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I have a question about speaking in tongues.
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Posted by: prayerwarrior88888888
I just downloaded a booklet from a site that gave me reason to doubt some practices I was taught.
What does God say about speaking in tongues? Is it demonic?
For years I have thought it was the Holy Spirit language.
I would appreciate any input.
Blessings
Diney
Posted by: MamaCat
Heaven's NO, it is NOT demonic! It's a gift from God, it's evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it's powerful prayer language and the devil hates it. Don't let anyone make you doubt what God's Word says!
Surely Jerry has a teaching on it somewhere here ???
Posted by: diamondcreates
PLEASE DON'T THINK OF THIS AS SILLY, BUT WHEN I WAS YOUNGER AN ELDER OF MY GRANDMOTHER'S CHURCH TOLD ME THAT IF YOU DON'T SPEAK IN TONGUES -- YOU DON'T HAVE A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. THE MORE YOU SPEAK IN TONGUES THE CLOSER YOUR RELATIONSHIP IS WITH GOD. BASICALLY SAYING IF YOU SPEAK IN TONGUES THAT IS GOD'S HOTLINE TO ANSWER JUST YOU. I HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED WHEN I WAS YOUNG AND I HAVEN'T 'SPOKEN' IN TONGUES BUT I DO PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME WITH EVEN SMALL BLESSINGS. (CLOSER PARKING SPACE, ETC)
BE BLESS FAMILY OF GOD. FOR HE IS WORTHY THROUGH ALL THINGS.
Posted by: MarkSentMe
My friend explained it to me like this:
Suppose you went to China and you were never taught to speak Chinese. But then all of a sudden you could speak and understand Chinese and you could share the Gospel with Chinese people. That she said was speaking in tongues.
That stuff I hear people say that is supposedly speaking in tongues, to me is nothing but babbling. I'm sorry if this offends people but it just sounds like a bunch of garbled gibberish and I do not believe that God speaks that language, as I heard Him speak to me on several occasions- loud and clear- in English. If I was Russian, He would speak Russian.
Posted by: JG
The Baptism in the Holy Spirit: By Kenneth Hagin.This is the first of what I hope will be many article on the Holy Spirit and Tongues. I hope you enjoy them.
Four passages where people received:
1.Acts2:1-11
2.Acts8:5-17
3.Acts10:44-48
4.Acts19:1-6
Another important passage:
ICorinthians14:1-19
Now, let's get started!
What Does The Bible Say About the Baptism in the Holy Spirit?
The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a gift. It is something that God has provided for us to help us in our walk here on Earth... and actually, it is someone Who has been sent here to be with us! It's not something someone made up a few years or decades ago to get people excited or make them fall down on the ground or something strange like that. In fact, Jesus Himself spoke of it! In Acts1:4-5, Jesus was speaking to His disciples after His resurrection from the dead, and He said that God the Father was about to give them a gift that Jesus had already mentioned to them (you can read one instance that Jesus told them about this gift in John14:16-17). Jesus called the "gift" He was speaking of being "baptized with the Holy Spirit."
You might think that Jesus was speaking of salvation when He said that. But He wasn't! For one thing, Romans10:9-10 says that salvation happens when you believe in Jesus and say so with your mouth. These disciples had already believed in Jesus! Their salvation was already in place. Also notice that in Acts19:1-2, Paul indicated that the people he was talking to had already believed, but asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit. If the baptism that Jesus had spoken of was salvation, then Paul's question would have been completely redundant!
One thing that always seemed to accompany the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is something called "speaking in tongues". The word "tongues" here means "languages"; you might say that at the United Nations Building in New York City, people of many races and "tongues" gather to discuss matters of international importance. That's what "tongues" means in this case, not that the person talking has two tongues in his mouth or anything else strange like that. :-> In fact, if you take a look at Acts2:1-4, you will find out that those very same people Jesus was talking to in the verse we read earlier from Acts chapter 1 started "speaking in tongues" as soon as they received the gift Jesus had spoken of! And we know also that the early Christians considered speaking in tongues a sign that an individual had received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit... in Acts10:44-46 it says that some Christians who visited a man named Cornelius knew that Cornelius's family had received the gift because the family members spoke in tongues. So we can safely say that when you speak in tongues, you will know that you really have received the gift Jesus spoke of, and have been baptized in the Holy Spirit!
A friend of mine used to deny that the "tongues" spoken of so many times in Acts and the rest of the New Testament were anything but an "earthly, ethnic language". He had gotten this idea by reading part of Acts chapter 2 and looking up the word "tongues" in a dictionary that defines the words from your Bible, which is written in English or whatever language you speak, by the definitions they had in the language the Bible was written in... Greek. Part of the definiton of the word translated "tongues" contained the phrase, "earthly, ethnic language", so since that dictionary said it he assumed that it was the case. But at the time the Bible was written, speaking in tongues was a very new thing... how could they expect to make up a word that meant "Heavenly languages from God that nobody else understands", and use it and expect anyone to understand what they meant? Instead they just used their word for "languages", and that was that. He also looked at Acts2:5-11 and assumed that the people who were speaking in tongues were speaking in the languages of all of the people who heard them. I think this is very unlikely. We can assume from a verse in the chapter before (Acts1:15) that there were probably about 120 people there when the Baptism in the Holy Spirit was given to them. Now, when the people said they heard them speaking in "their own tongues" they used the word my friend had looked up, which can be pronounced "dialektos". We get the English word "dialect" from that term. When we say "dialect", we don't mean a language exactly... we mean a specific way of using a specific language. People who live in the northern part of Germany speak German, and so do people who live in the southern part, but they speak slightly different dialects of German. The people in Acts chapter 2, who were from "every nation under heaven" (verse 5) all heard them speaking, not only in the language they spoke, but in their own specific dialect of that language! I'm sure it is possible that at the time of that event, there were less than 120 dialects spoken in the entire known world, since much of the world was unknown to them at the time, but I suspect that there were more than that. So, how could only 120 people be speaking in more than 120 dialects at the same time? They couldn't! I believe that the miracle that happened that day was in the hearing, not in the speaking. The fact that the people "heard them speaking" in earthly languages does not prove that they were actually speaking in those languages! Notice that ICorinthians14:2 says that when someone speaks in tongues, nobody understands him but God.
(Note: There have been incidents where someone who was "speaking in tongues" was heard by someone else in the room speaking in a language the listener knew but the speaker did not. I would classify this as an unusual form of prophecy, but not as speaking in tongues... though in many ways it is very similar to tongues.)
What Are These "Tongues" For?
So, if this language is something that nobody can understand anyway, what good is it? There are three very important reasons why you should speak in tongues:
1. It is a prayer and praise language.
ICorinthians14:2 says that when you speak in tongues, you are speaking directly to God. My pastor once made the analogy of an adult at home all day with a little kid who is just learning to speak. Hearing "da-da" and "ma-ma" and maybe, "coo-kie" <G> is cute for a while, but after a few hours of that, you're ready for some adult conversation! That's the way it is with God, to an extent; we are not and will never be at His level of understanding, but when we let the Holy Spirit pray to Him through us, we can talk to Him on His level. (God still desires us to talk to Him in language we understand, of course!) Another advantage of praying that way is that it goes directly to God without ever being interrupted or corrupted by what we think is right or best. Wouldn't it be great to always be able to pray God's perfect will, every time, and never wonder if we're saying the right thing or using the right words? Well, this is how we can do that! Later on in the chapter, verses 16-17 indicate that it is possible to praise and thank God in tongues.
2. It edifies you (it builds you up).
ICorinthians14:4 says that when you speak in tongues, you are edifying yourself. Judeverse20 says roughly the same thing in different words: the words translated "edify" in First Corinthians and "build yourself up" in Jude are the same thing. "Edify" is a big word that means make someone stronger. When you pray in tongues, God is making you stronger! See why I said at the beginning that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is so important? Whenever you feel weak, like you can't do what you know God wants you to do, you can pray in tongues and you will become stronger!
3. It helps you pray when you don't know how to.
Sometimes something happens, and I know it's bad and I should pray about it, but I maybe don't know all of the details of what is happening, or maybe my emotions are too involved for me to pray fairly about the situation. (For example, if I thought someone was hurting a loved one somehow, I might want to pray for that person to die and leave my family alone! That's not what God wants, though.) When that happens, I can pray about it in tongues, and I know that the Holy Spirit will pray exactly the right things through me. Romans8:26 talks about this... praying about things that "words cannot express", or things that we as the people who are praying don't understand well enough to say. When it says the Holy Spirit "helps" us, it means that if you look at prayer as pulling on a rope, like a tug-of-war against the problem, then you're tugging, and the Holy Spirit is right behind you, tugging away with you. How can you lose? Also notice that ICorinthians14:14 says that when you are praying in tongues, your spirit is praying, but your mind doesn't understand what you are saying.
There are a number of other reasons why you would want to speak in tongues: for example, speaking in tongues reminds us that God is there with us. He is right beside us and within us, taking care of us. It helps us to rise above the sinfulness of the fallen world we live in and remember to live like Jesus would be living if He were still here in the flesh. But if all you ever got out of tongues is a better way to praise and talk to God, wouldn't that be enough?
How Do I Receive?
It seems like almost every time we read in the book of Acts about someone receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, they receive it a different way. In Acts8:18 and Acts19:6, people received the Holy Spirit by having hands laid on them. But in Acts2:1-4, nothing like that happened... they were just all in the same place! It doesn't even say they were praying, though I suspect that maybe they were having a worship service of some kind. Unfortunately, you and I are not together in the same place, and I can't lay hands on you through your computer screen either. But you do meet the conditions under which Cornelius's family received in Acts10:44... all they did was hear Peter preaching the Word of God! I don't think that there is a set way that people are supposed to receive the Holy Spirit; I think that if you want Him, he will come for you. But you've read the Word of God today, so you qualify according to the Bible to receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit!
It's easy to read the verses and know that people way back in the Bible got the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues, but it's also easy to wonder if it's something that God wants every Christian to do, or only the ones in the Bible verses. Well, Acts2:38-39 is the end of the message that Peter spoke to that crowd of people from "every nation under heaven." Peter said in those verses that the gift of the Holy Spirit was for those people right there, for their children, for everyone who was far off, and for everyone that the Lord would call. I know I'm pretty far away from Jerusalem, and you probably are too... but even if you're sitting in Jerusalem right now, you're pretty far off in time from when Peter spoke those words nearly 2000 years ago! And if you've read this far, it's because you are interested... and if you're interested, it's because the Lord is calling you. You fit two out of four... not bad! God wants you to have the Holy Spirit! Do notice, however, that before those people received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, they had to receive Jesus as their savior.
Receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a very easy thing. In fact, you may laugh at how simple it is to receive, and wonder why I put you through all these pages of scriptures just for that! I wrote all that detail so that you would understand what is happening and won't be scared when it does happen, because it can seem pretty strange if you don't know what to expect! I also want you to have a clear understanding of exactly what it is, in case someone asks you to explain it or even challenges you, trying to tell you it's not real or not in the Bible. You know now that it is clearly spelled out in the Bible; you know where to find it and why you do it. So now on to the doing.
You saw already that in one place, all the people did was hear the Word of God, and immediately they received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit! That may have happened to you as well while you were reading this... God is capable of working that way! But for most of us, it takes a little bit more than that... sometimes it's good to just pray and ask. We already know God wants us to have it, so we know we can pray for it and we'll be praying in God's perfect will! Read this prayer out loud, or if you like, make up your own prayer, asking God to baptize you in the Holy Spirit:
Lord, I want to thank you for what You have done in my life already. You saved me from eternal Hell, and I thank You for that. Today, though, I've read that You have another gift for me called the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. And I really need that power in my life! Father, please baptize me in the Holy Spirit, and let me start to pray in tongues right now!
Now comes the strange part. If you're not already speaking in tongues, there's a reason... you haven't opened your mouth yet! In Luke11:11-13 Jesus said that God wouldn't give you something bad when you ask for something good. Remember back in the Garden of Eden... the serpent was the Devil! When you ask for the Holy Spirit, you're not going to receive the Devil and be possessed. You're not going to receive a Big Fat Nothing either, like a rock when you ask for a loaf of bread. When you ask God for the Holy Spirit, you get the Holy Spirit! Acts2:4 says that they began to speak in tongues! Acts19:6 says that people heard them speaking in tongues! In ICorinthians14:18, Paul said that he spoke in tongues all the time! Do you see what I'm trying to say? The Holy Spirit guides you by supplying the words, but you are the one who has to speak. Don't speak in a language you know; open your mouth and begin to say the words the Holy Spirit lays on your heart. It might feel foolish at first, and it definitely is going to sound like nonsense... but remember that you are not supposed to understand it. God is!
You know it's in the Bible. You know that it's something you need, and you know that God wants you to have it. You've prayed for it, and though I didn't type it up for you to read, I've prayed for you too. Now it's time to receive! Open your mouth, move your lips, and speak in tongues!
Posted by: JG
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Originally Posted by MarkSentMe
My friend explained it to me like this:
Suppose you went to China and you were never taught to speak Chinese. But then all of a sudden you could speak and understand Chinese and you could share the Gospel with Chinese people. That she said was speaking in tongues.
That stuff I hear people say that is supposedly speaking in tongues, to me is nothing but babbling. I'm sorry if this offends people but it just sounds like a bunch of garbled gibberish and I do not believe that God speaks that language, as I heard Him speak to me on several occasions- loud and clear- in English. If I was Russian, He would speak Russian.
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Oh how sad I am to see so many judge what they do not know.
I was teaching at a Masters Commission a few years back.
They had about 30 students.
We went to a Chinese restaurant. The Holy Spirit overwhelmed me because he wanted me to speak to the person putting the food up. I don't know Chinese. The Holy Spirit started speaking in Chinese through me, right in front to everyone in the restaurant.
To make a very long story short, almost all the workers in the back came out and the Holy Spirit led them to the Lord right in front of the students and everyone in the restaurant. This conversation took about 30 minutes. Needless to say all of us were overwhelmed by the love and power of the Holy Spirits that day. It is one I will never forget. Most of those students are in full time ministry today.
This also happened in Germany to eight people riding in a bus. All of a sudden I could speak German. I had the wonderful grace to lead them to the Lord also. The end fruit of that is I also got German well enough from the Holy Spirit that the university gave me credit for two years of German on my transcript. I never went to a German class.
Now as far as this you said: "babbling. I'm sorry if this offends people but it just sounds like a bunch of garbled gibberish "
I am so sorry you have never experienced the wonderful times of praise and worship when the Holy Spirit comes on you and lets you pray for hours or days. When the Glory fills the room so wonderfully it feels like you could just touch Him. I have had the wonderful experience of the Holy Spirit praying for one soul for days. I had no sleep but had need none because the Lord was doing it. The end result was the person the Holy Spirit was praying for came to my house, stood outside the door of the room I was praying in. When I was finished the person literally fell into the room crying and saying he did not know God loved him so much.
No one is mad at you my friend we just feel sorry for you because you have never touched the heart of God this way.
Mark 16 says it this way
15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
The only way you can refute this verse is by deleting it from you bible.
That is what almost everyone does until the Holy Spirit fills them.
Pastor Jerry
Posted by: JeriRose12
Thanks for the teaching Jerry.
The misunderstanding on this is sad. I work with someone who thinks it's demonic, but I told her I speak in tongues (so, praise the Lord, for giving me the boldness to speak up for The Holy Spirit).
I started praying in tongues at work today, and believe me, though I didn't know the language it was not gibberish. It had syntax and inflections not found in the English language -- sounds I don't use when speaking English. It sounded Oriental.
I have a great little book here called "They Speak With Other Tongues," by John L. Sherrill, a classic on this topic. He set out to research and disprove tongues, but found himself seeking to be filled with The Spirit and speak in tongues. Really great story, where he recounts the early seeking of The Spirit and the moves of the Spirit in giving people tongues in modern times (this was the 20th printing in 1975, so not so modern....) Anyway, I suggest anyone who wants to know more on this topic read this book.
You don't have to speak in tongues to be saved, but that is no reason not to seek God for everything He has for His children. There is something precious about this gift that is hard to explain to those who don't speak in tongues.
Of course, there are counterfiets out there. The devil counterfiets anything and everything he can.
~JeriRose~
In HIM in 2007
Posted by: Chris Logan
I had an awesome experience through speaking in tongues and in my prayer language!
a few years ago i had to have a test as i had been healed of a blood clot in my lungs and they wanted to see if my lungs looked ok. (yes, i had been healed!)
when i was coming out of the anthestic, the nurse by my side in the recovery room asked me what church i went to. i told her full gospel and i asked her why she asked and she said------"as you were coming out of the anthestic, you were praying in an unknown tongue!! WOW!!!
i was not in control of that but the holy spirit was for i was not in control of myself!! i have had close calls before with the medicine in sensitivity they use to put me asleep and evidently the lord used my mouth and voice to intercede for myself while i was coming out and awakened from the anthetisic!!
he may have had others praying for me as well at that time but that was an awesome experience i will never forget and even though i have never, ever doubted my prayer language before, i knew without a doubt the utmost importance of his using it in my life!
i have had more than one miracle occur in my life immediately after the lord has urged me to pray in my prayer language and in the holy spirit!!
the lord is awesome and this is one of the greatest blessings after salvation (which is the greatest of all) he has so blessed me with and the devil has no idea what i am praying about and anything the lord and i can put over him is wonderful and i am in full agreement with it!!
the lord loves us all and in no way am i superior over anyone whom does not pray in a prayer language but it saddens me for those whom do not know it is a gift from the lord and is so very rewarding and such a blessing. those whom do not know this are missing out on so much more the lord has for us as his children----i want all he has for me and want to always be open to allow his spirit to move freely within me! he is awesome, awesome, awesome!!!
Posted by: Christian Commando
Hi everyone-
Fact is, there are religions out there, who do not believe in these "Gifts" of God of the Holy Spirit or by the Holy Spirit. Invited to a Catholic Church one time, I was told by a friend the speaker was asked to come, as they were a Catholic, but had learned that the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is real and these other Gifts, are also real and available to believers as according to God.
But you'll find a variety of God's Word, per religion is not believed in, I would suggest from the studies of religions I've done, that they do this to keep themselves each seperated as a religion from each other.
Correct me if I am wrong Pastor Jerry, but I believe religion... in itself, is not of God. God gave us His Word to show us our sin and to help us learn how to avoid sinning. Yet, I suggest since God's Word, for the first nearly 300 years of Christianity was taught by all Christian Leaders believing the same beliefs of God's Word, it wasn't until during the 3rd century AD that the first Christian religion appeared.
According to historical documentations, not all believers at that time continued believing all the same beliefs of God originally taught, but decided to follow beliefs they were nfluenced, I suggest by satan, to believe.
We know there are total spiritualizing of Scripture, figuratizing of It, and symbolizing of It, as different forms of interpreting God's Word. The problem is tho, God supplies the proof we are to read and take His Word as literally written for what It means, unless He provides another understanding for It.
Not to mention, the Holy Spirit also provides the proof there is both a physical and Spiritual understanding of all of God's Word, of which the Spiritual, a natural man cannot understand, but only thru the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.
This is why, not only the Gifts of God, but also of the Holy Spirit are equally important to believe in and understand.
Thank you for this incredible lesson Pastor!!
God Bless!!
Posted by: JG
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Originally Posted by Christian Commando
According to historical documentations, not all believers at that time continued believing all the same beliefs of God originally taught, but decided to follow beliefs they were nfluenced, I suggest by satan, to believe.
This is why, not only the Gifts of God, but also of the Holy Spirit are equally important to believe in and understand.
Thank you for this incredible lesson Pastor!!
God Bless!!
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Dear Brian:
Because You said you like Christian History.
Here are some interesting quotes from our early church fathers.
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The Didache (Διδαχὴ, Koine Greek for "Teaching"[1]) is the common name of a brief early Christian treatise (c. 50–160), containing instructions for Christian communities. The text is possibly the first written catechism, with three main sections dealing with Christian lessons,
Didache says, "For the Father desireth that the gifts be given to all" and also describes prophets who speak "in the Spirit." ("Charismata" ERE, III, 371. See The Teaching of the Thrive Apostles, 1.5 & 11.7; ANF VII, 377 & 380.) This one document is dated 70ad
Please understand next to the bible this is one of the oldest Christian documents we have.
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Clement of Rome (died around 100ad) reminded the Corinthians that "a full outpouring of the Holy Spirit was upon you all." (Clement of Rome, First Epistle to the Corinthians, 2, ANF, I, 5)
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Ignatius: He also admonished Polycarp to pray so that he might "be wanting in nothing, and… abound in every gift." (Ignatius, Epistle to Polycarp, 2, ANF, I, 99.)
Ignatius wrote to the church at Smyrna: "Ignatius… to the Church of God the Father, and of the beloved Jesus Christ, which has through mercy obtained every kind of gift, which is filled with faith and love, and is deficient in no gift, most worthy of God, and adorned with holiness… Be ye strong, I pray, in the power of the Holy Ghost." (Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, superscription & 12, ANF I, 86 & 92.)
Irenaeus (A.D. 115 to 202) a pupil of Polycarp (A.D. 70-155), who was himself a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote: "in like manner do we also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms 'spiritual', they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit".
Irenaeus (d. c. 200) served his age as Bishop of Lyons. A student of Polycarp (who, in turn, had been a disciple of the Apostle John), he had spent his youth in Smyrna and later represented a significant link between the East and the West. His major work, Against Heresies, was an attack on Gnosticism with a defense of the Christian faith drawn from those theological and canonical traditions at his disposal. Irenaeus conspicuously associated tongues with the Last Days. Referring to the latter-day outpouring promised in Joel 2:28, 29, he wrote: "For God who did promise by the prophet that He would send His Spirit upon the whole human race, was He who did send." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, III, xii, 1, ANF, I, 430.)
Irenaeus went on to relate the events of Pentecost to his own experience: "In like manner, we do hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages " Those who exercised this gift of tongues were spiritual people who through their gift revealed "for the general benefit the hidden things of men" and declared "the mysteries of God" in the diverse, living languages of mankind. (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V, vi, 1, ANF, I, 531.) (The Charismatic Movement, 1975, Michael P. Hamilton, p 66)
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These are not from the bible but they give us a wonderful picture of how the early church saw the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Tongues was just as much a part of their lives as it is ours.
Notice also this is years after the last apostles died so those who believe all the gifts died with the apostiles are wrong.
My Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever
And ALL THE PROMISES OF GOD ARE YEA AND AMEN.
I pray you are blessed by this as much as I am
Pastor Jerry
Posted by: akabezalel
OOOooOOoOOooOoo... where did you get that Jerry? I have never even heard of this text! Where can I find it to read?
Posted by: Christian Commando
OOOOOOOOOhhhhhhh yes Pastor Jerry, hoho, thank you ever so much hehe, more to add to my historical records.
Forgive me for my inability to read all I had come across or did not find. That was wonderful. You see, I realize the Early Church was called "Catholic", which aloe means- (Universal). It was a Roman Catholic Church and a Roman Catholic man who had learned these "Gifts" were for all and not lost in thee Apostlic age.
Correct me if wrong here, but I never found any of the original Early Church Leaders called- "Roman Catholic", but that this group had started around the latter part of the 2nd century AD or the first half of the 3rd Century AD. Is that right?
This is why I related to the Roan Catholic religion in point, as it is different than the original Leaders of Christianity from the Apostles on, who were only called - "Catholic"- universal, as all shared the same Truths, only dfferent from thier cultural and other backrounds.
Thank you ever so much Pastor and God Bless!!
Posted by: JG
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Originally Posted by akabezalel
OOOooOOoOOooOoo... where did you get that Jerry? I have never even heard of this text! Where can I find it to read?
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I just knew someone would ask that
That is why I put the references at the end of the quotes
(Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V, vi, 1, ANF, I, 531.) (The Charismatic Movement, 1975, Michael P. Hamilton, p 66)
I even have the page numbers down.
You can order them or ask your library.
The whole collection is about $16,000.00
Love you guys
Pastor Jerry
Posted by: JG
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Originally Posted by Christian Commando
OOOOOOOOOhhhhhhh yes Pastor Jerry, hoho, thank you ever so much hehe, more to add to my historical records.
Correct me if wrong here, but I never found any of the original Early Church Leaders called- "Roman Catholic", but that this group had started around the latter part of the 2nd century AD or the first half of the 3rd Century AD. Is that right?
Thank you ever so much Pastor and God Bless!!
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There is no answer to your question.
Almost every Christian will trace their history to Jesus.
I could name about 10 denominations that make some kind of claim about coming form the first century church
Pastor Jerry
Posted by: Christian Commando
Yes Pastor, but, according to studies tho, I'd found all Christian religions have thier roots going back to Christ because they follow Biblical doctrine.
My point was more in the fact the Early Church did not teach a religious belief-(as in religion), but all taught the same doctrinal "way of life" God gave us in His Word to live daily.
You don't find that in all denominations seen today, because of thier diversity in beliefs of God's Word to show differences between them to keep them distinguished one from another.
Thus, "religions", in themselves, are not of God, being man concieved ways of interpreting God's Word, yet are based from God's Word, falling within the general Biblical peramiters set in centuries back, to seperate Christian from Cult religions.
Yet God is able to further His Word to the unsaved and helping His "Body of Christ" grow, thru them, even tho no longer are operating fully of one mind and body in full doctrinal beliefs- examples- One Christian religion does not believe in the "Gifts" of God or "special Gifts" given by the Holy Spirit, while another does. 2- Some religions still believe the 5 fold level of ministry- Apostles, preachers teachers, Bishops, etc, while others believe tis ended after the first Apostles were done.
3- Some believe man has a spirit body, while others believe our spirit- or soul is the "Breath of God" which returns to God at physical death, and so on.
Yet, they are all Christian religions, because they all teach the foundational Christian religious beliefs of Salvation, who God is and more from His Word, yet, in many other beliefs God teaches, they do not believe all the same.
According to research I'd done, this was why the Early Church Leaders had several major meetings back in the at least 3rd century AD in order to set Biblical peramiters for what is classified as Christian and that which is not, for this division starting to appear, of people coming out with other beliefs rather than of the Early Church teachings.
One example of this new kind of teaching seperate from the Early Church was strongly brought into existance by St. Augustine around the 5th century AD. According to documentations, he had quite a testmony of Christ's work in his life, yet he chose a "spiritualized" version of interpreting God's Word to follow. Supposedly, as never got that far to check it out, but this "version" of interpretation originated from Alexandria located in the Middle East some where.
This was the point I was trying to make is all.
God Bless!!
Posted by: akabezalel
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Originally Posted by JG
I just knew someone would ask that
That is why I put the references at the end of the quotes
(Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V, vi, 1, ANF, I, 531.) (The Charismatic Movement, 1975, Michael P. Hamilton, p 66)
I even have the page numbers down.
You can order them or ask your library.
The whole collection is about $16,000.00
Love you guys
Pastor Jerry
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YIKES!!!!! I think I will go to the library!!! Or maybe Google it... OUCH!!! That is one pricey set of books!
Posted by: JG
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Originally Posted by Christian Commando
According to research I'd done, this was why the Early Church Leaders had several major meetings back in the at least 3rd century AD in order to set Biblical peramiters for what is classified as Christian and that which is not, for this division starting to appear, of people coming out with other beliefs rather than of the Early Church teachings.
One example of this new kind of teaching seperate from the Early Church was strongly brought into existance by St. Augustine
Alexandria located in the Middle East some where.
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Alexandria is in Egypt: (Greek: Ἀλεξάνδρεια, Rakotə, Arabic: الإسكندرية Al-ʼIskandariya, Egyptian Arabic: Iskindireyya), (population of 3.5 to 5 million), is the second-largest city in Egypt, and its largest seaport

The first church fight started in 41ad not 350ad. It was between the apostles in Jerusalem and the rest of the world. They were saying unless you offer animals you can not be saved
The Apostles were allowing this to happen
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. ...........
Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Now understand for over 18 years the Apostles were teaching them to follow the old law and offer animals....
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, (this was a huge church fight) Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. ..........
Act 15:13 ....James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
...............
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Act 15:23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:
Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This all happened in 41 AD
This is 8 years later in 49AD.
So you see the first fight in Church Doctrine was not in the 4th century but the first. And it was over should we keep the law, the whole law.
Act 21:15 And after those days we took up our carriages, and went up to Jerusalem. .....
Act 21:17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.
Act 21:18 And the [day] following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. .................
Act 21:20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.
Act 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Act 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
This is the Paul we know who preached you are saved by grace.
Act 21:23b But because we have thousands of converts who still obey the old law they do not like you. Your presence here may cause a church fight. So Paul please break your own teaching and offer some lambs like the old days so people will know you are just like them.
The Vow was a Nazarite
Num 6:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate [themselves] to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate [themselves] unto the LORD:
Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
If you are in a Nazarite Vow and you come into contact with someone who is unclean you must shave your head...
Num 6:9 And if any man .... hath defiled the head of his consecration; then he shall shave his head in the day of his cleansing, on the seventh day shall he shave it.
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Paul was to go into the temple with the men and offer three offering for each man. A Lamb for a burnt offering, a lamb for a sin, a ram for a peace offering and a bread offering.
Num 6:14 And he shall offer his offering unto the LORD, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings,
Num 6:15 And a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, and wafers of unleavened bread anointed with oil, and their meat offering, and their drink offerings.
Remember this is Paul who said
Hbr 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Act 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
The "Jews" here that turned him in are the same "Jews" memtioned in Act 21:20
Act 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all [men] every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
Act 21:29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)
Act 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
Act 21:31 And as they went about to kill him,
The people who wanted to kill him were the Christian Brothers who knew what he was doing.
The conclusion of it all was that Jesus had enough.
Not one document or letter from Jerusalem was ever saved by the Lord for us to read. All their hard work was destroyed so the true Gospel of Grace could be spread over the whole world.
For almost 40 years even the Apostles taught some things that we would not believe today. God did not get mad at them. He just destroyed the temple and made them move into the gentile parts of the world and teach grace with Paul.
I hope you like this
Pastor Jerry
The amazing part of this is that you could be an apostle and be wrong but still be an apostle and loved by Jesus.
Posted by: JG
Did anyone like the first church fight I posted above I really would like to know
Pastor Jerry
Posted by: akabezalel
I have to read it when I am more awake than I am now... it just looks like a bunch of words just now. I am off to bed soon. In fact the first time I read the article I did not even see the whole thing! My eyes stopped at the map and that is all i saw... I don't think there is enough coffee in Washington to wake me up enough to concentrate long enough to read the article but i will give you my thoughts tomorrow when i can comprehend what you are saying.
Posted by: prayerwarrior88888888
Praise God!
Thank you so much for all the information. I can't wait to really study all the teachings Pastor Jerry.
I knew I would get some real truth from the Church. Shame on me for allowing anything to stop or hinder the gift given to me.
God bless everyone.
Posted by: JG
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Originally Posted by prayerwarrior88888888
Thank you so much for all the information. I can't wait to really study all the teachings Pastor Jerry.
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You are so welcome My Friend
Pastor Jerry
Posted by: prayerwarrior88888888
Dear Pastor Jerry
Thank you so much for your teachings. I am sorry to say I have not been active in church for many years. I do have relationship with God and I do believe He has given us gifts in the Holy Spirit. I received the gift and have not used it for some time. Other than it comes out of me at the most expected times.
I had been talking with some young girls I work with about speaking in tongues. My flesh has quenched my gifts time and again and led me to do a search about speaking in tongues. For this I ask the Holy Spirit for forgiveness. I fear I have grieved the Holy Spirit and I am truly sorry for anything I may have said or done.
I pray it is not too late to continue to share the truths of God with these young women I work with. They listen and I know they are searching as we all do for the truth of what You are to us Lord God.
I look forward to the next time You give me the opprortunity to speaak on this subject. May Your words be what come from my lips.
Thank You for Pastor Jerry and his ministry. Thank you for all the saints who are here to share and pray.
Posted by: Christian Commando
Dear Pastor Jerry-
Icertainly do wish that you would continue a taching on such things. There is still so much to learn, please continue or start a lesson in your "lesson's"forum for this, I LOVE IT!!!
Thank you and God Bless!!
Posted by: akabezalel
Quote:
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
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Is this essentially saying "Back off the strictures of man made rules and let the Holy Spirit guide them in their relationship"?
Or is it saying that gentiles only have to follow those few rules in order to be considered saved?
This is a sticking point with my brother who believes he is saved simply because he loves Jesus and doesn't do the things listed in these verses.
Posted by: Christian Commando
Akabezalel-
It appears people were arguing over what was acceptable of the Old Test and that of the New, concerning Gentiles and meats- vs- 28-31. I see no reference to of anything pertaining to this giving them Salvation, as the message since Christ left, by the Apostles was always thru Christ, are we saved by faith, not of works, lest any man should boast.
In your reference, this only pertained to Gentiles who were sticking with Old Test meat eating guidelines is all. Yet, in another Scriptural reference, Paul, by the Holy Spirit declares, we are not to judge anyone by the food eaten, day of worship chosen, etc, but to leave it neutral and accept it when with them, or obstain from other things when with them, being peace makers.
God Bless!!