfilled, yes, that would be legitimate faith, once they then put their faith and trust in God and began following him in their daily lives. That is what the book, "The Case for Faith," is about. This is by Lee Strobel who set out to prove their was no God, and instead proved to their WAS a God! Now, he is a born again Christian. Same with Josh McDowell, who wrote "Evidene that Demands a Verdict," after trying to prove there was no God.

What I really came in here to say is: If you would seek God, as much as you seek the answers to these questions, perhaps you would not keep asking why you have never FELT God and so on. God IS God, and all these questions, of which many seem to throw doubt on that, are only to your own hurt.

Dear Lord, my prayer for Frederik is ONE PRAYER: Let him know for a certainty that you are REAL! Let him quit doubting! Let him EXPERIENCE You and never waver AGAIN on his faith. In Jesus Name, amen.

~JeriRose~
Finding HIM in 2005


Posted by: Frederik

I don't understand this.
Are miracles and wonders not for the unbelievers to see that God is real??
Is this not what it's all about? But if somebody believes because he saw a person get healed or if an unbeliever gets healed and believes because of this then he's wicked and perverse cause he only believed because he saw something or got healed??
Then why are christians even praying for unbelievers?
There are many people which see a miracle and believe because of this and now you say that this is bad?
Todd Bentley also said that the people have to see that Jesus is real. If they see something and then believe then they are evil according to what you said.


Posted by: MarkSentMe

Faith through fear is not faith. If someone saw signs that were coming to fruition and believed, then when the signs stopped or the signs never materialized they stopped believing; that's not faith, that's only believing what you can see. Faith is believing and trusting in the unseen. We can easily be deceived, so only trusting what we see with our eyes or "feel" is not a good indicator. How many people try to justify their sinful nature or their selfish desires by saying "God wants this for me..." or "I prayed about it and now it's happening, so it must be from God..." Signs are subject to our interpretations and our reading into them. But God's Word is not about what we want it to say. God's Word is the same today as it was 2000 years ago, the same as it will be forever.


Posted by: MarkSentMe

If you saw someone get healed by a "healer" who waved a coat and knocked them over, then you saw a fraud! NO ONE on this earth, alive or dead, can heal anyone. Period. ONLY God can heal people. And God will heal or not heal whomever He so chooses. Praying to dead people will not bring about healing. Only the Living God and His Son, Who died on the cross and was raised again, can heal people. No paper prayer mat received in the mail can heal people. No strawberry-scented air freshener with the Indian chief on the can will heal anyone (nor bring money house blessings), no braided strand of garlic can heal anyone Only the Blood of Jesus.


Posted by: Christian Commando

Frederik- God declares His word was written and given to us that others might believe. thus, it is out of faith from all aspects of God, be it from His Word- faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, but also in the seeing of God's Workings, which are shown in His Word.

But, if signs or any one other way God demonstrates His Truth is the only way we would believe, then we are limiting God as a whole. His Word is that which we are to use to test the spirits, for His Word is profitable for proving and reproof of doctrine.

Yet, if not check for the signs of God's workings, we then miss seeing the evidence of His Power and Glory demonstrated. All aspects, as God clearly shows, work hand in hand with each other, but also in balance as well. Thus, all are equally important.

God bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

Allright.


Posted by: JeriRose12

Jesus said that a wicked and perverse generation would SEEK signs. Do you know why this is wrong? We are to seek GOD not signs. The wise men followed the star -- a sign -- but they were seeking The King they new would be born. Jesus said that the crowds only followed him to see another miracle (after he fed the 4,000 -- or was it the 5,000?). You see, Jesus is saddened when we seek after signs instead of seeking after HIM.

Believing because of signs and seeking after signs are TWO DIFFERENET things. When they see a miracle at a Benny Hinn crusade in India, and all the glory is given to Jesus for this, the people want to follow Jesus, NOT THE SIGN. They realize that their gods are false, because their gods have never made a cripple walk or a deaf man hear. So, though the sign led them to believe, it is not the SIGN they believe in, it is JESUS. So, yes, one can come to legitimtate faith in Jesus Christ through seeing signs, but if one quits following Jesus when the signs stop, then one's faith was founded on the SIGNS, rather than on Jesus.

I hope this clarifies some what I was trying to say.

~JeriRose~
Finding HIM in 2005

But I'm super duper really tired now, so don't tax me with another question.


Posted by: Frederik

Jeri, of course Jesus is better than a sign or a feeling. This is not a question. But after all a sign or a feeling is better than nothing, isn't it?
A sign can also greatly encourage you and show you that God hears your prayers. And what is the church without signs and wonders? It's dead.
How are the non-believers supposed to become attracted to Jesus? I think that they have to see God doing miracles. If this wasn't good then also no christian should be allowed to pray for an unbeliever cause he might get healed and this is basically a sign. A miraculous healing is a sign.


Posted by: Christian Commando

My friend-

One of the reasons Jesus spoke so strongly against seeking only a sign for believing was because John the Baptist was foretold by God thru others he would come and pave the way for the Messiah. Yet people didn't even recognize John as a sign, thus they could not accept Jesus as the Messiah when He appeared.

And this still after all the miracles Jesus did. Instead, most of the time He was ascribed to the workings of the devil in miracles, not God.

We can't limit this to only the Scripture where Jesus spoke against the generation being perverse in seeking a sign. Remember, Jesus gave us a whole list of signs to watch for to know when we were in the "last days".

So God is not against our seeking signs as a general rule. but, the Scripture speaking against signs was refering to a people who only saught a sign but not god's word or God Himself in prayer for Truth and faith.

As mentioned before, god clearly gives us a balance to have in understanding of all aspects for faith and belief, all working together for the single good of faith and belief in God and Christ.

God bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando


So God is not against our seeking signs as a general rule. but, the Scripture speaking against signs was refering to a people who only saught a sign but not god's word or God Himself in prayer for Truth and faith.


This explanation makes sense.
Many christians seem to misunderstand the "signs are bad" stuff.


Posted by: Christian Commando

you know, growing up and serving God evangelistically so many years, I've watched as God's children have changed.

We have people out there who were Blessed by God and somehow seemed to change thier teachings to have all teachings based on that one truth learned form the blessing. According to them, you can't recieve other blessings if don't hold to the main one they preach about-

Examples- "Name it to claim it", "believe to recieve", get rich teachings, etc. All based on sound Scriptures of God, but blown out of proportion.

Then those who won't accept anything concrete about God. Nearly anything is acceptable to God somehow. This comes down to basically living in sin intentionally all you want, so long as you follow some routine or method of seeking forgiveness from God in some fashion.

All of God's Word has a time and purpose and as Jesus declared, God's word is built upon itself for structural strength.- "Upon this rock, I shall build My Church".

Each Scripture has It's purpose of meaning, but also support for other ones.

God Bless!


Posted by: Frederik

There are so many distorted theologies out there, it's a real disease.
Sooner or later you just don't know what to believe anymore. I'm really fed up with this stuff.
Sometimes I don't understand how christians can hold on to a theology which has been proven wrong even in their own lives but still they hold on to it! I don't understand this. Somehow they either close their eyes or simply ignore it.
What's so ridiculous about the christians which claim that as a christian you don't even have to be sick anymore is that these people are also not free from diseases. But when they become sick it's always an attack from Satan and not just a disease. This way they always find a way to justify themselves.


Posted by: Christian Commando

God speaks of how there will be some men and women following false doctrines. "Doctrines of demons". There will be those who go to and fro following them, some going like the waves of the sea and more.

God shows when people are doing such things, those of us He brings across them who know the Truth are to share that truth and leave them to decide what to believe. Then we are no longer responcible.

John the Baptist spoke of this to King Herod about his adulterous relationship. Jesus shows this in the story of the Rich man and Lazarus telling the rich man, his friends will have the choice upon hearing the Truth wether to believe or not.

Jesus spoke how things would get all turned around during this time for man. Virtuous Godly beliefs and morals would be exchanged for worldly self centered ones. Friends will become enemies, family members will turn against each other. Neighbors will not get along, men shall become boasters of themselves proud, blasphemers, etc, etc.

So, this is to be expected. The world is changing because the minority thinking of the past has become the majority thinking now. The majority has become the minority. In other words, good moral values are less popular than self centered ones.

God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

But there are many christians which believe false doctrines but not necessarily because they are evil but because the teachers also use bible verses and also sound convincing. With the bible you can back up a lot of false doctrines and make them appear correct. I really wonder wether those christians which claim that nobody has to get sick anymore really experience what they talk about or wether they are just living an illusion.


Posted by: Christian Commando

I've known some practically brought back from death in disease, healed miraculously by God and it becomes thier focal message to preach. This is good if kept in context. If blown out of proportion, then becomes detrimental.

God Bless!!


Posted by: Frederik

Yes. Also what worked for 1 person does not have to work for another person. God is no machine.