Prayer Board Requests

Pages: 1

Mormon guy
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: ajholloway

Hello, I have enjoyed reading posts on your forum, but it seems to me that some of the information on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Daints (Mormons) is incorrect.

I've been LDS for about 15 years, and think I know something about the Church, however I am not an official representative, and my views are my own.

Please post clarifications you would like or questions you would like answered, etc.

Understand that I am not here to "bash", critisize, or convert anyone. I would just like to provide clarifications where I can.

Thanks

Posted by: eagle4him

Does your religion recognize Jesus Christ as Son of God? As God Himself?

Does your religion believe in works as the means to salvation?

Does your religion believe that individuals can become gods through works?

Posted by: akabezalel

My name is Carol and I am the Super Moderator for Anointed.net. I am going to ask the Administrator of the site whether or not you can keep this posted and continue this dialogue.

In the meantime I am moving this to the 'Non-Believers' forum.

This is a "NO FLAME" site and I will delete any post or even the whole thread if I see any arguing, insulting or hate.

EVERYONE KEEP IT COOL!

Realize that this is an evangelical, pentecostal site.

Many of us here have studied mormonism and know ex-LDS people as well as some who are still in LDS and what we do not know as truth about the LDS we can find out so please make sure you do not mislead or sugar coat any of the more unsavory and shady parts and rituals of the Mormon church when they come up.

I encourage only those who are firm in their faith and what they believe and know about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit to participate in this thread.

Thank you.

Posted by: Chris Logan

morman guy,

I pray you will come to know Jesus Christ our Savior and Lord as the one whom died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected 3 days later out of the tomb. He lived on earth as a man but yet was the Savior of the world. He went thru intense spiritual and physical suffering that we might be saved and come to know Him as not only Savior of our souls but as the Lord of our lives. He is our Heavenly FAther.

He is a Father whom loves us unconditionally just "as we are," down trodden and deep in sin, when we come to Him for salvation and we don't or can't do anything in ourselves for He has already done it on the cross for us.

We can't save ourselves nor keep ourselves saved. He already paid the price when He hung upon the cross 2,000 years ago and His word says "IT IS FINISHED!" We can not add to that nor subtract from that! He has done it all! He died upon that cross. He is our ressurected savior and Lord!

In ourselves, we are totally helpless for we can not earn our salvation for it is thru and by His grace and His grace alone.
If we had to earn His love and saving mercy, none of us would make it to Heaven, for the Bible says in ourselves there is no good thing. Our hearts are evil but for the mercy of the Lord and His redemption. without Him we can do nothing---- but with Him all things are possible thru Christ who loves us so. Phil 4:13

I pray you will come to know Him as your savior and Lord of your life and the knowledge that you can't or don't have to earn your salvation---- He loves each and everyone of us just the same! We are all equal in His eyes and our works have nothing to do with our eternal salvation or getting us to Heaven. I can have peace in Him knowing that He has done it all!

We have and do good works because He first loved us and we want to love Him and others back with that perfect love. Jn 3:16 I can never do enough good works to make it to heaven for it is by His shed blood that made the way for me and you.

His love is perfect----His love is real and alive! All I had to do was ask Him to forgive me of my sins, repent, confess and ask Him into my heart to be my savior and Lord. I have the desire to obey Him and to follow the commandment in the new testiment which is "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul and mind and love thy neighbor as thyself!"

You see, ajholloway, it is all to do with HIS love----it is nothing to do with me----it is all Him. I can't do enough good works to save, heal or deliver myself, but He has all the power to do all things even save my soul from eternal damnation and the lake of fire. It has to do with HIM!

I am so grateful that I have learned and come to the knowledge that I can not do anymore or anyless for my salvation, all I had to do was just "Believe Him and His Word, the Holy Bible!" I put my trust and faith in Him because He alone is worthy of that trust!

I praise Him for the knowledge that I am SAVED , born again, by His power, by His name, by His blood!! There is no other one but Him, Jesus and Him alone whom has the power to do that for me. The only way to eternal salvation to the FAther is thru Jesus Christ the Lord. That is the only way! Nothing to do with me!! I did not die upon that cross, He did!

i praise Him that i have good works for the Bible says that faith without works is dead!! But i have good works because of the love that He has placed within my heart and His spirit of love lives and dwells within me! I want to love HIm and others! I want to love my neighbor as myself. He doesn't make me, it is my choice for He is a perfect gentleman and He will not force anything against my own will. I have the choice!

I choose to love, serve and obey Him for it is an honor to be chosen, loved, accepted, and forgiven by the one whom loves me more than any other. I choose to serve and obey Him because He has forgiven me of all my sins! I choose to serve, love and obey Him for His love and presence is the very thing I live for and hopefully will die for. I choose to serve, love and obey Him because I know Him intimately and have a personal relationship with HIm. I know He is alive and real living within my very being and I know His voice, the voice of the Shepherd whom calls his sheep.

I choose to serve Jesus Christ because of the perfect, unconditional, neverending, forever and ever love He has for all His children and the ultimate sacrifice that He made just for you and me! He gave His life that you and I might live! He gave His life willingly that I might be saved, healed and delivered!!

He is more than a prophet, He is more than mere man, He is Lord of all, He is the Son of God, He is the creator of the earth, He is the beginning and the end, He is everything.

Thank you for your willingness to teach us about your faith but as you can easily see, I know in whom I have believeth and am persuaded that He is able ---to keep that which I've committed unto Him against that day!!

He is not only Father, Jesus, the Holy spirit, Savior and Lord, but He is also my healer of soul and body, He is my provider, He is my shelter, He is my fortress, He is my King, He is my peace, He is my hope, He is my Shepherd, He is my life, He is my all, He is my everything---He is more than words can say!

He is Father God, He is Jesus Christ the Son of God and He is the Holy Spirit that abides, lives and dwells within me!!
How could I want or ask of anything more---How could I doubt He is everything and all I could ever hope or ask for?
How could I be so vain to think that I can work my way to Him for my salvation? That is pride and pride comes before a fall! I am not bigger than Christ and His power is greater than any other!!
How could i place myself above Him and all that He has so willfully done for me and even dare to think that I could do anymore such as work my way to Him? HE DID IT ALL!

All the answers I need are in the Holy Bible and all truth is right there and the same for you.

May the Lord Jesus Christ make Himself real to you by His spirit of truth and grace and that you would know He is a God of mercy-----May His mercy and grace follow you all the days of your life and you will dwell in the house of the Lord forever!! and ever, AMEN!

Jesus loves you and so do we!!

Posted by: ajholloway

Quote:

Originally Posted by eagle4him

Does your religion recognize Jesus Christ as Son of God? As God Himself?

Does your religion believe in works as the means to salvation?

Does your religion believe that individuals can become gods through works?

Thanks for the interest. Thanks also to the moderator in recognizing that I am here merely to answer questions/misunderstandings.

Answers:
1. We recognize Jesus Christ as the literal Son of God, and Savior of all mankind. God is not only the Father of his spirit, but of his body as well. We understand that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three seperate persons, and that each has reached a glorified state. These three persons make up the trinity, each with a separate role, and that their unity is a unity of purpose: to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. These three are often called "One God", as in 2 Nephi 31:21.

2. Works are not a means to salvation, it is a gift of God through Christ. Works are a natural product of faith. However, we do believe that some things are necessary for salvation: i.e. baptism, keeping all the commandments of God, etc (which we don't call "works"), and that a person can fall from the grace of salvation by doing things they know they are not supposed to: i.e. major sin.

3. Our religion believes that God is the Father of our spirits, and that, like our earthly parents, we may one day progress to become like Him. i.e. we are of the same "species" as God, to use earthly vernacular. This also is a gift of God, through keeping His commandments, not of works.

Posted by: Rachel R

What I don't understand is honoring a book in addition to the Bible.

I have trouble with elevating the book of Mormon to be equal with scripture.

On the other hand...

I do wish that our faith honored family and missions the way yours does.

My Mother always welcomed the missionaries into her door and really enjoyed conversing with them. They treated her very respectfully and impressed her with their understanding of what they believe.

I wonder how many of our group are as well trained?

Thanks for opening this discussion...

Rachel R

Posted by: ajholloway

Thanks, Rachel, for your question. Below is a quote from the Book of Mormon itself that explains why we believe it is God's word like the Bible. It is from 2 Nephi chapter 29. The "Nephites" mentioned are the people in the Americas that the Book of Mormon was written about/by.

This is an important issue in LDS/Evangelical dialog. I would reccomend to anyone to read the Book of Mormon. Why? Not so that I can convert you, or convince you that what I believe is correct, but to gain an accurate idea as to what we believe and why. This will become more and more important as the LDS Church grows throughout the world -- people you know will learn about it, and perhaps join, and I think it is important for people to know truly what we believe, and why. Forget the old stereotypes and half-truths you see in "Anti-Mormon" literature and films; find out what we actually believe and teach. Anyway, I've rambled long enough, quote below:

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

Posted by: Rachel R

Dear Austin,

That is a quote from the book that you are adding to the Bible.

Of course, they are going to say it is okay to add us to the Bible.

What I am asking is where in the Word of God does it say that it is okay to read and examine another gospel?

I wouldn't risk it.

Revelation 22.

18. "Here is my warning for everyone who hears the prophecies in this book:
If you add anything to them, God will make you suffer all the terrible troubles written in this book.

19. If you take anything away from these prophecies, God will not let you have a part in the life-giving tree and in the holy city described in this book.

Rachel R

Posted by: Chris Logan

Austin,

May I also ask, as I may have not understood you correctly--

-does your church, faith and belief believe that to be born again,

you have to ask Jesus, the son of God, into your heart to cleanse you, forgive you of all your sins, repent of those sins and totally allow Him to turn your life around, , to accept Him as Lord and Savior of your life, and that His Holy spirit then dwells and lives within you, and that He can and will speak to you and your heart and you can have fellowship with Him every day? And you will----

confess Him before God and man that He is savior and Lord of your life, believe that He died on the cross and rose again from the grave and to know without a doubt that the only way to the Father God is thru Jesus Christ our Lord?

Is that the way your church believes to receive salvation?
And that that is the only way?

That Jesus saves you just for the asking, trusting, believing upon Him, and accepting Him into your heart and you know without a DOUBT that you will spend eterntiy with Him in Heaven?

I just thought maybe I didn't understand you correctly.

Posted by: ajholloway

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rachel R

Dear Austin,

That is a quote from the book that you are adding to the Bible.

Of course, they are going to say it is okay to add us to the Bible.

What I am asking is where in the Word of God does it say that it is okay to read and examine another gospel?

I wouldn't risk it.

Revelation 22.

18. "Here is my warning for everyone who hears the prophecies in this book:
If you add anything to them, God will make you suffer all the terrible troubles written in this book.

19. If you take anything away from these prophecies, God will not let you have a part in the life-giving tree and in the holy city described in this book.

Rachel R

Of course, I forgot to make the statement here that if a person doesn't believe in the BoM, then they generally will not believe the lines I quoted above from it.

The BoM does not add to the Bible, but stands as "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" (see title page). We use them both for teaching/learning/personal study. We don't claim the BoM as another Gospel, but as an additional witness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. As for reading/examining other religious works outside the Bible, I personally don't see the harm, providing a person prays first to be able to discern truth from error. Our family has a bookshelf of religious works, some by LDS authors, some by Christian/non-LDS authors, some of dubious question (Nag Hammadi, etc). I don't have a copy of the Koran, but would like to read it to see what others believe, etc. Our church encourages us to, "seek learning even by study and also by faith."

We read the lines above from Revelation as pertaining to the book of Revelation only, as the Bible as we know it was not published until some time after John's Revelation was received. I have heard others say that other New Testament books were not written until after Revelation, but I don't have a handy reference as to what year the various books were written, so I cannot verify.

Posted by: ajholloway

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Logan

-does your church, faith and belief believe that to be born again,

you have to ask Jesus, the son of God, into your heart to cleanse you, forgive you of all your sins, repent of those sins and totally allow Him to turn your life around, , to accept Him as Lord and Savior of your life, and that His Holy spirit then dwells and lives within you, and that He can and will speak to you and your heart and you can have fellowship with Him every day? And you will----

confess Him before God and man that He is savior and Lord of your life, believe that He died on the cross and rose again from the grave and to know without a doubt that the only way to the Father God is thru Jesus Christ our Lord?

Is that the way your church believes to receive salvation?
And that that is the only way?

That Jesus saves you just for the asking, trusting, believing upon Him, and accepting Him into your heart and you know without a DOUBT that you will spend eterntiy with Him in Heaven?

Yes! on all of the above, except one point: We believe that part of this whole process that you have described, and what we would call conversion, it the necessity of Baptism. We believe that the description of being born again that Jesus gave to Nicodemus includes the ordinance of baptism. See John 3:3-5. Some have taken Romans 10:13 to mean that all is required of salvation is a prayer. I think that a person who, in sincerity, calls to the Lord for remission of sins with a desire to follow Him with all their heart, will by natural course of action accept baptism as an essential ordinance, and will accept Christlike living for the rest of their lives. Or else a person may say a "save me" prayer with the expectation of salvation, and do nothing to follow Christ, but continue living a worldly life. There is a worthy discussion in the BoM about why baptism is necessary, and how following Christ means doing the things He did, including baptism. I won't quote the whole thing here, but if any want to check it out, then here is a link:

******************link deleted by akabezalel************
(ok, the link won't come through completely, but the *** above should be dot org)

Also, one of our articles of faith states:

"We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Posted by: sonrise

I have read with interest the dialogue, what is the difference between the two views of mormon vs. penticostal/evangelical.

Since you have quoted verses from the Book of Mormon, I have seen some contradictions.

2 Nephi 31:17, " Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and Redeemer should do; for, this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentenance and "baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 29:9 ".....for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man..."

In the first scrpiture I take issue with "then remisson of your sins..."

According to scripture my sins were remitted 2000 yrs. ago at the cross and when I acknowledged Christ and received Him---instantly my sins were gone for I was translated from one economy into a much better one and my spiritual DNA was instantly changed.

The second verse is; states "my work is not yet finished" yet my scriptures tell me the work by the Father was finished before the foundation of the world. Christ, on the cross spoke, " It is finished".

All throughout the Old testament we have pictures of the finished work. When Moses came down from the mountain, He had seen the finished work in heaven. The Temple of Moses is a (shadow) picture of the Finished work. And when we step into salvation the temple flips and we step into the finished work. As we come to maturity in Christ we have ceased ffrom our own work and what has already be done in the heavenly realm is now manifested in the earth thru His sons (& daughters).

The book of Revelation is the unveiling of Christ. We see Him From Gen. to the end. All mystery is unlocked and there for those who seek. NOTHING NEED BE ADDED OR TAKEN AWAY for we see the fullness of His glory in the one book.

I do have two questions; why does the mormon religion hold baptisms for the those who have already died, And what is the purpose of having marriages sealed in heaven?

Posted by: ajholloway

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonrise

I have read with interest the dialogue, what is the difference between the two views of mormon vs. penticostal/evangelical.

A good book on this is How Wide the Divide - A Mormon and an Evangelical in Converstaion. The book covers a handful of differences, but there are probably more.

The basic LDS belief is that the church that Christ originally set up fell away after centuries of persecution and apostasy, and that the church was restored through God calling a prophet in the "Latter Days" and giving him authority, and laying again the foundation of the Church of Jesus Christ. Thus, we are a restorationist church.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonrise

Since you have quoted verses from the Book of Mormon, I have seen some contradictions.

2 Nephi 31:17, " Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and Redeemer should do; for, this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentenance and "baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 29:9 ".....for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man..."

In the first scrpiture I take issue with "then remisson of your sins..."

According to scripture my sins were remitted 2000 yrs. ago at the cross and when I acknowledged Christ and received Him---instantly my sins were gone for I was translated from one economy into a much better one and my spiritual DNA was instantly changed.

The second verse is; states "my work is not yet finished" yet my scriptures tell me the work by the Father was finished before the foundation of the world. Christ, on the cross spoke, " It is finished".

All throughout the Old testament we have pictures of the finished work. When Moses came down from the mountain, He had seen the finished work in heaven. The Temple of Moses is a (shadow) picture of the Finished work. And when we step into salvation the temple flips and we step into the finished work. As we come to maturity in Christ we have ceased ffrom our own work and what has already be done in the heavenly realm is now manifested in the earth thru His sons (& daughters).

The book of Revelation is the unveiling of Christ. We see Him From Gen. to the end. All mystery is unlocked and there for those who seek. NOTHING NEED BE ADDED OR TAKEN AWAY for we see the fullness of His glory in the one book.

As sure as God lives, we believe that Christ suffered the sins of all men in the Atonement. However, we still believe that a person is under the weight of their sins until they have faith in Christ, repent of their sins, and follow Christ through the ordinance of baptism. Then they are forgiven. After baptism, even though a person is now a follower of Christ, they are still not perfect. A believer will continue to make mistakes and sin. In our church, we take the bread and wine (we use water) weekly to renew our covenants made at baptism, and we continue to repent of mistakes we made, with faith in Christ that he will forgive. Your sins and mine were paid for 2000 years ago, but are not remitted until we find faith in Christ.

Christ on the cross spake, "it is finished," which we take as meaning His great Atonement had been completed. We do not believe that God's work is finished, nor ever will be. For God still continues to guide the lives of His children and the course of nations, until His work on this Earth is complete. When this Earth has run it's course, and is glorified, it seems from the verse above that God will continue to work. Personally, I take this to mean that we are not the only planet in creation that is peopled by God's children.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonrise

I do have two questions; why does the mormon religion hold baptisms for the those who have already died, And what is the purpose of having marriages sealed in heaven?

We take the ordinance of baptism as necessary and essential to eventual salvation in God's presence. We also believe that through Joseph Smith, who was called of God to be a prophet, that the authority to act in the name of God to perform baptism and other ordinances was restored after having fallen away anciently. We call this authority the Priesthood. Those who have not had the ordinance of baptism need to have it done. This is the reason the Church is big on genealogy - members of the church search back their ancestors as far back as they can, and provide ordinances for them in one of the Church's temples.

Another ordinance unique to the temples is eternal marriage, or "sealing." We are taught that marriage and family relationships do not end "till death do you part," but that a couple sealed in the temple may continue that most joyful of human relationships into eternity. We also provide the sealing ordinance to our deceased ancestors.

Posted by: MarkSentMe

Elohim the Sinner
By Bill McKeever

"It was fifth LDS President Lorenzo Snow who coined the expression, "As man is God once was, as God is, man may be" (Articles of Faith, pg. 430). If there was ever an area of proof to show that Mormonism and biblical Christianity is incompatible, this phrase would seem to erase all doubt. Mormon leaders have stated that Elohim (God the Father), as a mortal on some distant planet similar to Earth, went through the same struggles as present-day humans in order to obtain his Godhood. In the words of LDS Apostle Orson Hyde, "God our Heavenly Father was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we are, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is" (Journal of Discourses 1:123). Consistency would demand that if the Mormon God was "mortal like we are," he must have had the attributes that we as humans have. This would have to include a sinful nature.

According to page 132 of the 1976 LDS manual entitled "Achieving a Celestial Marriage, "... our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death." It would appear that not only was the Mormon God capable of death, he in fact did die. As LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote, "The Father is a glorified, perfected resurrected, exalted man who worked out his own salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pg. 64). Notice the word "resurrected" and the phrase, "worked out his salvation." Only those who die can be resurrected, and only those who are lost need salvation. Unless McConkie is leading his readers astray, Mormons must admit that their God was a sinner for the Bible teaches that death is the wage of sin (Romans 6:33)."

Posted by: ajholloway

Wow. I'm not sure if there is a question in all that for me? I think it's no secret that the LDS church believes in eternal progression. By their doctrines ye shall ye know them, I guess.

Posted by: MarkSentMe

Quote:

By their doctrines ye shall ye know them, I guess.

Jesus said,"You will know them by their fruits." (Matthew 7:16)

Posted by: ajholloway

I understand that. You were making several points against LDS doctrine. By their fruits ye shall know them, not doctrine.

Posted by: Rachel R

I have a couple of question for the Mormon faithful.

What is with the cross with no 'cross' on it?

Your symbol is a single spire without the 'cross' bar across it.

How does that show allegiance to the Jesus Christ that you are the latter day saints of?

And what is with the bricked up front doors?

So many of your churches have a large, obvious front entrance and the doorway is completely bricked closed.

Some have porches there, and some even have sidewalks leading to the bricked up front door.

Sure seems odd.

Maybe I am missing something...

Rachel R

Posted by: ajholloway

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rachel R

...
Your symbol is a single spire without the 'cross' bar across it.

How does that show allegiance to the Jesus Christ that you are the latter day saints of?
...

Spires are used extensively on our churches and temples, as you probably have seen. The symbology of the spire(s) is to point a persons eyes towards heaven, and therefore their hearts as well.
The church does not use the cross in or on its buildings as we consider this a symbol of the dead Christ, and we believe like you that Christ is alive again. We have been told that the symbol of the church should be the Christ-like behavior of the person.

As for bricked-up front doors, I'm not sure. Most LDS churches that I have seen have obvious front doors that open. It may have to do with the church building in your area where some problem necessitated closing it up, like a structural or safety issue.

Thanks for the question.

Posted by: Rachel R

Nope. These bricked up doors are designed in.

I have seen a LOT of them, since I just returned from a trip to Utah.

No. Those closed up doors MEAN something.

I don't know what they mean, but there is a meaning there.

As for the spire instead of the cross, I can't imagine using any sign but the cross. It is the most important symbol in history.

But that still doesn't freak me out the way those gigantic bricked up doors do.

Rachel R

Posted by: Christian Commando

ajholloway- I have some questions. I pray you others will pardon my intrusion.

How is it, if God's Word declares God has always existed and never not existed, yet you stated earlier a belief that God as a Trinity had to reach a state of perfection or immortality? (One of your earliest posts here on the 1st page).

2- Because the BoM claims Nephi and his family went around in the Middle East speaking the Gospel and sharing God's Word, there is no record of him or family in God's only True Word- (Bible).

3- Particularly knowing it is claimed in the BoM that Nephi's children took wives of the daughters of a popular Old Test charactor, yet this is never mentioned in the Bible?

4- Why is it that the BoM is identical in events of the Bible, even tho they supposedly happen going across the ocean-(not sea), and the BoM claims, in the end, the New Jerusalem will be set down here on the North American Continent, even tho God's Word shows it coming down to earth in it's original Middle Eastern location?

5- How is it the BoM claims the first races of people to move unto the North American Continent were Nephi and his relatives, when there is documented proofs, two diverse indian races originally moved over to and populated both the North and South American Continents?

6- Those two indian races were of Egyptian backrounds, according to artifacts found across both Continents, even tho Nephi and his relatives were clearly supposedly Isreali backround?

7- The worship altars and pyramids on these Continents all show human as well as animal sacrifices. Both the Mayen and Aztec tribes who are documented as the races to move here so early were false god worshippers who sacrificed young children at times.So, explain the pyramids and scrifice altars if your BoM races were supposed to be more civilized than the indian ones.

That should be a good start.

Thank you for your time

Posted by: MarkSentMe

The Freemasons also use "bricked up" doors and windows on their places of worship. Joseph Smith was a Freemason.

"Freemasonry is the world's largest, oldest and most prominent fraternity. Yet, it is a cult nonetheless."

Posted by: Rachel R

Does the Masonic Lodge use the bricked up doors, too?

Maybe those doors are bricked up like the Eastern Gate in Jerusalem.

Nobody gets to go through that gate until Jesus comes back!

Maybe when the scales fall from their eyes they will knock down those doors and Jesus will come in!

Who knows?

Posted by: MarvellousWork

Hi All, ajholloway here. It seems my ajholloway account has been disabled. As I suppose this one will be too, as people try their best to suppress what a Mormon might say, I will make a brief reply to your posts. If you want to ask serious questions, you can probably go to my ajholloway page and click on the link to send me an email. I will be glad to answer any questions.

As for the 'bricked up doors' theory, it is debunked by anyone that takes a look at an LDS chapel. Having seen chapels all around New England, New York, Utah, Washington state, and New Zealand, I have never seen a bricked up door. Send me a picture! Oh, and one picture only of a bricked-up LDS chapel is not proof that they all have this feature. As a sidenote, there is a Masonic lodge in my area, and they don't have a bricked-up door either (don't worry, I'm not a member!)

Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

ajholloway- I have some questions. I pray you others will pardon my intrusion.

How is it, if God's Word declares God has always existed and never not existed, yet you stated earlier a belief that God as a Trinity had to reach a state of perfection or immortality? (One of your earliest posts here on the 1st page).

I must admit that this is a subject that we know little about, i.e. the origin of God. All we know is snippets of sayings from LDS leaders. This is not essential knowledge to our salvation, so I don't think LDS think much about it. It is interesting that in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, stating that people have the opportunity to become exalted and become like God, it is said that, "..then shall they be from all eternity to all eternity." See Doctrine & Covenants section 76. This saying is often referred to God, so I think that because we believe that all of God's children came from Heaven where we all used to live as spirit children of God, and through the salvation of Christ we will return there, it can be said that we will be "from eternity" (where we came from) "to eternity" (where we are going.) This are my personal thoughts, as the Church has little "official" doctrine on the subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

2- Because the BoM claims Nephi and his family went around in the Middle East speaking the Gospel and sharing God's Word, there is no record of him or family in God's only True Word- (Bible).

To suppose that the Bible contains the history of every person who taught righteousness around 600 BC would make a fat Bible indeed! We know at least Jeremiah is contemporary around this time, perhaps others. Besides, Lehi and his family left Jerusalem in such a way that there would be little notice of them going.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

3- Particularly knowing it is claimed in the BoM that Nephi's children took wives of the daughters of a popular Old Test charactor, yet this is never mentioned in the Bible?

There is no evidence to support an idea that the Ishmael spoken of in the Book of Mormon is the same Ishmael spoken of in the Old Testament. The Ishmael of OT times was a leader who rose up after the Babylonian captivity (after about 587 BC). The Ishmael spoken of in the BofM went with Lehi and his company to the Americas about 600 BC. Clearly not the same person. A Bible search for Ishmael shows no others by that name before Jeremiah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

4- Why is it that the BoM is identical in events of the Bible, even tho they supposedly happen going across the ocean-(not sea), and the BoM claims, in the end, the New Jerusalem will be set down here on the North American Continent, even tho God's Word shows it coming down to earth in it's original Middle Eastern location?

I don't see any parallel events between the BofM and the Bible. It is true that when Jesus visited the BofM inhabitants about 34 AD he preached a sermon similar to the Sermon on the Mount, but outside of this similar sermon, and some scriptural quotations, there are no parallel events per se.

As for the location of the New Jerusalem, I think that this is unclear in the Bible. Isaiah, however stated that "out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." (See Isaiah ch 2). We belive that they are separate places, as evidenced in this scripture, and that Zion is the New Jerusalem. The BofM states that the New Jerusalem will be in the Americas, and a revelation was given to Joseph Smith pinpointing the exact location.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

5- How is it the BoM claims the first races of people to move unto the North American Continent were Nephi and his relatives, when there is documented proofs, two diverse indian races originally moved over to and populated both the North and South American Continents?

The BofM talks about two races inhabiting the land. Nephi and company as you stated were one race, and arrived probably between 600 BC and 587 BC. The Jaredites in the BofM were a race that came to the land much earlier -- about the time of the Tower of Babel (about 2300 BC). Also note that the common belief is that Native Americans populated the continents by crossing a land bridge about 10,000-15,000 years ago; this theory must be refuted by any person claiming belief in the Bible which places Earth's age at about 6000 years, and by any student of American archaeology which shows no civilization before about 2300 BC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

6- Those two indian races were of Egyptian backrounds, according to artifacts found across both Continents, even tho Nephi and his relatives were clearly supposedly Isreali backround?

I agree that artifacts found in N and S America show some Egyptian origin. Nephi knew Egyptian and was undoubtedly aquainted with their customs, as a person can see by reading the Book of Mormon. The language that the BofM was written in was even an altered form of Egyptian. Mormon and Moroni called it 'Reformed Egyptian.' That an Israelite should be aquainted with Egyptian writing styles and customs should not come as a surprise. Several chapters of Isaiah strongly condemn Israel and Judah for making alliances with Egypt. This was about 720 BC, over a hundred years before the Babylonian captivity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

7- The worship altars and pyramids on these Continents all show human as well as animal sacrifices. Both the Mayen and Aztec tribes who are documented as the races to move here so early were false god worshippers who sacrificed young children at times.So, explain the pyramids and scrifice altars if your BoM races were supposed to be more civilized than the indian ones.

A read of the BofM will show that the people as a whole turned from the truth they had learned from Jesus Christ and began wars among themselves. By about 450 AD there were none that were rightous among them. The last chapters of the book of Moroni in the BofM show instances of human sacrifices among those who had turned altogether from the truth.

These are all great questions. I hope that I can be able to answer more in the future.

Posted by: akabezalel

Free Masons use the bricked up doors to keep their meetings secret.

They used to tile up the doors and set guards on them after all the members were inside. No one goes in and no one goes out, if they tried either they were killed.

Today they still have an office called "Tiler" and other guards, their jobs are symbolic but hark back to when they actually killed people before breaking the sealed room.

FM's and Mormons also have death oaths for the members still and they and the Mormons have used these death oaths to kill people they see as 'betrayers'. The Mormons are known to have killed an entire wagon train of people back in the 1800s and tried to blame the deaths on the natives of the area, I will go see if I can find a link for that.

Posted by: Christian Commando

Interesting info you gave MarvellousWorks. Might I suggest tho, you get together with the leader from outside my State who gave a "series seminar" at thier church in a neighboring town about 15 years ago, from which I spent many evenings after the meetings discussing most if not all the same subjects covered here, who gave me the info I shared here?

They came as a major representative of the religion to help others in thier religion gain more understanding of this- "Another Test. of Jesus Christ" -(Book of Mormon).

Besides, knowing that there have been about 4 different copies of Joseph Smith's "Testimony", all differing quite a bit from each other by discrepancies found, proves there is a problem with believing in this religion.

By the way, one other interesting notation I'd like to make as well. Between the LDS people here where I live now from past years, to those where I'd lived for the past 6 years, I found it interesting they argued with me that they were not Mormon's.

So... question- How can they say they are not, when they carry, believe in and practice, what is found in- "The Book of Mormon"?

People in Christian Churches attending regular, believe in doctrinal teachings and more, consider themselves say- Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Assemblies of God, etc. But LDS people here will not say they are Mormons. Why? Even the headquarters Church for the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a Mormon Church out in Utah.

Thank you for your time.

In addition to Akebezalel's post, let me add also that freemason's, like the "aluminati" secret group, also believe in a "one world government" both are striving to achieve, besides being a cult, as both believe in false gods as well as people can become them too.

Freemason's are also a very secretive group. Those involved with meetings and operations of the group are not to speak of anything about the "religion" to outsiders.

I was approached 5 years ago by registered letter from another secretive group who considered me a very high prospect for thier group. I kept the letter for reference, but not handy now. I cannot remember it's name, but they told me not to mention anything of thier contact with me to anyone outside thier group. I rejected thier offer with an interesting point by point questioning letter. No responce back.

What they were based from in beliefs was, from a select group of rich ancient Babylonians who achieved thier wealth and popularity thru the use of beliefs in certain false gods and practices that used supernatural-(demonic) connections.

Thank you-

Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:

Originally Posted by akabezalel

...
FM's and Mormons also have death oaths for the members still and they and the Mormons have used these death oaths to kill people they see as 'betrayers'. The Mormons are known to have killed an entire wagon train of people back in the 1800s and tried to blame the deaths on the natives of the area, I will go see if I can find a link for that.

1. A look at the FM rituals will show that they are not intended to kill the revealer of their secrets, but to imply that the participant will keep those secrets, even under threat of death in various ways. These oaths were removed from the LDS Temple ceremony in the early 1990s, but implied the same thing.
2. Wikipedia has a great article on what you are referring to. The Mountain Meadows Massacre happened in 1857. The Wikipedia article is entirely unbiased on this, and presents a well-researched approach. Bottom line is that although there was an LDS guy involved (and a not very faithful one at that), there is no evidence that the Church sanctioned the actions. And, no the people killed were not people that supposedly revealed "secrets" about the Church or its practices.

Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Interesting info you gave MarvellousWorks. Might I suggest tho, you get together with the leader from outside my State who gave a "series seminar" at thier church in a neighboring town about 15 years ago, from which I spent many evenings after the meetings discussing most if not all the same subjects covered here, who gave me the info I shared here?

The points you gave above, especially regarding the Book of Mormon, I have answered with a simple timeline. It is true that someone named Ishmael is talked about in the BofM, and that a different person from a later time is talked about in Jeremiah, etc. These are a matter of written fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

...
Besides, knowing that there have been about 4 different copies of Joseph Smith's "Testimony", all differing quite a bit from each other by discrepancies found, proves there is a problem with believing in this religion.

There were at least 4 written copies of the account of Joseph Smith's vision, and more were related second-hand. There are web sites that show all known versions in a grid, word by word, so that people can see any differences. A good site is boap dot org, it lists them all out. I don't see and major differences. Please let me know of any if you find some.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

By the way, one other interesting notation I'd like to make as well. Between the LDS people here where I live now from past years, to those where I'd lived for the past 6 years, I found it interesting they argued with me that they were not Mormon's.

So... question- How can they say they are not, when they carry, believe in and practice, what is found in- "The Book of Mormon"?

The Church has been careful to use the full name of the church, and not "the Mormon Church," which is incorrect. Members of the Church are councelled not to call themselves "Mormons," but to call themselves Latter-day Saints, or members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Perpetuation of the nickname has been an unfortunate side-effect since the Church was organized in 1830. Most LDS people don't use the nickname themselves, or as applying to themselves, but if you ask them, "Are you a Mormon?" they probably know what you are talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

People in Christian Churches attending regular, believe in doctrinal teachings and more, consider themselves say- Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Assemblies of God, etc. But LDS people here will not say they are Mormons. Why? Even the headquarters Church for the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a Mormon Church out in Utah.

Ok, I will say it, "I am a Latter-day Saint." There.

Thanks for the questions.

Posted by: Christian Commando

MarvellousWorks-

First of all, the concensis of the LDS Elders I've talked to here as well, concure that the "Ishmael" talked about as the father of Lehi's daughters is the Ishmael mentioned in God's Word. Why? They told me, for reason of supposed ties to main charactors of God's Word for authentication purposes of the BoM.

Secondly- You can read parts of the vision Joseph Smith had, in the Testimony of his in the BoM. I re-read much of that book today already. Thus, it is both Testimony and vision that show discrepancies severe enough that it cannot be distinguished which would be the most believable.

Besides the fact, those 4 copies of his testimony-vision, show where in some, differing charactors were seen in others they were not, not to mention particular instructions are in some, while not in others, etc.

How is it, to be truely honest, anyone can claim the LDS are not Mormons, when the book they follow and believe in has that title? Sure, in smaller letters it claims to be another Test. of Jesus Christ, but in the biggest ones, it says- "The Book of Mormon".

Now, you also stated the BoM does not have identical events to God's only True Word in it. Then explain these examples-

Moses is led by God leading the Isrealites, by a pillar of fire. The BoM also shows Lehi being led by a pillar of light called- "diadem" or such.

Moses and the Isrealites were led to the River Jordan to cross it, where Lehi was supposedly led by God to cross over the ocean to North America.

As stated before, the New Jerusalem in God's only true Word declares He will set it down in the original place it sat on the old earth- Middle East. The BoM describes again, I repeat, the New Jerusalem will be placed on the North American Continent.

Now, if you are so inclined to ask BoM script. references, ask away, I have it handy right here and re-checked them out again as well, plus many other examples and references.

By the way, admitting you are an LDS follower is not admitting the truth behind that religion. That any member of it is a Mormon. Why? Same reason a person who believes and follows the Muslim religion cannot claim they are not a Muslim. They are for that reason even if don't want to be connected with the destructive acts that religion teaches followers to do.

Thank you for your time.

Posted by: Rachel R

As for the 'bricked up doors' theory, it is debunked by anyone that takes a look at an LDS chapel. Having seen chapels all around New England, New York, Utah, Washington state, and New Zealand, I have never seen a bricked up door. Send me a picture! Oh, and one picture only of a bricked-up LDS chapel is not proof that they all have this feature. As a sidenote, there is a Masonic lodge in my area, and they don't have a bricked-up door either (don't worry, I'm not a member!)

I guess I have seen so many, I just thought they were everywhere. I have seen them in California, Nevada and Utah.

As a matter of fact, I have not seen one here that does not have the bricked up door. And since we started noticing it, we drive out of our way when we see one to see if the front entry is built that way.

I'll get my husband to take a couple of shots of the local one's and I will post them.

I wonder why ours would be this way and the East coast one's would have front doors that open? Strange...

Rachel R

Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

MarvellousWorks-

First of all, the concensis of the LDS Elders I've talked to here as well, concure that the "Ishmael" talked about as the father of Lehi's daughters is the Ishmael mentioned in God's Word. Why? They told me, for reason of supposed ties to main charactors of God's Word for authentication purposes of the BoM.

I would hope an LDS missionary knows his stuff well enough to try to get people to gain a personal witness from God that the things they are teaching are true, and not try to "prove" a doctrine by a scripture chase. (In this case, scriptures that don't line up time wise.) The most important thing a person can do regarding the BofM is to ask God if it is true. An answer from God to a sincere prayer is more "proof" of the reality of the BofM, and does more to motivate people to become members of the Church, than anything else. Missionaries are taught to teach the doctrine we believe, not try to prove it. Proving is left to the individual. I think this is the key to the success of the LDS missionary effort. Remember James 1:5 that a person can ask God if they lack wisdom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Secondly- You can read parts of the vision Joseph Smith had, in the Testimony of his in the BoM. I re-read much of that book today already. Thus, it is both Testimony and vision that show discrepancies severe enough that it cannot be distinguished which would be the most believable.

Besides the fact, those 4 copies of his testimony-vision, show where in some, differing charactors were seen in others they were not, not to mention particular instructions are in some, while not in others, etc.

Read the accounts in the web site I mentioned before. Judge for yourself. I don't see any significant differences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

How is it, to be truely honest, anyone can claim the LDS are not Mormons, when the book they follow and believe in has that title? Sure, in smaller letters it claims to be another Test. of Jesus Christ, but in the biggest ones, it says- "The Book of Mormon".

Mormon was the name of a primary prophet who wrote in the Book by his name. It is no more appropriate to call a Latter-day Saint a "Mormon" as it is to call a Jew an "Isaiah" or a Christian a "Paul." The nickname "Mormons" was made early in the history of the LDS Church by those who were opposed to it, and the nickname stuck, even among the LDS themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Now, you also stated the BoM does not have identical events to God's only True Word in it. Then explain these examples-

Moses is led by God leading the Isrealites, by a pillar of fire. The BoM also shows Lehi being led by a pillar of light called- "diadem" or such.

In Lehi's original vision he sees a pillar fire, but no other pillar of fire or light is mentioned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Moses and the Isrealites were led to the River Jordan to cross it, where Lehi was supposedly led by God to cross over the ocean to North America.

Crossing a river and crossing an ocean hardly seem like identical events to me.
The BofM tells of Lehi's crew following the Jordan to the Red Sea. There is no story of them crossing the Jordan or any other river, so they probably sent south of the Red Sea, and across the Arabian Peninsula to the Indian Ocean. This seems to be the case based on the directions that Nephi gives as part of the narrative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

As stated before, the New Jerusalem in God's only true Word declares He will set it down in the original place it sat on the old earth- Middle East. The BoM describes again, I repeat, the New Jerusalem will be placed on the North American Continent.

The only references to 'New Jerusalem' I see are in Rev chapters 3 and 21. both state a New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven. Please provide some scriptural references.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Now, if you are so inclined to ask BoM script. references, ask away, I have it handy right here and re-checked them out again as well, plus many other examples and references.

Joseph Smith's account of his first vision is not found in the BofM, but can be found in the Pearl of Great Price under Joseph Smith-History", or in the 6-volume history of the Church, or the accounts online I listed.
Lehi's original vision, including pillar fire: 1 Nephi chap 1.
Lehi takes his family down to the Red Sea, and to the ocean: 1 Nephi chap 2, 16, 17, 18.

Posted by: Christian Commando

MarvellousWorks-

Very interesting read once again. But, how do we get around Scriptures God gives in His Word telling us, His Word only, proves and reproves Itself, and is profitable for proving and reproving other doctrines?

Or the fact God declares of the "Bible", His only True Word, that there were alot of other things Christ did, but these things which are written in the Bible are written that others might believe.

But the clincher now too- God declares that when this Book- "Bible" was finished, that was it, it was finished and there are no others that are equal to it.

So then, with that, how can anyone say, any other doctrine is of equal authority to God's Word, when It is It's own authority, because It is the inspired Words of the Holy Spirit moved people He spoke thru?

Thank you for your time-

Posted by: JeriRose12

OK, so you say an angel gave the words of the Book of Mormom to Jospeh Smith.

I say, consider this scripture:

8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! (Galations 1:8)

Consider this scripture, too:

And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. (2 Corinthians 11:14)

The Gospel of the Book of Mormom is a different Gospel than the one in the Bible. The Bible does not say that Satan and Jesus were brothers. The Bible says the devil (Lucipher) was a high level angel....the worhsip leader in heaven. Jesus is clearly NOT an angel! Angels are created beings. (Colassians 1:16 & Hebrews 1:5). But Jesus was IN THE BEGINNING with God....In the beginning was The Word and The Word was God. (John 1:1). It goes on to say in vs. 14: "--and The Word became flesh and dwelt among us." Jesus is The Word, so Jesus IS God. The devil rebelled AGAINST God, by saying he would make himself as God or The Most High (Isaiah 14:12 - 14).

That is just ONE major difference. So for you to say you believe the same as us, is wrong. For you do not. Jesus and the devil ARE NOT and NEVER WERE brothers. There is no scriptural support of this. So you can not put the Book of Mormom next to the Bible, insinuating they are just slightly different tellings of the same things. You strike at the very heart of the Gospel as explained in the Bible -- that Jesus is 100% God -- when you suggest he is of the same stuff or substance as Satan. Anyone less than God would not have had a perfect blood line, therefore His blood would be useless in washing away and forgiving and covering our sin.

The devil rebelled. Jesus said, "Nevertheless, not My will but Yours be done," to paraphrase. How can you believe a teaching that Jesus and the devil were ever brothers?

~JeriRose~

Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

MarvellousWorks-

Very interesting read once again. But, how do we get around Scriptures God gives in His Word telling us, His Word only, proves and reproves Itself, and is profitable for proving and reproving other doctrines?

We simply believe that the Book of Mormon is scripture like the Bible is, and apply all these attributes to it as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Or the fact God declares of the "Bible", His only True Word, that there were alot of other things Christ did, but these things which are written in the Bible are written that others might believe.

We believe this also. Some of the other things Christ did was to visit the people in the Americas after His resurrection and ascension. See 3 Nephi capter 11 onward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

But the clincher now too- God declares that when this Book- "Bible" was finished, that was it, it was finished and there are no others that are equal to it.

I see no place in the Bible where it declares itself complete and finished. Suppose that there was unearthed tomorrow a previously unknown writing of Peter or another NT writer (and it was proven that it was actually their writing). Would you reject it because some 6th century canonization comittee did not have it at the time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

So then, with that, how can anyone say, any other doctrine is of equal authority to God's Word, when It is It's own authority, because It is the inspired Words of the Holy Spirit moved people He spoke thru?

Thank you for your time-

Simply stated, if the Book of Mormon (or any other writing) is truly God's word, then it has equal authority with God's word in the Bible. In the case of the Book of Mormon, we believe this to be true, and invite others to read it and ask God if it is true. I promise you God will answer this prayer of the sincere seeker.

Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeriRose12

OK, so you say an angel gave the words of the Book of Mormom to Jospeh Smith.

I say, consider this scripture:

8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! (Galations 1:8)

We believe that the Gospel as taught in the BofM is the same Gospel taught by the Savior and the NT writers. Just because it was revealed by an angel does not necessarily qualify it for this scripture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeriRose12

Consider this scripture, too:

And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. (2 Corinthians 11:14)

True, thus the importance for a person to pray and ask God if the Book of Mormon is true. God will not lie to the sincere seeker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeriRose12

The Gospel of the Book of Mormom is a different Gospel than the one in the Bible. The Bible does not say that Satan and Jesus were brothers. The Bible says the devil (Lucipher) was a high level angel....the worhsip leader in heaven. Jesus is clearly NOT an angel! Angels are created beings. (Colassians 1:16 & Hebrews 1:5). But Jesus was IN THE BEGINNING with God....In the beginning was The Word and The Word was God. (John 1:1). It goes on to say in vs. 14: "--and The Word became flesh and dwelt among us." Jesus is The Word, so Jesus IS God. The devil rebelled AGAINST God, by saying he would make himself as God or The Most High (Isaiah 14:12 - 14).

The Book of Mormon does not state the relationship between Satan and Jesus, except to quote Isaiah 14 that you have quoted here, and to also state the Satan was in a position of authority before God before his rebellion.
Neither do the scriptures you mentioned in Colossians and Hebrews state that angels are created beings.
We believe that God and Jesus are separate beings. We believe that God "created" all beings. We don't know details of that process, except that spirit or intelligence was not created or made, but was apparently organized by God into beings long before the creation of the Earth. Thus we all existed before the Earth was created.
We believe that Jesus is God; he is just not the same person as God the Father.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeriRose12

That is just ONE major difference. So for you to say you believe the same as us, is wrong. For you do not. Jesus and the devil ARE NOT and NEVER WERE brothers. There is no scriptural support of this.

I hope I, or other members of the LDS church, do not come across as saying we believe the same thing you do. There are clearly some significant doctrinal differences. The LDS church is not, "just another Christian Church," but a restoration of the New Testament Gospel.

Posted by: MarkSentMe

Quote:

Suppose that there was unearthed tomorrow a previously unknown writing of Peter or another NT writer (and it was proven that it was actually their writing). Would you reject it because some 6th century canonization comittee did not have it at the time?

An unearthed gospel dating back 2000+ years is different from a text written by someone in the 1800s who was disgruntled with the established Christian denominations.
Recently they unearthed the Gospel of Judas. It is old enough to be from biblical times according to carbon-14 dating. The text is historically correct and is in line with actual events which are also documented in the Bible and New Testament.
Do I believe it? It's convincing, but I believe more evidence is needed. If it lines up with what other gospels say, then I believe I can accept it. But if it differs, then it has to be rejected.
The betrayal and suffering of Jesus is foretold in the Old Testament.(Isaiah 53) The birth of Jesus is foretold in the Old Testament. (Isaiah 9:6-7)
The visitation of the Americas by Jesus is nowhere in either the Old or New Testament.
Do I believe Joseph Smith believes he was visited from an angel? Yes. I also believe that the people believe they were visited by the Virgin Mary in Medjugorje.

Quote:

I see no place in the Bible where it declares itself complete and finished.

See Revelation 22:18

To believe that the Bible is somehow incomplete or not able to stand on its own without the help of "another testament" or other publications is to say that God is not perfect. God's Word is infallible and complete. Christians believe this. Christians accepts the Bible at it full face value. Skeptics like Joseph Smith, Mary Eddy, L. Ron Hubbard, Charles Tase Russell believe that they can create their own religions by claiming the corruption of the church, raising doubt, and writing their own bibles. They are false prophets.

Posted by: Christian Commando

Very good MarkSentMe- To add to that, MarvellousWorks, there is a Scripture in an Old Test Book towards the end of the Old Test that speaks of the same reference of changing the writings or meanings of God's Word bringing trouble to those who do it. I haven't had the time to look it up tho.

Point is, as MarkSentMe states, any other writings claimed to be of God, must show itself inline with God's Word. Besides that, I just recalled another false teaching from the BoM.

I recall on thier way across the ocean, a storm came up. Where Jesus Christ had "stilled the waters" in God's Word, supposedly Lehi did it in the BoM. I suggest coming over to the Truth of God from His one and only True Word, the Bible and leave that false religion behind.

There are just too many discrepancies between the two to even think of accepting the BoM as anything authentic or equal in authority to God or His only True Word, the Bible.

God Bless!!

Posted by: MarvellousWork

Thanks for the comments. We believe that the scriptures in Revelation, and the corresponding one in Deuteronomy, are valid for those books of scripture only. i.e. The Rev. quote applies to the Book of Revelation, as some other books in the NT were not written yet. We don't believe these apply to the Bible as a whole, or else you would have to discard everything after Deuteronomy.

The problem you have with just the Bible is that it genders various interpretations. Jehovah's witnesses, Catholics, Protestants, Latter-day Saints, Evangelicals all derive many teachings from the Bible, and these all vary across a wide spectrum of teachings. This is not to say that God is not perfect, just that human interpretations vary and can be wrong. Even the KKK wrestle their sick teachings from the Bible (or at least claim to.) We believe in one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, and honestly I don't see this among all the groups who claim to believe the Bible. This is the problem Joseph Smith had, in that the various denominations interpreted passages from the Bible so differently, so as to destroy all confidence in settling religions questions by using only the Bible. Hence, he asked of God. The BofM, we believe, was revealed by God to restore some true points of doctrine that the Bible is unclear on, and to remove religious contention among those who believe it.

We don't believe that Joseph Smith started the church becuase of his dissapointment with current religions, but that he was called of God to do so. Nor do we believe that he or his associates wrote the BofM, but that it is an ancient record of God's dealings with a branch of His people.

We do believe that the BofM is in line with Biblical teachings. We don't believe that many current Christian teachings that rely on Nicene and other creeds to establish what they believe are in line with the Bible. Like I said before, we believe in the same Gospel of the NT, but not in the current religious systems, which I believe base core teachings on the Nicene or other creeds.

I would say that Latter-day Saints regard the Bible as most of you do: as a priceless treasure. We just don't believe that it is the only collection of inspired writings that God has ever caused to be published to mankind.

The incident in the BofM of the calming of the sea is in 1 Nephi 18. In the story, Nephi is bound while his brothers do some serious partying. A storm arises which eventually threatens to sink the ship. When the brothers repent and decide to untie Nephi, he prays and the storm ceases. I'm not sure why you would call this a false teaching because it has a similarity to Jesus calming the sea.

Posted by: Christian Commando

MarvellousWork-

Very interesting, but very inaccurate as well. Why?

Point 1- Apparently you haven't done your research too thoroly. The Apostle John was the longest living of all the Apostles according to both references in secular and Christian historical documentations.

Secondly- It has been documented by reference, John lived to around 80-88 A.D. during his exile on the Isle of Patmos.

Third- You'll find historical references as well as in Revelation, John wrote Revelation during his exile on Patmos.

Fourth- This is quite a few years after, all of the other Books of the New Test were written, seeing as how Jesus christ's ministry lasted on 3 years, coming at the latest to around 35-37 A.D., leaving the next 30-35 years for the other books to be written before revelation was by John.

As for the Christian religions having all different beliefs of God's Word, true. Except for the foundational beliefs that seperate them from Jehovah witnesses, Mormons, Krishna, Christian Science and all other religions that believe in some level or form, people can reach or become gods or godhood some how.

Christian religions are divided in beliefs, for the purpose of keeping each one seperate from another. sure, this is not of god. Religion is not of God. But, I have also heard reports in the last few years, how the doctrinal beliefs of Mormonism has also gone thru thier phases of changing beliefs. So, they are not exempt from being confusing.

Now, you state the BoM clarifies some Truths of God, the Bible is unclear on? Where? In truth, the BoM clearly shows this illiterate Joseph Smith sat down with pen and paper and God's Word, and wrote an incredible replica-(false imitation) of God's Word,
by having nearly all the same events happen here on North America, and thru other people.Thats one of the best, but most apparent forgeries I've ever had the privaledge to read.

I suggest here too, you research past historians, secular and Christian to the time of Joseph Smith and start of mormonism. You'll find it documented it was J.S. primarily, backed by several others who believed the lie, to get him started.

Historically speaking tho, according to Mormon's own admission, it was someone named- "Moroni" who originally wrote these supposed scriptures, then an apparition appeared to J.S. later, believed an angel of God, to get the then metal plates and the breastplate with the old Test "Seer stones- Urim and Thumim", to use in translating the writings.

There is another clear problem. If J.S. was supposedly a True Chirstian, saved and reborn, why would God guide him to need these stones to translate the writings, when he had the Holy Spirit dwelling inside him to do this for him? (Particularly knowing God did away with "seers" and using those stones at the start of the New Test. Covenant.) Clearly it was not God guiding him to go against God to do that.

I can only say this, to go thru the original Nicene "Creed" for Christianity, it clearly goes totally inline with God's Word in setting up clear God Word based beliefs, for use in seperating Christian from Cult religions.

Again, this is where you contradict God's Word, when God declares when the Bible was finished, that was it, there were no more.

Ok then, tell me this, because in the last century or more, considerable archeological and ancient literary finds have proven, no question the authenticity of the Old Test and references to charactors and teachings of the New Test, why are there not any such "finds" supporting the BoM if supposedly really of God? Surely, like His one and only True Word, the Bible, if the BoM were truely of God, wouldn't He have this eventually supported the same way?

As for the "calming of the sea" event, it's like the BoM is trying to put specific people on an equal level with Jesus Christ, thru doing the same identical miracles Jesus did, and this happened before Christ had even appaeared on earth.

By the way, another interesting point. God only promised His "first chosen"- the land of canan. Where in God's Word does it show there was other land(s) God had promised to give them? No where.

thank you for your time-

Posted by: Christian Commando

If I may, I'd like to correct myself. In the last post, I'd mentioned that the Early Church was using the Apostle's writings at the latter 1/2 of the first century.

I was inaccurate, Rather, the collecting and preserving of them, including Timothy's writngs, started shortly after the start of the 2nd centry A.D., after the letters written by the Apostles to the various churches had been circulated and come back into the hands of the later Christian Leaders who were mostly considered as "2nd elected" Leaders from the Apostles.

They did not end up with all of them right away. It took time for those later Leaders to come across them in thier travels to the original churches started and also in other areas close to where originally sent.

Thus, before the end of the 2nd century A.D., the "canon of Scripture" for the New Test, tho in soft form- (made up of the Apostles Letters and John's Revelation writing), was considered as the first "New Test canon".

Sorry about the inaccuracy.

Posted by: JeriRose12

I know that you would probably disagree with the authencity of my sources for the info that the Mormoms teach Jesus and the devil were brothers. So, for now, I will pose a couple other questions:

What has Jesus done for you?

What does Jesus mean to you?

I am not looking for what He has done you or means to you DOCTRINALLY. Please, in your own words, share what your relationship with Jesus is like.

~JeriRose~
Finding HIM in 2006 (The Year Of The Double Portion!)

Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

MarvellousWork-

Very interesting, but very inaccurate as well. Why?

Point 1- Apparently you haven't done your research too thoroly. The Apostle John was the longest living of all the Apostles according to both references in secular and Christian historical documentations.

Secondly- It has been documented by reference, John lived to around 80-88 A.D. during his exile on the Isle of Patmos.

Third- You'll find historical references as well as in Revelation, John wrote Revelation during his exile on Patmos.

Fourth- This is quite a few years after, all of the other Books of the New Test were written, seeing as how Jesus christ's ministry lasted on 3 years, coming at the latest to around 35-37 A.D., leaving the next 30-35 years for the other books to be written before revelation was by John.

Ok, the source I had was by LDS scholars, saying the order of John's writings were: 1) Revelation 2) Epistles 3) St. John. Since these are LDS sources, I can discount them for the moment for the sake of our conversation.
Other (non-LDS) sources list dates for Revelation as from 65 to 90AD, and the same for St. John, so there seems to be no consensus.
Putting aside dates, it seems clear to me from the sripture that it applies to "the words of the prophesy of this book." We believe this applies to the book of Revelation only.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

As for the Christian religions having all different beliefs of God's Word, true. Except for the foundational beliefs that seperate them from Jehovah witnesses, Mormons, Krishna, Christian Science and all other religions that believe in some level or form, people can reach or become gods or godhood some how.

I know of no other modern religions that believe in the "diefication of man," maybe ancient Egyptian traditions and perhaps some Islamic factions. I don't think that the others listed here have that belief. Nor is exlusion of this doctrine a proof that a religious group is "Christian." As I see it, the foundational belief that separates the LDS Church from others is divine authority by direct revelation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Christian religions are divided in beliefs, for the purpose of keeping each one seperate from another. sure, this is not of god. Religion is not of God. But, I have also heard reports in the last few years, how the doctrinal beliefs of Mormonism has also gone thru thier phases of changing beliefs. So, they are not exempt from being confusing.

Having studied the history of the LDS Church, I don't see any changes in foundational doctrines since about 1845. In 1845 as I see it, the essential doctrines were all in place as a foundation for the Church, including sriptural traditions and a fullnes of Church ordinances.
I can talk about any examples you have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Now, you state the BoM clarifies some Truths of God, the Bible is unclear on? Where?

The Book of Mormon is the clearest scriptural record on the reality and univeral nature of the Atonement of Christ. It explains in detail the concepts of eternal law and punishment, the balance of mercy and justice, the necessity of free agency, the necessity of the fall and consequences, the universal nature of Christ's resurrection for all men, the necessity of baptism (and associated covenants), the reality of (and necessity of) personal revelation, the rejection of child baptism, and many others. Personally I don't understand how a person could read the Book of Mormon without rejoicing in God and deeply feeling the truth of it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

In truth, the BoM clearly shows this illiterate Joseph Smith sat down with pen and paper and God's Word, and wrote an incredible replica-(false imitation) of God's Word,
by having nearly all the same events happen here on North America, and thru other people.Thats one of the best, but most apparent forgeries I've ever had the privaledge to read.

I'm not sure that you and I have even read the same book. Clearly Joseph Smith was not learned in the ways of the world, but the reality of the Book of Mormon is to me the greatest witness that he was called of God to be a prophet. He was not illiterate, or he clearly could not have read the Bible, never mind forged it.
I suggest you read the Book of Mormon again.
Since you have more education than a poor farm boy, please go ahead and write a book of 500 pages that claims to be the spiritual record of an ancient civilization. Oh, and you must write it in such a way that the timeline lines up with biblical and secular history. Also, you must make others believe in it in such a way that they mortgage their properties so that it can be printed, and leave their homes and families to go to foreign lands to proclaim that it is the Word of God. And while you are at it, you need to have three people of your choice tell the world that they have seen an angel who showed them the original manuscripts from which your book was written; and even though these three people altogether turn from you and your beliefs, they must never deny their testimony that they have seen the angel and the manuscripts, even to their death. You must include a promise in the book that if people pray and ask God if it is true, God will answer their prayers in the affermative. Now having written your book, you need to persuade millions of people to follow it and testify to others that they know the book to be true because God answered their prayers that it is true. Good luck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

...
Historically speaking tho, according to Mormon's own admission, it was someone named- "Moroni" who originally wrote these supposed scriptures, then an apparition appeared to J.S. later, believed an angel of God, to get the then metal plates and the breastplate with the old Test "Seer stones- Urim and Thumim", to use in translating the writings.

Again, looks like you need to read the BofM to get the story straight. The Introduction makes this pretty clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

There is another clear problem. If J.S. was supposedly a True Chirstian, saved and reborn, why would God guide him to need these stones to translate the writings, when he had the Holy Spirit dwelling inside him to do this for him? (Particularly knowing God did away with "seers" and using those stones at the start of the New Test. Covenant.) Clearly it was not God guiding him to go against God to do that.

Good point here that the use and possesion of the Urim and Thummim seems limited to OT times. We don't believe that God did away with seers when the NT church was established, and that the Apostles who led the church were indeed "prophets, seers, revelators." I suppose God in infinite power could cause a person to translate an ancient record without these instruments, but for His own reasons this was not the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

I can only say this, to go thru the original Nicene "Creed" for Christianity, it clearly goes totally inline with God's Word in setting up clear God Word based beliefs, for use in seperating Christian from Cult religions.

The purpose of the creed was to act as a standard for Christian belief. In other words, the Nicene fathers got together and said, "What the heck do we believe?," then argued about it until they came to a compromise. We believe that this happened after the original Church that Christ had founded had fallen away, and that divine authority was lost. I don't think a person can argue it as a binding document unless they believe that it was inspired, which would imply additional revelation from God outside of the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Again, this is where you contradict God's Word, when God declares when the Bible was finished, that was it, there were no more.

This is a matter of interpretation of God's word. We claim our interpretation to be true, as you do yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Ok then, tell me this, because in the last century or more, considerable archeological and ancient literary finds have proven, no question the authenticity of the Old Test and references to charactors and teachings of the New Test, why are there not any such "finds" supporting the BoM if supposedly really of God? Surely, like His one and only True Word, the Bible, if the BoM were truely of God, wouldn't He have this eventually supported the same way?

I don't think that it is possible to either prove or disprove the authenticity of the BofM by physical evidence. Like the NT, evidence exists that seem to back up claims of an ancient civilization in the Americas, and even some of their beliefs and practices have been unearthed.
The truthfulness of the Book of Mormon comes to an individual as they read it, think about it, and ask God with sincerety and real intent if it is true. A person who follows this course will have their prayer answered.
If this sounds like a far-out way to find truth, consider the reality of the resurrection of Christ. True that secular evidence shows that He really lived and walked the earth, but the reality of His resurrection cannot be either proven or disproven -- it is a matter of faith and conviction. A person needs to come to a personal conviction that Christ lived again, and that He is their personal savior. This is the proof. Supporting evidence is just that -- it supports our faith and individual conviction. Same with the Book of Mormon. God does this on purpose with the BofM so that people must of necessity come to Him in faith and humility and ask. This is the only reason I know the truthfulness of the book personally; I was not convinced by external evidence (or "flesh and blood"), I was convinced of "my Father which is in heaven." See this principle played out in Matthew 16:13-17.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

As for the "calming of the sea" event, it's like the BoM is trying to put specific people on an equal level with Jesus Christ, thru doing the same identical miracles Jesus did, and this happened before Christ had even appaeared on earth.

No person did this miracle in the BofM. Read it again in 1 Nephi 18:21.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Commando

By the way, another interesting point. God only promised His "first chosen"- the land of canan. Where in God's Word does it show there was other land(s) God had promised to give them? No where.

This is a good example of truth and explanations found in the BofM that are not found in the Bible.

Posted by: Christian Commando

MarvellousWork-

I don't know what documentations you are using for your info. Alot of people claim we do not need any physical proof to back up God's Word as we are to take it on faith. Well, I say, if God has provided us with that, no reason why we can't use it.

Thats why I know of no physical evidence to back up the BoM, besides I got the info I have on all religions and Cults here in the U.S. from several major Religion Research Centers from the last 25-30 years of studying religions.

I have videos, audio tapes and some paperwork which shows copies of actual documents they send out up[on request.

But, my point is this, why continue on with this subject, when it is not benefiting the "Body of Christ" for the circular repetative path it has taken? Thus, I will no longer post in this thread, as it is of no value where we are once again.

Thank you for your time-

Posted by: JeriRose12

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeriRose12

I know that you would probably disagree with the authencity of my sources for the info that the Mormoms teach Jesus and the devil were brothers. So, for now, I will pose a couple other questions:

What has Jesus done for you?

What does Jesus mean to you?

I am not looking for what He has done you or means to you DOCTRINALLY. Please, in your own words, share what your relationship with Jesus is like.

Marvellous Work, what is your answer to these questions?

~JeriRose~
Finding HIM in 2006 (The Year Of The Double Portion!)