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Simple Doctrinal Differences

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Posted by: MamaCat

This is from a tract I use, going to houses in my neighborhood and leaving them on the doors where Mormons and Jehovah Witnessess frequent. If you or someone you know has been caught up into either of these groups, please give them this information and pray for their hearts, ears and eyes to be opened to receive the truth from the Bible.

Father God, in the name of Jesus Christ, I pray that whoever is presented with the truth about these two groups, even if they are already ensnared in them, will have their hearts, eyes and ears opened to the Truth, that the power of the Living God will manifest in their lives and deliver them and set them free from the deceptions, that Jesus Christ will become real to them in a way they'll know that they know that they know He is real, He is alive and He is Savior, LORD and God. AMEN!
Mormonism teaches:
- God used to be a man on another planet and Mormon members may become gods of their own worlds.1
- There are many many gods.2
- The Trinity is three separate Gods.3
- Entrance into celestial heaven is by the consent of God and the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith.4
- God has a body of flesh and bones.5
- God is married and produces spirit babies by having physical relations with his goddess wife.6
- Jesus, Satan, and all of us are spirit brothers and sisters procreated in a
pre-existent spirit life.7
- God had relations with Mary to make Jesus’ body.8
- You must shed your own blood for the forgiveness of some sins.9
- Good works are necessary for the forgiveness of sins.10

Be careful. Rarely will they mention these ’higher’ doctrines. Therefore, you really don’t know what they are teaching until long after you have joined. Be warned.

The Jehovah's Witnesses teach:
- Their church organization is the prophet of God.11
- Jesus returned invisibly in 1914.12
- Blood transfusions are sinful.13
- The Holy Spirit is God’s impersonal active force.14
- Only their church members will be saved.15
- Jesus was an angel who became a man.16
- Jesus did not rise from the dead physically.17
- There is no Trinity.18
- Good works are necessary for the forgiveness of sins.19

Be careful. Jehovah’s Witnesses will want to begin a home ‘Bible study’ with you. What they really want is for you to join their religion. These groups are non-Christian cults because they deny the true biblical doctrines of Jesus and salvation.

First, Mormonism says Jesus is the brother of the Devil.7 J.W.’s teach that he is an angel who became a man.16 These teachings are not biblical.

Second, both these cults erroneously say that in order to be saved you must cooperate with God by doing good works. The Bible says that salvation is a free gift from God.21 The Bible condemns the addition of our works to the finished sacrifice of Jesus.22 Galatians 2:21 says that if salvation comes by works ("if righteousness comes through the Law"), then Jesus died needlessly. Salvation comes by God’s grace through faith alone, not by our works21 which are impure.29 Simply put, they each preach a false message of salvation.

The Bible teaches: there is only one God;23 God is spirit;24 Jesus’ sacrifice cleanses from all sin;25 Jesus is the only way to God;26 all who receive Jesus as Savior will be saved;27 and Jesus is God in flesh20 who rose from the dead in the same body He diedin.28 These are some of the things the Christian church has always believed. These two cults distort them and thus lead many into eternal damnation. Why? Because...only the Jesus of the Bible saves, not the brother of Satan (Mormonism), not an angel made into a man (Jehovah’s Witnesses). Faith works only when you trust someone who is true.

The Mormons and J.W.’s are good people and we love them; but, they are misled.30 They do not know that the true gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for our sins and that we receive His forgiveness by faith alone (faith in the true Jesus). Satan has blinded them.30 Jesus said that if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the pit.31 That is why this Christian ministry is exposing these cults, so you won’t be deceived.

If you want to be assured of the forgiveness of your sins and have peace with God, then you must realize that you have sinned against God,32 and are separated from Him.33 Then, ask Jesus into your life; ask Him to forgive you of your sins, and save you. He will.27 He is Savior and Lord and He is as close as the call of your heart. Then read your Bible and go to a Bible believing church. At least now you know which two not to join. Eternity is a long time to be wrong.
______________________________________________

DOCUMENTATION FROM MORMON WRITINGS
1) Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 321.
2) Ibid., p. 163.
3) Ibid., p. 319.
4) Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, P.289.
5) Doctrine and Covenants 130:22. 6)
6) McConkie, p. 516.
7) Ibid., pp. 192;589.
8) Ibid., pp.741-742; The Seer, p. 158.
9) Doctrines of Salvation by Joseph Smith, Vol. I p. 135.
10) Articles of Faith, p. 79.

DOCUMENTATION FROM J. W. WRITINGS
11) The Watchtower, April 1, 1972, pp.197, 200.
12) You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, 1982, p. 147.
13) Reasoning from the Scriptures, pp 70-76.
14) Holy Spirit, 1976, p. 11.
15) Ibid., Feb. 15, 1979, p. 30.
16) Aid to Bible Understanding, p. 1152; New Heavens and New Earth, p. 30.
17) You Can Live Forever...pp. 143, 144, 172.
18) Let God be True, p. 101.
19) Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. I pp. 150,152.

DOCUMENTATION FROM THE BIBLE (GOD)
20) John 1:1,14, 8:58, 10:30; Col. 2:9.
21) Rom. 6:23; 3:28; 4:5. Eph. 2:8-9.
22) Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4.
23) Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8.
24) John 4:24.
25) 1 John 1:7,2:2.
26) John 14:6.
27) John 1:12; Rom. 10:9-10.
28) Luke 24:39; John 2:19-21.
29) Isaiah 64:6
30) 2 Cor. 4:3-4.
31) Luke 6:39.
32) Rom. 3:23, 5:12
33) Isaiah 59:2.


Posted by: christythompson

Thanks very much for this.
I also understand their bibles are altered as well, so use your own!!!


Posted by: ajholloway

If you wanted to learn about a Ford, previous to buying a new car, would you go to a Chevy dealer and ask them?

If you want to know what a Mormon believes, and what the Church is all about, talk to an LDS friend/relative. (Same with JW's.)

In my opinion, the best way to know what Mormons believe is by reading the Book of Mormon. Why? Not so that I can convert you, or convince you that what I believe is correct, but so that you know for yourself. The LDS church is growing in ever-increasing numbers. The LDS population in the New England city where I live has at least tripled since I joined the church in 1991. Soon your neighbor or relative will be LDS and you will need to talk to them about their faith intelligently without misrepresenting their beliefs. Few arguers know much about the Church except what they read in an old and misrepresentative pamphlet.


Posted by: ajholloway

Quote:
Originally Posted by christythompson
Thanks very much for this.
I also understand their bibles are altered as well, so use your own!!!
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints uses the King James Version of the Bible unaltered. The Church has, however, added footnotes to their published Bible to cross-reference to other LDS scripture like the Book of Mormon.


Posted by: christythompson

Thank you
Do you have anything for people caught up in scientology?


Posted by: ajholloway

Quote:
Originally Posted by christythompson
Thank you
Do you have anything for people caught up in scientology?
Perhaps a good dose of common sense and prayer.


Posted by: MarkSentMe

Christianity is anchored on the infallible Word of God, believing that the Bible is sufficient and authoritative for all matters of faith, life, and godliness. We affirm that God exists in three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), that He spoke the universe into existence in six days, that all men have sinned and fall short of God's glory, that the wages of sin is eternal damnation and that the only way to be reconciled to God unto salvation is by being united by faith to the substitutionary work of Jesus Christ our Lord, who came to earth as a man, lived a perfect life, died on the cross, was buried three days and rose triumphantly from the dead.


Posted by: Christian Commando

Having read the BoM over and over many times, I've written down hundreds out of the total number od discrepancies that prove it is not of God. The one major proof is that it was written showing nearly identical events to god's Word, but with people doing the miracles, not Christ.

Second- If checked back, I could find the false scriptures of BoM that claim the New Jerusalem will come down on the North American Continent, not at Jerusalem as God declares in the Bible.

Third- Mormons doing geneology work are to have what is known as a "testiment", where the spirit of a dead relative comes back to share info with them to be able to continue thier work, that also they can recieve Salvation after physical death, etc.

For Jehovah witnesses-

Actually, it was claimed they claimed Christ was to return on quite a few different dates as time went on, thru the 1800s to the early 1900s.

Right Sis in Christ, Jesus is claimed to have been the Arch Angel Gabriel to begin with, but came to earth as Jesus the first time around.

Concerning Jesus Christ, they consider this more like a "type" of personality or perspective as it were, rather than Jesus being "God in the flesh".

Thier god is only one member with just an "impersonal" type of force of God or personality- perspective to take the place of the other members talked about.

They also believe as mentioned you must work like crazy to show yourself approved to enter heaven or become a god too.

Just as with any Cult religion, a good understanding of God's Word always shows clearly, the discrepancies when just listening to the beliefs shared by the elders of thier religions or "Reps." who come to call and share thier beliefs.

So far, none of the 15 or more Cults that Reps came to visit me have enjoyed discussions about thier beliefs, when God starts popping out Scriptures from His only True Word, that clearly discredit thier beliefs and leave them unable to hold any candle to God's Truth.

I can only pray for those who are lost, following these false doctrines thinking they are the saved ones, when really, only following satan imitating God thru those doctrines.

They all sound very inviting and very sincere, yet, like with Jim Jones, Charles Manson, Ba'ahaulah, Mary Baker Eddie and all the others, they have no idea they are headed for Hell. I pray for ways to get thru to more who follow these false doctrines to bring more soulsto Salvation from God thru the one and only true Jesus Christ and God's only True Word!!


Posted by: MarkSentMe

Pastor Todd said it this way: "A bold witness repeats a simple message"

Instead of arguing your point with non-Christians, stick to one verse of Scripture and keep repeating it. When they offer counter ideas, stay to the verse.


Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Having read the BoM over and over many times, I've written down hundreds out of the total number od discrepancies that prove it is not of God. The one major proof is that it was written showing nearly identical events to god's Word, but with people doing the miracles, not Christ.
I don't think it is inconsistent in scripture for a person to perform a miracle in the name of the Lord. Consider the miracles of Elijah, or the miracles done by the New Testament Apostles. To deny miracles is to deny that God can work through those who put their trust in Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Second- If checked back, I could find the false scriptures of BoM that claim the New Jerusalem will come down on the North American Continent, not at Jerusalem as God declares in the Bible.
Ether chapter 13 in the BofM talks about this. It is also makes the distinction between the Jerusalem of old and the New Jerusalem. Basically, the old Jerusalem will be rebuilt, and this is not a 'new' Jerusalem because it was in a time of old, but a New Jerusalem should come also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Third- Mormons doing geneology work are to have what is known as a "testiment", where the spirit of a dead relative comes back to share info with them to be able to continue thier work, that also they can recieve Salvation after physical death, etc.
Nope. There is no requirement in LDS genealogy work that a person receive any sort of communication from a dead relative. I have talked to one lady who stated that she felt she had 'help' from a higher source in finding some of her ancestral information, but communication from the dead is not a prerequisite for any work.
This brings up a good point on the salvation of those who have never heard the name of Christ, which is the majority of all people on the earth. There is a good book out by some Christian authors called 'What about those who have never heard?' It details various writer's opinions on the matter, and at least one believes there is the opportunity to learn the Gospel after death.
The LDS viewpoint is that:
1. We view baptism as essential for salvation (to those who are of the age of accountability). See John 3:5.
2. A person cannot accept Christ except they should have someone teach them. See Romans 10:14.
3. The majority of people who have lived, and do live on the earth have not heard the name of Christ, or his Gospel preached.
4. When Christ died, he went to those spirits who were in spirit prison to preach the good news to them. See John 5:25-29, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 1 Peter 4:6.
5. Righteous souls when they die assist in this work.
6. Elijah the prophet appeared to Joseph Smith in 1836 and conferred upon him the authority to do this work. This visit was prophesied by Malachi in Malachi 4:5-6 -- note the language of the heart of children turning to their fathers.
7. We trace back our genealogy and submit the names of our ancestors to one of the Church's Temples to have the baptism performed 'for and in behalf of' the deceased individual. In the ceremony, a living person is baptized by proxy for the deceased. The deceased person of course has the freedom to accept or not accept the ordinance in their behalf.

I hope this clarifies.


Posted by: Christian Commando

MarvellousWork-

On point 1, you missed my point made. Not that miracles couldn't happen "in the name of the Lord", but rather, the fact identical events are shown in the BoM to those of God's only True Word, except they are performed by Lehi, Nephi and others.

The fact still remains, there is no evidence in God's only True Word, of this "Another Test. of Jesus Christ", particularly knowing God declares, when His Word was finished, that was it. There is no more.

Point 2- You'll find, in Ether13:8- "Wherefore the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land"- "like unto the Jerusalem of old". 9- "And there shall be a new Heaven and a new earth and they shall be like unto the oldsave the old has passed awayand all things have become new". 10- "And then cometh the New Jerusalem" "and they are they who are numbered among the remnant of the seed of Joseph, who were of the House of Isreal".

Now, this clearly shows my friend, the remnant may build a city like Old Jerusalem, yet it also clearly shows, once the old heaven and earth are gone and the new ones are here, this "New Jerusalem" I spoke of will be placed in North America, according to the BoM, by it's own scriptural admission, concerning the remnant of the seed of Joseph being numbered in that city.

Sorry my friend, I have video and audio tape evidence of people who left Mormonism after spending most of thier lives in it, confessing this, among other strange beliefs.

Sorry again friend, personal beliefs given in writings do not come close to equal authority to God's Word. No one can ever make a choice to get saved and reborn after physical death. question that? Look at Christ's story of the richman and Lazarus, where, when the richman died, he lifted up his eyes from Hell. (Notice this happens to him right after physical death). Then God declares thru the Apostle Paul for True Children of God- "To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord".

Both Scriptural examples prove, beyond a doubt, the spirit of a dead person goes strait to one place or the other.

As for your numbered points LDS believes-

1- God made it essential for Jews to be water baptises- "Be baptized for the remission of sins, and recieve the Gift of the Holy Spirit. But for Gentiles- Peter declares to other Jews with him- "can we refuse water to those who have recieved the Gift of the Holy Spirit as you and I have"?

Special note- Except for speaking directly to Jews of this, Jesus never spoke of the ceremonial law of- "baptism", only the 9 moral commandments, which leaves Gentiles not required to be water baptised to be saved, yet are commanded to do it at some point for public confession of following Christ.

2- How do you mean? sitting down with another and instructing them? God declares Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

I've met alot of people who came across the Gospel being shared during a message they listened to on the radio, passing by Church gatherings, even a couple who, so distraught with thier life or situation, they finally went and got a Bible and started reading and God took them thru the Gospel message-(Check out the movie called- "Fury to Freedom" about Raul Reese's conversion experience).

3- I agree, but if recall correctly, the LDS believes those who've died without hearing will have the chance to decide then. WRONG!! Why? Because of #4

4- Look closely at John 5:25-29. Verse 27 is the key- "And hath given Him authority to execute judgement also."

That Scripture Jesus is refering to the "Great White Throne Judgement". Why? Verse 28- "in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice" 29- and shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the ressurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the ressurrection of damnation."

Clearly Jesus is refering to the last great judgement in which all people will come before the Throne of God and see judgement declared on each one for permanent residence. (After all, Hell is only a temp. holding place for lost souls).

In I Peter 3:18-20, the reference in verse 20 shows clearly these were True Children of God, not unsaved people. But realize also, the Hell of the Old Test, was made of two compartments- one of torment, the other of comfort. (Look at the Hebrew word for Hell in the Old Test and look at it's definition.)

The comfort side was known as "Paradise". Why? People could not be saved thru animal sacrifice, but it only "covered" thier sin. Thus when Jesus hung on the cross, He told one repentant thief hanging next to Him- "Today, thou shalt be with Me in Paradise".

5- Please show Biblical Scriptural reference where the rightceous are assisting with that-(what), work.

6- In all of God's Word, theres only one example where God ever allowed one of His dead Children to appear to anyone and thats with King Saul of Old Test. fame. Otherwise, spirits can never leave the place they go to.- (See again, richman and Lazarus).

Note this- God allowed that to happen for King Saul in that extreme case, but, note as well, God took Saul to a premature grave-(death). Secondly- Tho Saul did belong to God, he hasn't since his disobedience. Why? The lising of God's Old Test Saints by New Test Apostles do not include King Saul's name in it.

My friend, I suggest you read the Scriptures in revelation concerning Elijah's return. He along with one other man of God were the only two people taken to Heaven alive. Why?

God declares, "It's appointed unto all men once to die". Well, they haven't.... "yet". Revelation shows at one point during the anti-christ's reign over the earth, two witnesses of God shall appear and bear witness in preaching God's Word during that time. then, they shall be killed. And then later, God ressurrects them and shocks the world.

This happens, as prophecied in Malachi 4:5, right before the second coming of Jesus Christ. But, this all only goes on in Isreal, not here on North America.

7- Well, thats a nice sentiment but too bad is worthless to do. Again, read the richman and Lazarus story. Note that no spirits of dead people can go back to visit the living, besides the dead cannot go beyond the boundaries set.

Yea, it clarifies the blindness of satan over people following such doctrines. Forgive me if sounds blunt, but is true.

Thank you for your responce-


Posted by: anitarose

LOL about the Scientology question...since I live in Tampa, one of the biggest bastions of Scientology (Clearwater).

Mormonism is a strange religion...I had a video of the movie called "The GodMakers" and man was it weird...they said the LDS believed that they were from the planet Kolon....and that the black race was condemned forever because they were black..of course, modern LDS (or LSD, depends on who you talk to, LOL) say they refuted that, but it was never taken out of their texts..also (and I think this was said to get the attention of the younger crowd) they believed that in the afterlife men can have as many wives as they want, head back to the planet Kolon, and they have endless celestial sex...sheesh.....oh, and one more thing----any LDS member who happens to have a copy of "The GodMakers" in their possession is automatically and summarily excommunicated...without appeal....gee, wonder why? Are they afraid of their secrets getting out? It's well known that some of the "secret rites" of the LDS are actually Freemason rites...according to this movie, of course...

The JW's do have their own adulterated Bible. My BIL is a self-styled JW minister...funny thing is, my other BIL is Catholic and they hate each other with a holy passion...but my ex husband had the best answer to get JWs away from him....one came on his doorstep one time and was talking to him, and he said "ok, you can tell me about your religion but I have to tell you about mine...I'm a Satanist...I have the beautiful altar in my basement, want to come downstairs and see it?" The JW fled and never came back...of course my ex was kidding about being a Satanist, but he is also a homosexual, so it's about the same thing....anyway...

Bottom line, and this is what I was taught in church a long time ago: if you have to add or subtract anything to God's Word or Jesus, it's a cult.

Anita


Posted by: MarkSentMe

Quote:
Bottom line, and this is what I was taught in church a long time ago: if you have to add or subtract anything to God's Word or Jesus, it's a cult.


Works for me.

My Sunday school teacher said he invites them in (JW's) and explains that they can go over, line for line, word for word with the Bible. No other text is allowed and no other doctrines will be used, only God's Word. Usually they come up with another pressing appointment and hurry off.


Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
MarvellousWork-

On point 1, you missed my point made. Not that miracles couldn't happen "in the name of the Lord", but rather, the fact identical events are shown in the BoM to those of God's only True Word, except they are performed by Lehi, Nephi and others.
Perhaps I am missing something here. What events are you referring to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
The fact still remains, there is no evidence in God's only True Word, of this "Another Test. of Jesus Christ", particularly knowing God declares, when His Word was finished, that was it. There is no more.
We don't believe that God declared that his word was finished. See the 'mormon guy' thread on points I have made here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Point 2- You'll find, in Ether13:8- "Wherefore the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land"- "like unto the Jerusalem of old". 9- "And there shall be a new Heaven and a new earth and they shall be like unto the oldsave the old has passed awayand all things have become new". 10- "And then cometh the New Jerusalem" "and they are they who are numbered among the remnant of the seed of Joseph, who were of the House of Isreal".

Now, this clearly shows my friend, the remnant may build a city like Old Jerusalem, yet it also clearly shows, once the old heaven and earth are gone and the new ones are here, this "New Jerusalem" I spoke of will be placed in North America, according to the BoM, by it's own scriptural admission, concerning the remnant of the seed of Joseph being numbered in that city.
Yes, we believe this. The New Jerusalem will be built in the Americas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Sorry my friend, I have video and audio tape evidence of people who left Mormonism after spending most of thier lives in it, confessing this, among other strange beliefs.
I don't think I would trust a person who left the LDS church to portray an accurate representation of it. They left for some reason; whether a doctrinal disagreement, being offended be another person, or other reasons. A person in the Church should have enough knowledge to represent the beliefs of the Church accurately, while a dissenter often resorts to sensationalism to justify their rejection of such 'strange' beliefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Sorry again friend, personal beliefs given in writings do not come close to equal authority to God's Word.
No, but if God has spoken more words than one (as we attest), then they are equally binding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
No one can ever make a choice to get saved and reborn after physical death. question that? Look at Christ's story of the richman and Lazarus, where, when the richman died, he lifted up his eyes from Hell. (Notice this happens to him right after physical death). Then God declares thru the Apostle Paul for True Children of God- "To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord".

Both Scriptural examples prove, beyond a doubt, the spirit of a dead person goes strait to one place or the other.
You are correct in your last statement here. We believe in dual states for the dead, as you have also stated below: paradise, and darkness/hell/prison Important in the Lazarus story is the statement that there was a great gulf between the rich man and Lazarus which Lazarus could not pass. We believe that after Christ's death, he preached to the departed souls in this spirit prison, and formed a permanent bridge between these spirit states whereby those who are ordained to do so may preach to those in darkness, and those who are in darkness may accept vicarious baptism on their behalf and enter into the light. We also believe that Paul uses baptism for the dead to prove the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:29, and that this practice was done in the early church.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
As for your numbered points LDS believes-

1- God made it essential for Jews to be water baptises- "Be baptized for the remission of sins, and recieve the Gift of the Holy Spirit. But for Gentiles- Peter declares to other Jews with him- "can we refuse water to those who have recieved the Gift of the Holy Spirit as you and I have"?
Acts 10:47-48 that you have partially quoted here clearly shows that Gentile believers were baptized when they received the testimony of the Holy Ghost and believed. To believe that this was necessary for Jews only goes against John 3:3-5, "except a man..." I take this to mean all mankind, not just Jews.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
...

2- How do you mean? sitting down with another and instructing them? God declares Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

I've met alot of people who came across the Gospel being shared during a message they listened to on the radio, passing by Church gatherings, even a couple who, so distraught with thier life or situation, they finally went and got a Bible and started reading and God took them thru the Gospel message-(Check out the movie called- "Fury to Freedom" about Raul Reese's conversion experience).
Just stating Romans 10:14 here. If you disagree with this verse, then you disagree with the Bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando

3- I agree, but if recall correctly, the LDS believes those who've died without hearing will have the chance to decide then. WRONG!! Why? Because of #4

4- Look closely at John 5:25-29. Verse 27 is the key- "And hath given Him authority to execute judgement also."

That Scripture Jesus is refering to the "Great White Throne Judgement". Why? Verse 28- "in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice" 29- and shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the ressurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the ressurrection of damnation."

Clearly Jesus is refering to the last great judgement in which all people will come before the Throne of God and see judgement declared on each one for permanent residence. (After all, Hell is only a temp. holding place for lost souls).
I believe that the scripture here has dual meaning. Ressurection, yes. But the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
In I Peter 3:18-20, the reference in verse 20 shows clearly these were True Children of God, not unsaved people.
These were people who were disobedient in the days of Noah. They are obviously dead at the time this scripture was written. And Christ preaches to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
...

5- Please show Biblical Scriptural reference where the rightceous are assisting with that-(what), work.
Sorry, this is a modern revelation through a prophet in our day, which we believe in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
...

My friend, I suggest you read the Scriptures in revelation concerning Elijah's return. He along with one other man of God were the only two people taken to Heaven alive. Why?

God declares, "It's appointed unto all men once to die". Well, they haven't.... "yet". Revelation shows at one point during the anti-christ's reign over the earth, two witnesses of God shall appear and bear witness in preaching God's Word during that time. then, they shall be killed. And then later, God ressurrects them and shocks the world.
The two servants slain in Jerusalem are never specifically named. We don't believe Elijah to be one of them. Besides, Elijah's foretold mission is to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers. Sounds like genealogy work to me.


Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:
Originally Posted by anitarose
...
Mormonism is a strange religion...I had a video of the movie called "The GodMakers" and man was it weird...they said the LDS believed that they were from the planet Kolon....and that the black race was condemned forever because they were black..of course, modern LDS (or LSD, depends on who you talk to, LOL) say they refuted that, but it was never taken out of their texts..also (and I think this was said to get the attention of the younger crowd) they believed that in the afterlife men can have as many wives as they want, head back to the planet Kolon, and they have endless celestial sex...sheesh.....oh, and one more thing----any LDS member who happens to have a copy of "The GodMakers" in their possession is automatically and summarily excommunicated...without appeal....gee, wonder why? Are they afraid of their secrets getting out? It's well known that some of the "secret rites" of the LDS are actually Freemason rites...according to this movie, of course...
...
1. See the quotes I made about about folks who left the church, and sensationalism.
2. The LDS church makes no stipulation on what a member may or may not posess or watch in the way of media, (except that we are told to shun pornography in all forms, and not watch movies that are "R" rated or above.)
3. Excommunication in the church is only for certain offences, and requires a "trial" of the person before their priesthood leadership, and others the person may invite. The person is free to make any statements representing themselves or their actions.
4. FM rites are only distantly related to LDS temple rites. The FM belief is that their rites came down from Solomon's temple. I believe that they probably did, and were corrupted along the way. The LDS temple ritual was given by revelation, and as such can only be fully understood by revelation. This is why you won't persuade any Latter-day Saint who is true to their obligation to God to talk in depth about them.



Forgot to add here that excommunication decisions are always appealable to a higher church authority, all the way up to the president of the church, who's decision is final.


Posted by: MarvellousWork

Also, concerning JW's: If you tell them you are a Mormon, they will never come back. Too bad they are not willing to listen to other's viewpoints and discuss things openly.


Posted by: anitarose

Go back to the last statement I made in the post, MW. If anyone adds or subtracts to the Gospel in any way shape or form, it is not the true Gospel. Your church believes it has a "new testament" of Jesus Christ. Nowhere in Scripture are the names of Nephi or Levi (other than the son of Jacob) mentioned as angels. When Jesus made the reference to "other flock that ye not know" I believe he was referring to the Gentiles.

Produce a picture of the Golden Tablets that Joseph Smith recovered, and I'll change my mind. There are several proofs that the Bible is historically and archaeologically (is that a word?) real. Prove to me that your belief system is real. Produce a recent picture of those Golden Tablets and I will think about changing my mind.

It is well known historically that Joseph Smith was a pathological liar. You found your entire religion on the back of a pathological liar. That's OK, because Scientology was founded by a science fiction writer, so it's about the same.

Get me unbiased archaelogical proof that those Golden Tablets exist and I will leave you alone. If you don't, well......I won't go into what I and others will think about it.

God bless you!
Anita


Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:
Originally Posted by anitarose
Go back to the last statement I made in the post, MW. If anyone adds or subtracts to the Gospel in any way shape or form, it is not the true Gospel.

Good point. The Church does not claim to add to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but claims that truths of the Gospel that were lost anciently were restored through the instrumentality of a modern-day prophet.

The Book of Mormon does not add to the Gospel, like if you only had Matthew, Mark and Luke, adding John does not add to the Gospel. It is an additional witness of Christ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anitarose
Your church believes it has a "new testament" of Jesus Christ. Nowhere in Scripture are the names of Nephi or Levi (other than the son of Jacob) mentioned as angels. When Jesus made the reference to "other flock that ye not know" I believe he was referring to the Gentiles.
Another testament of Jesus Christ, not a new testament of Jesus Christ.
Book of Mormon names are not mentioned in the Bible becuase they did not live in the area where the Bible was written, but lived in the Americas. True, Lehi and his family lived in Jerusalem some time before they left prior to the Babylonian captivity, but since their departure comes shortly after Lehi's prophetic calling, it is no surprise that there is no record of his ministry in the Near East.
The "other sheep" statement in John 10:16 we believe to mean Lehi's company in the Americas, and probably others like the lost tribes, etc. The Lord in making the statement says that "they shall hear my voice."
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitarose
Produce a picture of the Golden Tablets that Joseph Smith recovered, and I'll change my mind. ... Prove to me that your belief system is real. Produce a recent picture of those Golden Tablets and I will think about changing my mind.
...
Get me unbiased archaelogical proof that those Golden Tablets exist and I will leave you alone. ...
Where is faith? If all we seek after is proof and signs, there is no place for faith!
True that archeological evidence exists for Biblcal history, but a belief in things that we cannot see is faith. I take these things in faith, with a personal witness that they are true: God lives, Jesus Christ is His Son and my savior, Christ was in reality resurrected, God works in my life through the medium of the Holy Spirit, God loves me and you with more love than we can comprehend. All of these and more are known to me from personal witness and faith; there is no archeological evidence that will prove or disprove any of them, Biblical physical evidence notwithstanding. You cannot convert anyone to a faith in Christ by showing them piles of archeological data, it is a personal experience brought about by faith in Christ and a desire to serve Him.

Peter had such an experience in Matthew 16:13-17. Note that "flesh and blood" did not tell Peter that Jesus was the Messiah (i.e. physical evidence), but Father in Heaven.

But, since you seek, I will give you undeniable evidence that the Book of Mormon is true and they were translated from ancient plates. Here is the formula you must do yourself to see the proof:
1. Read and study the Book of Mormon, prayerfully that God will enlighten your mind.
2. Ponder the things you have read. Think about them. What does it imply if they are true?
3. Ask God with sincerity and with real intent if they are true. (Sincerity means you really want to know if they are true. Real intent means that you will follow it if it is true.)
4. If you follow this pattern then God will make it manifest to you that it is true by the power of His Spirit. You cannot have a greater witness than from God; you will know of yourself, independent of anyone or anything else.

The evidence is here for everyone, people. Though we talk doctrine and viewpoints all day long, a person having this witness from God is in a unique position. Having obtained this witness, it will continue to grow in a person so long as they are faithful.


Posted by: Christian Commando

MarvellousWork-

On your point 1 above, I realize it's claimed the BoM is supposed to contain Scriptures that were lost. But, God does not declare any will and will be found again in His Word. Thus, how can that religion claim such a thing without original Biblical basis of truth from God?

Point 2- I would suggest you relook at what you stated there. Remember, Lehi was supposedly around Isreal in that time, sharing God's Word and more for God. Do not contradict what is claimed in the BoM if trying to back it up.

Remember the father-in-law of Moses who came from out of the area and spoke to Moses was also mentioned in God's Word. Thus, so should Lehi and his family, if truely worked for God back then in Isreal's region.

Point 3- Sorry MW, but the "other flock" Jesus refers to in John 10, relates to the "grafted branch" which pertains to Gentiles being adopted into the family of believers. This is confirmed by the vision of Ezekiel of the "Valley of Dry Bones", where, in it's interpretation, God shows two rods that at first are seperate, but later are put together as one piece- (one body of Christ).

This happened, when Christ gave Peter the keys to unlock the door of Salvation to the Gentiles. While they are still seperate in practices because of Jews being God's "First Chosen" and Gentiles being adopted or grafted into the family, is why this is. Even so, tho we are seperate, we are all still of the whole "Body of Christ".

You know, when first got a copy of the BoM, I prayed sincerely to God to show me if this were a true Testiment of Christ or not as I read thru it. You know what happened?

God took me back thru it several more times, leading me also thru His only True Word, showing me the clear discrepancies of that doctrine. So, sorry to burst your bubble, but thats already been tried and done to the BoM's failure in proof. And I had prayed and fasted for two days before that in my praying to know the Truth.

Well, having the witness to such things, if believe is from God, is very clearly decieved by satan as a wolf in sheeps clothing.

I can only pray my friend, one day God will open up the lies of this false doctrine to you and show you how so many are following satan and his demons to Hell by that.

Since God declares in His only True Word that His Word is profitable for proving and reproving doctrine, God is telling us to use His Word to compare other doctrines to It as wether of God or not.

Also, to re-iterate on a much earlier point made, I also suggest the apparitions that appeared to joseph Smith were satan or demons. Why? They commanded him to go and use a method God had done away at the start of the New Covenant.

Seers of God back in OT times used to use a Urim or Thumim stone for prophecying. Since Christ came and left, True Children of God had the Holy Spirit dwelling within them to "lead us to all Truth".

Thus, that is proof right there, we are not to use those stones for such things anymore. This is why my friend, what happened to JS could not have been of God, but of satan. question that?

Read about how satan, as the serpent, twisted God's Word to decieve Eve into sinning. Then also read about satan's temptation of Christ. In both cases, satan showed he knew God's Word forward and backward, and used It in a twisted way to try and decieve Christ as well as Eve.

Take care-


Posted by: anitarose

aptly said, CC.

Anita


Posted by: Christian Commando

Good to have you back MarvellousWork-

Point 1-I would suggest you take your own advice given anitarose and check the other forums you posted in about this subject. I clearly showed several examples to name a few, where there were identical events. Your answer there is needless to say, less than satisfactory.

Point 2- Well then, it's pretty clear you believe God's Word as falable, since God clearly declares when It was finished, that was it. God talks of many other things Christ had done, butr yet shows only the things written in this "Book"- (Bible), were written that others might believe. Never ever mentioning any other written Word that may come up later.

Point 3- How is it that now you agree since showed proof, when disagreed with me before? I would suggest we keep things much more honest in admitting we don't know, when thats the case.

Secondly, that proves right there the BoM contradicts God's Word. Particularly since God does not show in His Word there will be two "New Jerusalem's", only one.

Point 4- Well, the same goes for me too, when discussing points with people who aren't being honest about info. But, the people I mentioned left the LDS Church after meeting the True and Living God thru the True Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Point 5- Show Biblical proof where God declares He has other writings His children are to follow.

Point 6- I suggest you read the story of the Richman and Lazarus over again. There is no proof the richman could recieve Salvation there. Notice Abraham tells him its too late and that people must accept the Truth or not while alive, not after physical death, why? Judgement on a person as where they are going forever- eternal seperation from God or eternal Life with God is set at that point of physical death.

There is another false belief in a place where people who are supposedly marginal sinners can go and spend time there until God has made a final decision about them. A lie of satan. There is no such place mentioned in God's Word, nor is there Biblical proof to show people from Paradise or Hell can be chosen by God to minister to the unsaved spirits asigned to Hell.

Point 7- So, your saying then Jesus is a liar when declares to Jews- "Be baptized for the remission of sins and recieve the Gift of the Holy Spirit". That they must be water baptized first?

Secondly- Sorry pal, you missed that one. Remember, Nicodemus was a Jewish religious Leader. Of course Jesus would state the rebirth process the same for him.

Point 8- Well, I would suggest you read alittle further thru Scripture at that reference. God is not dealing with spirits of the dead, but live people of Isreal. Rom. 10:18-21.

I agree with the Scriptures being of God, but not with misinterpretation of them by people.

Point 9- Oh yea, even the unsaved will hear Christ then, a call to thier final judgement to the "Lake of Fire" on that day of judgement. But certainly not for anything else.

And yes, they will recieve a transfigured physical body of eternal essence. But only to allow them to live forever in torment in the "Lake of Fire".

point 10- Yea, they were in prison, but remember what we disussed earlier where I mentioned the translation and definition of the word Hell in the OT Hebrew? Remember one side was of comfort, the other of torment.

When Jesus descended to Paradise, you can be sure He told Old Test believers who He was, what was happening and what their near future would be right after Ressurrection.

After all, God declares Christ was the "First fruits of the ressurrection, with every man after Him, according to his order". (Refering to True Children of God).

By the way, I'm afraid your mistaken about the lost souls in prison being of those back in Noah's Day being preached to in Hell for repentance. Why?

You forget God wiped out all but 8 people- Noah's family, from the earth, because God declares of man- Gen. 6:5-6- And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

You can be assured, God would never ever give people like that a chance to come into Heaven.

Jesus went to Paradise, the comfort side to suffer with the sin He took upon Himself. Yet, while there, He preached to the Children of God who were not yet saved, but only covered of thier sin by following God's sacrifice ordinances.

Jesus Christ never preached to unsaved souls who did not accept God's ordinances of animal sacrifices. As in the story of the Richman and Lazarus again, notice Abraham told the Richman the people the RM wanted to help realize the Truth, who were still alive, had to choose to believe- (while alive on earth), or would end up with the RM in Hell at physical death.

So, why would Christ minister to the unsaved people who were already in Hell for thier unbelief back when alive, and made thier final choice then? He would not. There is no clear evidence Christ preached unto the unsaved, but there is clear evidence He went to Paradise, by His own admission on the cross.

Point 11- Where do you get "geneology work" out of that Scripture? Its states that fathers and sons will come back to getting along with each other. Notice the description- ("Turn the heart"). Thats refering to a change in countenance towards each other.

Well, I guess then, you don't believe the only True Word of God about it being appointed unto all men once to die, is that right? Particularly when Elijah and Elisha were the only two people ever taken by God alive to Heaven and not back to earth yet to die.

Before thinking I was wrong in that I Peter 3:18-20, remember, Christ went to Paradise, not the torment side of Hell to minister to God's True children, not the lost souls of Hell.

If there were a chance the unsaved could still turn to Salvation after death, this would've been evident in that story of the Richman and Lazarus. It is not. Why? Jesus declares, if it were so, I would have told you. He doesn't tho.

And don't take the Scripture reference I mentioned what Jesus said as being only for the specific time He was speaking then. What He states is mean't for all His Word taught-(The only True Word of God-Bible). Otherwise people might get the idea Jesus was lieing at other times. Totally untrue. Jesus spoke the Truth all the time.

Point 12- Your reference to that belief coming from a modern day prophet is not acceptable before God, when not inline and confirmed by His one and only True Word- Bible. Thus, it holds no basis of truth for me either.

Thank you for your time and responces-


Posted by: MarkSentMe

3 Words:
"The Kinderhook Plates".


Posted by: Christian Commando

Well, as I recall, those Mormon Plates, were supposedly taken up to Heaven in JS's site along with several other witnesses. Which is a good tale, but probably as untrue, as a person who claims to have found the lost city of Atlantis, after a pyramid partially surfaced above the ocean he was fishing on, then later went skin diving in that area, claiming to have found it sunken under the ocean for 100s of miles.

Funny thing tho, for all the salvage operations of old and newer ships plus more in the area he described, no one else has ever reported seeing the same stuff under the ocean there.

Thus, I cannot accept such things as proof of confirmation. As said before, that must come from God's Word.


Posted by: MarkSentMe

The "Kinderhook Plates" a group of eight metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a "translation" of them. He never completed the translation, but he identified them as an ancient record, and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had copied the characters from a Chinese tea box.


oops!


Posted by: MarkSentMe

Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived. A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confess that the evidence tended to show that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient record, but concocted by Joseph Smith himself, based on ideas he had read in the earlier book.

The secret temple ritual (the "endowment") was introduced by Smith in May, 1842, just two months after he had been initiated into Freemasonry. The LDS temple ritual closely resembles the Masonic ritual of that day. Smith explained that the Masons had corrupted the ancient (God-given) ritual by changing it and removing parts of it, and that he was restoring it to its "pure" and "original" (and complete) form, as revealed to him by God. In the 150 years since, the LDS church has made many fundamental changes in the "pure and original" ritual as "restored" by Smith, mostly by removing major parts of it.

The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1838. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The Grammar has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up.


Deception
The problem with deception is that you don't know that you've been deceived.

In retrospect, finding out is actually a good thing ... even if it's hard to believe at the time


Posted by: Christian Commando

Hoooo, very good MarkSentMe- To add to that-

Documentations claim Joseph Smith was also quite illiterate, since having only went to school to an 8th grade level. The problem?

I suggest Joseph Smith had full grammer school education, for the fact other documentations prove he lived at a time where there were already 1- Some of the highest numbers of youth completing grammer school education. 2- There is documentations to prove the Eastern part of the US had advanced considerably, noting the numbers of grammer schools along with much higher numbers of colleges or universities as some call them in that part of the US.

So, I would suggest the claim JS was so illiterate is false, knowing these facts.

Also, the fact so many events of God's only true Word were copied by the charactors of the BoM proves to me, JS sat down with pencil and paper and a Bible, then wrote out an incredible fiction writing that closely resembles God's Word to make it more palitable for people to believe it was of God, even tho clearly not.

Not to mention MSMe's reference given to the Egyptian language with JS proves the pyramids supposedly built by Mormon descendants on North America is false by info shared, as well as DNA testing of chemical stains found on these "flat top" pyramids, proving to be both animal and human blood, showing the Egyptian rituals of animal and human sacrificing to thier false gods, on these altar type pyramids well noted as practiced by the Aztec and Mayan Indian tribes of Egyptian descendants, who are clearly documented as the early human descendants who one, came across from the bearing sea, while the other came across at the southern tip of South America.

But, even if the pyramids were proved to be built by Mormon descendants, I wouldn't follow that religion, as shown above, they sacrificed animals and humans alike. Definitely not of God.

I pray all this info helps-


Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
MarvellousWork-

On your point 1 above, I realize it's claimed the BoM is supposed to contain Scriptures that were lost. But, God does not declare any will and will be found again in His Word. Thus, how can that religion claim such a thing without original Biblical basis of truth from God?
Aside from the two "add to or take away from" scriptures that we talked about in an earler post, the Bible never claims that there never will be more revelation from God as scripture, or as living Prophets. (I have shown in the earlier post why we believe the "add to/take away" scriptures don't relate the Bible as a whole.) If God loves the world today the same as he did in previous times of living prophets and Apostles it makes sense to me that He would continue to send Prophets and Apostles to teach us. Is our world today filled with less problems than at the time of the compilation of the Bible? Do we need living Prophets and Apostles today less than those people in the Nt times? Just as the revelation from God to Adam didn't tell Noah how to build the ark, and the revelation from God to Noah didn't tell Isaiah how to treat pre-captivity Israel, and the revelation to Malachi didn't tell Peter James and John how to run the Christian Church, and the revelation from God to Peter didn't set in motion the conversion of Saul/Paul, the revelations from God to all people in the Bible does not tell the modern world or modern body of Christ how to prepare the world for the second advent of Christ. The Bible certainly does not claim to be closed, nor does it contain answers to the problems we face today. Therefore, such a thing as additional scripture from God is not only realistic, but necessary as we see it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Point 2- I would suggest you relook at what you stated there. Remember, Lehi was supposedly around Isreal in that time, sharing God's Word and more for God. Do not contradict what is claimed in the BoM if trying to back it up.

Remember the father-in-law of Moses who came from out of the area and spoke to Moses was also mentioned in God's Word. Thus, so should Lehi and his family, if truely worked for God back then in Isreal's region.
Not all prophets who prophesied of the captivity are mentioned by name, nor are all the acts they did recorded. Jeremiah was one of these, which we have a record of. We believe there were others. See 2 Kings 21:10, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Point 3- Sorry MW, but the "other flock" Jesus refers to in John 10, relates to the "grafted branch" which pertains to Gentiles being adopted into the family of believers. This is confirmed by the vision of Ezekiel of the "Valley of Dry Bones", where, in it's interpretation, God shows two rods that at first are seperate, but later are put together as one piece- (one body of Christ).

This happened, when Christ gave Peter the keys to unlock the door of Salvation to the Gentiles. While they are still seperate in practices because of Jews being God's "First Chosen" and Gentiles being adopted or grafted into the family, is why this is. Even so, tho we are seperate, we are all still of the whole "Body of Christ".
We believe the other flock refers to the Lehite community in the Americas. the Gentiles were not to "hear my voice" except through the mediation of the Apostles and through the Holy Ghost. Jesus Christ, when he visits the people in the Book of Mormon after His resurrection and ascension, tells them that they are the other sheep, not the Gentiles. See 3 Nephi 15:12-24.
The Ezekiel scripture you talk about is in chapter 37, vv 15-17. This is a favorite passage of Latter-day Saints, since it shows that the writings of Judah and his companions (The Bible), and the writings of Joseph (The stick of Ephraim, or in other words the Book of Mormon), shall become one. LDS use these two records as one in all our study, learning and preaching. These are not two peoples, but two writings as v16 attests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
You know, when first got a copy of the BoM, I prayed sincerely to God to show me if this were a true Testiment of Christ or not as I read thru it. You know what happened?

God took me back thru it several more times, leading me also thru His only True Word, showing me the clear discrepancies of that doctrine. So, sorry to burst your bubble, but thats already been tried and done to the BoM's failure in proof. And I had prayed and fasted for two days before that in my praying to know the Truth.
I cannot make any comment on your personal experience, or your real sincerity or real intent, as I do not know your mind or heart.
This formula has been proven by millions of people, including myself, with positive results. Other readers here will have to judge the truth of the book of Mormon for themselves.
You did not mention real intent here, were you willing to join the LDS church if you found out it was true? That is intent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Well, having the witness to such things, if believe is from God, is very clearly decieved by satan as a wolf in sheeps clothing.
That is up the individual person to make that judgement whether the answer I described is from God or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
...
Since God declares in His only True Word that His Word is profitable for proving and reproving doctrine, God is telling us to use His Word to compare other doctrines to It as wether of God or not.
I agree. That is why I am making an attempt (feeble though it may be) to not only tell you what we believe, but showing showing scriptures in the Bible to back it up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Also, to re-iterate on a much earlier point made, I also suggest the apparitions that appeared to joseph Smith were satan or demons. Why? They commanded him to go and use a method God had done away at the start of the New Covenant.
...
Read about how satan, as the serpent, twisted God's Word to decieve Eve into sinning. Then also read about satan's temptation of Christ. In both cases, satan showed he knew God's Word forward and backward, and used It in a twisted way to try and decieve Christ as well as Eve.
Thus the importance of a sincere investigator to read and ponder the Book of Mormon themself and pray and ask God if it is true.


Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Good to have you back MarvellousWork-
Unfortunately, the arrival of the holidays, compounded with an increased workload at my employer, force me to not be on as often as I would like.
You left a lot of info here for me to reply to, so be patient with me, and I will try to get to it all before my laptop bat'ry expires or my hands fall off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Point 1-I would suggest you take your own advice given anitarose and check the other forums you posted in about this subject. I clearly showed several examples to name a few, where there were identical events. Your answer there is needless to say, less than satisfactory.
I think I answered the examples given already (at least to my satisfaction.) Give more and I will talk more about them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Point 2- Well then, it's pretty clear you believe God's Word as falable, since God clearly declares when It was finished, that was it. God talks of many other things Christ had done, butr yet shows only the things written in this "Book"- (Bible), were written that others might believe.
We/I don't believe God's word is fallable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Never ever mentioning any other written Word that may come up later.
The Bible never ever mentions that any other written Word will not come up later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Point 3- How is it that now you agree since showed proof, when disagreed with me before? I would suggest we keep things much more honest in admitting we don't know, when thats the case.

Secondly, that proves right there the BoM contradicts God's Word. Particularly since God does not show in His Word there will be two "New Jerusalem's", only one.
It looks like this is about the New Jerusalem discussion. If you use the QUOTE button to add my quotes to your reply, I may be able to follow you better here, but I don't see any contradiction I have made on this subject.
We believe that a New Jerusalem will be built in the Americas. The "old" Jerusalem, when rebuild/renewed, we don't call "New", since it was in a time of old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Point 4- Well, the same goes for me too, when discussing points with people who aren't being honest about info. But, the people I mentioned left the LDS Church after meeting the True and Living God thru the True Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
I am not sure about this one. Restate and quote, and I probably give a rational reply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Point 5- Show Biblical proof where God declares He has other writings His children are to follow.
See my notes above. Show biblical proof that says God will never speak to man again, by written word or by calling Apostles and Prophets. The Bible never refers to itself as a whole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Point 6- I suggest you read the story of the Richman and Lazarus over again. There is no proof the richman could recieve Salvation there.
You are right. Since this was before Christ had died and preached to the dead in prison, there was a great gulf between the wicked and the righteous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Notice Abraham tells him its too late and that people must accept the Truth or not while alive, not after physical death,
Actually, Abraham says:
Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

After Christ preached to the dead, the gulf was bridged, so that they which would pass from paradise to darkness could, and they pass to paradise that would come from darkness.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
...
Point 7- So, your saying then Jesus is a liar when declares to Jews- "Be baptized for the remission of sins and recieve the Gift of the Holy Spirit". That they must be water baptized first?
We take the word "baptized" to mean immersed in water, which is the meaning of the greek word here.
They (Jews) must be water baptized first, as must everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Secondly- Sorry pal, you missed that one. Remember, Nicodemus was a Jewish religious Leader. Of course Jesus would state the rebirth process the same for him.
So, here is a Jewish leader being told by Jesus Christ he must be baptized (by water).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Point 8- Well, I would suggest you read alittle further thru Scripture at that reference. God is not dealing with spirits of the dead, but live people of Isreal. Rom. 10:18-21.
I would suggest that the process of Faith in Christ, repentance of sins, baptism by immersion, and the reception of the Holy Ghost must be followed by all people, living and dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando

I agree with the Scriptures being of God, but not with misinterpretation of them by people.
Me too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
...
When Jesus descended to Paradise, you can be sure He told Old Test believers who He was, what was happening and what their near future would be right after Ressurrection.
I agree. You seem to imply that OT believers never heard the name of Christ, even though they were righteous to the best that they knew, and here was their chance to hear and believe.
Don't assume, however, that after the atonement, everyone knew of Christ.
Most people on the earth have not heard of Christ, even though they may strive every day to do what is right as far as they know it.
The Latter-day Saints believe that baptism is required for everyone who ever has lived, who now lives, and who will ever live on the earth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
... afraid your mistaken about the lost souls in prison being of those back in Noah's Day being preached to in Hell for repentance. Why?

You forget God wiped out all but 8 people- Noah's family, from the earth, because God declares of man- Gen. 6:5-6- And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

You can be assured, God would never ever give people like that a chance to come into Heaven.
Probably not for many of them, but I suppose that if God can take a totally selfish and rebellions person and help to see their error, they can repent. We believe that people are judged according to their works while in the flesh. See 1 Peter 4:6.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
... Yet, while there, He preached to the Children of God who were not yet saved, but only covered of thier sin by following God's sacrifice ordinances.
Again, this goes back to the discussion above that not all people on earth in OT times were wicked, except for Israel who practiced these temple sacrifices. Certainly many were. I would imagine that many were as good as they know how to be, even though they were born into some nation far removed from Israel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Jesus Christ never preached to unsaved souls who did not accept God's ordinances of animal sacrifices.
Many did not know of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
...

So, why would Christ minister to the unsaved people who were already in Hell for thier unbelief back when alive, and made thier final choice then?
To those who made their final choice, there seems no way out. They chose their own path. I am submitting that many did the best they can with what they had, and that God provides them with the chance to accept the gospel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
..

Point 11- Where do you get "geneology work" out of that Scripture? Its states that fathers and sons will come back to getting along with each other. Notice the description- ("Turn the heart"). Thats refering to a change in countenance towards each other.
Certainly that is part of it. My heart is turned to my great-grandmother who struggled as a single mother at the turn of the century, and to her son who grew up in an orphanage eating orange peels, and never had the chance to go to school. I love these people as I love my own parents who brought me up. My heart is turned toward them and their welfare, as well as toward my own parents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Well, I guess then, you don't believe the only True Word of God about it being appointed unto all men once to die, is that right? Particularly when Elijah and Elisha were the only two people ever taken by God alive to Heaven and not back to earth yet to die.
Enoch was taken to heaven also. I don't see where Elisha was, unless I am missing a scripture somewhere. It looks like Moses was translated also, since he appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration.
I think that this scripture is general in sense, since we believe it is possible for a person to be translated before death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando

...
Point 12- Your reference to that belief coming from a modern day prophet is not acceptable before God, when not inline and confirmed by His one and only True Word- Bible. Thus, it holds no basis of truth for me either.
I have talked about the "one and only word of God" idea before in this post and others. We believe that the Bible is not the only word of God.
We have also talked about modern prophets in this post.


Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Well, as I recall, those Mormon Plates, were supposedly taken up to Heaven in JS's site along with several other witnesses. ...
Thus, I cannot accept such things as proof of confirmation. As said before, that must come from God's Word.
You cannot accept an answer from God as proof?
Sorry, then. You will know someday that it is true.


Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSentMe
The "Kinderhook Plates" a group of eight metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a "translation" of them. He never completed the translation, but he identified them as an ancient record, and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had copied the characters from a Chinese tea box.
Three words: "Not an Issue."
There is a good and unbiased wikipedia article about the KP's.
Basically, there is no evidence that Joseph Smith translated any of them. William Clayton, an associate of Joseph Smith, said in his journal that Joseph started to translate some of them, and that they belonged to a descendant of the Egyptians. Parley Pratt, another associate, stated that the plates had been found, and that they contain Jaredite writings. There are other inconsistencies as well, but besides the initial contact the forgers had with Joseph Smith, they left with their plates to sell them elsewhere. If Joseph thought they were of spiritual value, he would have purchased them as he did with the book of Abraham manuscripts, and the forgers would be glad to sell them. Instead they were taken somewhere else to be sold.


Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSentMe
Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived. A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confess that the evidence tended to show that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient record, but concocted by Joseph Smith himself, based on ideas he had read in the earlier book.
Wow. Read the book yourself and see. (I think there is a copy online you can read somewhere.) View of the Hebrews contains very little similarity to the book of Mormon, except that belief that the Native Americans are descended from ancient Israel. The B H Roberts article you refer to notes similarities, but there is no concession or confession that Roberts believed the Book of Mormon to be a concoction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSentMe

The secret temple ritual (the "endowment") was introduced by Smith in May, 1842, just two months after he had been initiated into Freemasonry. The LDS temple ritual closely resembles the Masonic ritual of that day. Smith explained that the Masons had corrupted the ancient (God-given) ritual by changing it and removing parts of it, and that he was restoring it to its "pure" and "original" (and complete) form, as revealed to him by God. In the 150 years since, the LDS church has made many fundamental changes in the "pure and original" ritual as "restored" by Smith, mostly by removing major parts of it.
There have been some changes of late, as I have noted before. The origin of the FM ritual I have also discussed previously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSentMe

The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1838. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The Grammar has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up.
The book of Abraham is one of the strongest evidences of the reality of Joseph Smith's prophetic calling if you take the time to read it. Since you quote "by his own hand," it looks like you are referring to the book of the same name. Its an OK book, but very weak scholarly. It attempts to destroy the forest of proof of the Book of Abraham by hacking at a few trees. There is no concise treatment of more than a handful of elements of this great book of scripture. Read the Book of Abraham and see!


Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Documentations claim Joseph Smith was also quite illiterate, since having only went to school to an 8th grade level. The problem?

I suggest Joseph Smith had full grammer school education, for the fact other documentations prove he lived at a time where there were already 1- Some of the highest numbers of youth completing grammer school education. 2- There is documentations to prove the Eastern part of the US had advanced considerably, noting the numbers of grammer schools along with much higher numbers of colleges or universities as some call them in that part of the US.

So, I would suggest the claim JS was so illiterate is false, knowing these facts.
I would like to see some of the documentation you quote here.
The Church does not claim that Joseph Smith was illiterate, else how could he read the Bible in James 1:5?
Joseph's prophetic calling is the real question here, not his reading proficiency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Also, the fact so many events of God's only true Word were copied by the charactors of the BoM proves to me, JS sat down with pencil and paper and a Bible, then wrote out an incredible fiction writing that closely resembles God's Word to make it more palitable for people to believe it was of God, even tho clearly not.
Having read the Bible and the Book of Mormon many times each, I just don't see it. List them out and I can talk more about them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando

Not to mention MSMe's reference given to the Egyptian language with JS proves the pyramids supposedly built by Mormon descendants on North America is false by info shared, as well as DNA testing of chemical stains found on these "flat top" pyramids, proving to be both animal and human blood, showing the Egyptian rituals of animal and human sacrificing to thier false gods, on these altar type pyramids well noted as practiced by the Aztec and Mayan Indian tribes of Egyptian descendants, who are clearly documented as the early human descendants who one, came across from the bearing sea, while the other came across at the southern tip of South America.

But, even if the pyramids were proved to be built by Mormon descendants, I wouldn't follow that religion, as shown above, they sacrificed animals and humans alike. Definitely not of God.
There seems to be some confusion here. There were no "Mormon descendants" living in ancient America. We believe they were descendants of Israelite tribes led here by God.

Its pretty plain in the Book of Mormon that the people departed from the Gospel that Christ had taught them by about 450AD. There is even a record in the Book of Mormon of apostate peoples turning from God and sacrificing their captured enemies.

Your assertion that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the same religion as the Mayans or Aztecs is false.


Posted by: Rachel R

This comment is on the Mormon faith being the same as the Mayans or Aztecs.

All other faiths are basically the same.

All of these faiths have the same over-arching themes.

Why? Because Satan is NOT a creator.

He is only a copier and a thief.

His groups are all based on the temptation of Jesus.

His three proposals to Jesus exposed what he wants to happen.

He wants people to use magic to meet their needs, he wants them to do impossible things to test God, and he wants them to bow down and worship him (Satan).

These are built into all the false religions.

He designs false faiths to distract people so they will miss the truth.

He tries to gather worship to himself and to make people destroy themselves through sacrifice to him, and to other fallen one's who hold dominion over those area's of the earth.

When I see the horrible art of the people groups I wonder if these are images of the principalities and powers that hold their countries captive.

Do they have visions of them and recreate them for worship?

People are already 'lost', all the enemy has to do is distract them so that they never believe in the one true God.

Darkness has to give way to light.

Let's continue to shine the light on false beliefs.

Rachel R




Posted by: MarkSentMe

Just as there are false prophets, there are false gods and a false jesus- all 3 are true about the "One True Church".
The Bible contains maps of cities which existed 2000 years ago, many which still stand today. The BoM contains no maps of any city mentioned, supposedly sprawling prosperous cities.

Joseph Smith's permission to enter heaven with church recommends, tithing by coersion, fasting and then tithing your food money, secret handshakes, coded messages, and all the other smoke and mirrors are a sure ticket, not to heaven, my friend, but eternally separated from God.
"'My Father has many mansions'" a dear misguided missionary told me- yes, son, He does, but they are ALL IN THE SAME NEIGHBORHOOD and we all pre-qualify!! but not everyone accepts the FREE key, they think they have to earn it.

We can't check Joseph Smith's work on his translation of the Book of Mormon from "Reformed Egyptian" into English, because he claimed that the "angel" Moroni took the Gold Plates back to Heaven. But we can check his work on the Book of Abraham, because we have the original papyrus and his symbol for symbol translation. We also have Joseph Smith's interpretation of the Egyptian "facsimiles" recorded in the Book of Abraham.
The question is: Did he get one word right? NO! Is the name Abraham mention ANYWHERE in the papyrus? NO! Is the papyrus dated to the time of Abraham (since Joseph Smith said that it was written by the very hand of Abraham)? NO! (1500 years too young!)
Well then, what was the papyrus? It was a pagan funeral text! In more modern terms, a type of death certificate!
But what about the facsimiles, where he said it was Pharaoh and Abraham and a servant... etc., did he get any of that right? NO! They are all Egyptian gods and goddesses! He didn't even determine their sex correctly. Where he said they were male, they were actually female, and visa versa.

Joseph Smith was a false prophet, who used people for sordid gain! He was a fleshly man who sought to fulfill his desires for money, power, and sex. The evidence proves that Mormonism was inspired by Joseph Smith's wild imagination rather than inspired by God. Therefore, if you can't trust Joseph Smith, you can't trust any of his writings. All the clues or signs that you would look for (if Smith was genuine) are missing. And all the attributes of a con man, are unfortunately found at every turn. But his followers say, "Hey, nobody's perfect!" But is that God's standard, or man's? God said in Deuteronomy 18:20 and 13:1 that if a man gives forth a revelation or a prophecy and it doesn't come to pass, you are to consider him to be a false prophet, and you are not to listen to a word he has to say!


Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSentMe
...
The Bible contains maps of cities which existed 2000 years ago, many which still stand today. The BoM contains no maps of any city mentioned, supposedly sprawling prosperous cities.
As I have stated before, the truth of the Book of Mormon is found not in physical proof, but in the individual person gaining a witness from God that it is true. Imagine that! God will tell you that it is true! Yes, physical evidence exists that places and names in the Bible existed (BofM too), but the truthfulness of the Gospel, and the reality of Christ as God's Son exists not as physical evidence, but as a witness to the individual seeker from God, as in Matthew 16:13-17.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSentMe
...
We can't check Joseph Smith's work on his translation of the Book of Mormon from "Reformed Egyptian" into English, because he claimed that the "angel" Moroni took the Gold Plates back to Heaven. But we can check his work on the Book of Abraham, ...
The alleged problems with the Book of Abraham are known issues that have rational explanations, even to historians and Egyptologists that don't necessarily believe it to be an inspired work. They are numerous and don't bear an explanation here. There is a web site that has some info, boap dot org.

I don't want to spend my time here arguing about petty mud slinging. If you have a real question that begs a reasonable response, please let me know. Thanks.


Posted by: Christian Commando

Marvellous Work-

Point 1- There was an adult man who wrote a book of the events that happened to Joseph Smith, being told by JS what he'd witnessed. What this man also included in his book was about the route JS and others took to have the plates and other arifacts found, checked for authenticity.

At one point in there, the man spoke of how low a grade JS had completed in school and that JS was basically illiterate, even tho could interprete the plates with the use of the no longer used in the Christian era Urim and Thumim stones.

Check the sites of Mormons and look for that book. It is supposed to help back up JS's story of the production of the BoM.

Point 2- General list of events copied from God's Word-

A- Moses leads the Isrealites across the River Jordan, to help them get to Canaan.

AA- Lehi is claimed to have taken his group across the ocean to get to thier "promised land".

B- God led Moses by a pillar of fire at nite.

BB- Lehi's group was led by a pillar or "Diadem" if recall name correctly.

C- Jesus with Disciples on a ship calms a storm.

CC- Lehi calms a storm thru prayer while they cross the ocean.

Want more, theres lots more-

Point 3- Wouldn't you call arriving at North America as being ancient compared to today? I would. That was my point. I was told by Elders of your religion that those ancient peoples- (Lehi and company), built those pyramids here on North and South Americas.

But, since they show clear Egyptian design and cryptics, they could not have been of Lehi and companie's backround, since Lehi was from the Isreali area.

Point 4-By using the BoM as proof of Apostated peoples of the Lehi group goes to prove we cannot trust it, since is not found in God's Word anywhere relating to that.

Particularly knowing it was of Aztec and Mayan design, more ancient and less civilized than Lehi's group.

Point 5- If thats the impression you got from my earlier post, you apparently read it wrong my friend. I shared info gained thru your own religions Elders who came to visit and discuss the subject. It was by thier admission, not mine.

My assumption that was made, refers to, if those pyramids """were""" built by Mormon ancestors of Lehi and company, they certainly were not God guided people to sacrifice as mentioned.

As to your responces to MarkSentMe's questions-

Point 1- Why is it you never responded to my showing I had prayed and fasted seeking God's understanding of the validity of the BoM and God took me back thru it to show it's discrepancies to me?

Yes, God's Word is to be taken by faith. but, over the centuries, God has helped that faith in Christians, by giving us physical evidence to go on as well. But, you have never shown any clear ties, outside of the copied events of the BoM to the Bible which only proves it is a false doctrine.

I had prayed you would've been better prepared as a researcher to have taken on such a task as you started here, so as to provide better clarity to the subject you chose to try and defend.

Thank you for your time.


Posted by: anitarose

and again I say that it was proven that Joseph Smith was a pathological liar....and that he was mentally unbalanced as well....why else would he take Freemasonry rites and incorporate them into a "belief in another testament of Jesus Christ"?

Sorry, I reiterate my original statement: if you have to add or subtract from the Scriptures, or from the original teachings of Jesus, you are involved in a cult.

"Not an Issue"? This is what you folks believe!!!! How can it not be an issue??? Oh, and explain the planet Kolon as well there, MW....you all believe you're going to go to this planet, have numerous wives and endless celestial sex, right? Or is that only Warren Jeff's interpretation of the BoM?

You love to just dance around the questions there, MW. Come out and answer the questions, for once, please!!!

Anita


Posted by: MarkSentMe

OK...here's some questions which you have yet to answer:

ARE YOU SAVED?

DO YOU TRUST JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR LORD AND SAVIOUR?

IF YOU WERE TO DIE RIGHT NOW, WHERE WOULD YOU GO?


Posted by: MarvellousWork

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Marvellous Work-

Point 1- There was an adult man who wrote a book of the events that happened to Joseph Smith, being told by JS what he'd witnessed. What this man also included in his book was about the route JS and others took to have the plates and other arifacts found, checked for authenticity.

At one point in there, the man spoke of how low a grade JS had completed in school and that JS was basically illiterate, even tho could interprete the plates with the use of the no longer used in the Christian era Urim and Thumim stones.

Check the sites of Mormons and look for that book. It is supposed to help back up JS's story of the production of the BoM.
I'm not sure which book. I will check in my bookshelf. I think "a mervellous work and a wonder" might be the one, but will take a look.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Point 2- General list of events copied from God's Word-

A- Moses leads the Isrealites across the River Jordan, to help them get to Canaan.

AA- Lehi is claimed to have taken his group across the ocean to get to thier "promised land".

B- God led Moses by a pillar of fire at nite.

BB- Lehi's group was led by a pillar or "Diadem" if recall name correctly.
Although Lehi sees a pillar of fire in vision when he first receives his prophetic calling, there is no other pillar of fire in the BofM. Nothing called Diadem either. You may be referring to an object Lehi received called "Liahona" that was similar in function to a compass which helped them find their way. No pillar of fire though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
C- Jesus with Disciples on a ship calms a storm.

CC- Lehi calms a storm thru prayer while they cross the ocean.
Nephi asks the Lord for the storm to abate, and it does. Much like if your car won't start on a cold morning, and you pray for it to start so you are not late to work, and then it starts. The miracle done here was done by God, not a person.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Want more, theres lots more-
I'm sure you can find more, but these don't automatically discredit the BofM, just as miracles told in the New Testament don't discredit it. We believe that wherever there are people who believe in Christ, there will be miracles done in His name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Point 3- Wouldn't you call arriving at North America as being ancient compared to today? I would. That was my point. I was told by Elders of your religion that those ancient peoples- (Lehi and company), built those pyramids here on North and South Americas.
Maybe a timeline would help here. Lehi's group arrives in the Americas ~590 BC. They lived through periods of wickedness and righteousness until about 34 or 35 AD when they were visited by Jesus Christ. After this visitation, they lived in peace for about 400 years, then fell again into wickedness and many were destroyed in wars. The record of the people up to this time was condensed by Mormon and Moroni, then hid. The people continued to live until Columbus arrived 1492-ish, and continue today.
Yes, the Lehite people and their ancestors made the ancient buildings in N and S America.
Yes, they had periods of righteousness between 590BC - 400AD when they worshipped God and were taught by Prophets, and by Jesus Christ Himself. After that time they all fell into darkness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
But, since they show clear Egyptian design and cryptics, they could not have been of Lehi and companie's backround, since Lehi was from the Isreali area.
It is not surprising to me to see Egyptian influence in the artifacts. Israel is close to Egypt. Isaiah in the OT warns Israel many times not to make alliances with Egypt, but they do anyway. Knowledge of Egyptian lauguage, culture, art, etc was known by ancient Israel, and known by Lehi and company when they departed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
Point 4-By using the BoM as proof of Apostated peoples of the Lehi group goes to prove we cannot trust it, since is not found in God's Word anywhere relating to that.

Particularly knowing it was of Aztec and Mayan design, more ancient and less civilized than Lehi's group.

Point 5- If thats the impression you got from my earlier post, you apparently read it wrong my friend. I shared info gained thru your own religions Elders who came to visit and discuss the subject. It was by thier admission, not mine.

My assumption that was made, refers to, if those pyramids """were""" built by Mormon ancestors of Lehi and company, they certainly were not God guided people to sacrifice as mentioned.
Based on the timeline I mentioned above, and the evidence of human sacrifice on ancient American pyramids, it would be impossible to determine when the sacrifices were made. My guess is that it was done after 400AD and after their apostasy. If before, then perhaps done by a wicked group.
Ancient Israel has been known to make human, and often children, sacrifices. To use this fact to discount any writings Israel may have made would be foolish. Same goes for the Book of Mormon. By reading the Book of Mormon, it doesn't claim to be the religious writings of some apostate group making human sacrifices, but by a group of people who knew and worshipped Christ, and were led by prophesy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Commando
As to your responces to MarkSentMe's questions-

Point 1- Why is it you never responded to my showing I had prayed and fasted seeking God's understanding of the validity of the BoM and God took me back thru it to show it's discrepancies to me?
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