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Biblical submission

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Posted by: eagle4him

Jerry would you do a lesson on Biblical submission? Husbands, wives, children, employers, etc.? What does the Apostle Paul mean when he says that women should be silent in the church in all the congregations? What does it mean for a man to have authority over his wife?



Posted by: Rachel R

God love you, eagle.

I can speak to this because I am a man-hater the way you are a woman-hater.

It is racism along gender lines.

It is based on hating the control of others.

It is fear of control, or fear of lack of control.

Please know that I feel for you.

I battle it every day.

Praying for you and your marriage.

Rachel R



Posted by: eagle4him

Rachel you certainly cut to the chase. And I appreciate your honesty. Tell me then how am I supposed to 'submit to each other'? The Bible says that men are to love their wives, in fact we are commanded to. Women are not commanded to love their husbands, but are to respect them. What does it mean for a woman to submit to her husband in all things? I know I am not to dominate or control or dictate. I am not to force or demand.

I hear someone preach that a husband is to submit to his wife's need but not to her lead.



Posted by: onesnowflake

You are to love your wife as God loved the church and gave himself for it. She is to respect you and be the helpmate God created her to be. She is to respect you in the fact that as the leader of your home you are responsible for all that goes on in it and God will hold you accountable for it.
That is how I see it.



Posted by: Christian Commando

Eagle4Him-

God tells us in I Cor. 7:3, both the husband and wife are to render due bonevolence- (respect), unto each other. V4- shows why, neither the husband or wife has any power of thier own over thier own body, but the spouce does-(becoming one flesh).

You'll find where I Tim. 2:12-14, the woman is not to teach or to usurp the authority of the man, God still imparts upon the woman in Ps. 31, specific duties that still edify the husband, family and her, as more an attitude for how to be a Godly wife. Thus, this does show she does share authority to an extent.

In Ephes. 5:22- Shows wives are to submit unto thier husbands as unto the Lord. 23- The husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church- (Christ- Groom, Church- Bride). Not to be construed as tryanical ruling either. 24- As the Church is subject to Christ in all things, so let the wife also be to her husband. 25- But- Husbands, now you must love your wives and be a sacrifice as well unto them, as Christ was for the Church.

V 26- That he might sanctify it and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word.(Leading the family in rightceouness before God thru the sharing of and holding to as an example, from God's Word).

27- The husband is responcible to lead the family from God's Word so as to show no spot or wrinkle that it will be found Holy and without blemish.28-29- That the husband love his wife as he loves himself, to take care of her and cherish her, even as Christ loves and cherishes the Church.

Now, this is only a part of it, as Pastor Jerry, in his lessons room, gives an incredible indepth intense understanding far above what I can share here for husbands and wives. I suggest your best answers will be found there. Please go to it and look up that subject. There are many more Scriptures of God's Word Pastor covers to detail thier relationship and position as husband's and wive's.

God Bless!!



Posted by: BrendaMagana

Just to add onto the wonderful insight Christian Commando has given, there is nothing like Biblical submission of the woman to man.

It is edification and this divine favour. The Bible confirms this in many versus including Proverbs 18.22 which states:
Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.
AND FURTHER in Mark 10:7-9 that:

A man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh, so they are no longer two but one. What God has joined together, let man not separate.

In the book of Genesis 1:28 and 2:18 we see God giving Adam dominion over fish, birds and other living things and not over the woman. The woman was given to him as a HELPER to edify him and keep him company as he worked the garden of Eden

God gave Adam dominion of the all this Besides, a number of Christ's followers during His ministry hear on earth were women, and the Lord's fair and just treatment of the women probably inspired early Christianity to accept women as church leaders.

Paul refers to two women as his co-workers, Euodia and Syntyche as active evangelists and writes about Phoebe, a minister or deacon of the church a Cenchrea. He also talks about Priscilla, "a fellow worker for Christ. In the book of Galatians Paul states clearly that there is no distinction between male and female who are baptized into the family of Christ.

From the above analysis we can see that women have held key roles during and after Christ's Ministry here on earth.

There was no requirement for submission or silence in church. These were measures crafted later on to deny women of their God given rights.

It is only the Synod of Carthage held in 398 AD that ruled that women were from then on not to be permitted to teach men or even baptize members of the church. This was a malicious campaign to stop and or undermine the rise of hardworking godly and devoted women as pastors and teachers in the Vineyard of Jesus Christ- The Church.








Posted by: eagle4him

All of your posts are very good. I come here to learn on this subject as I have apparently failed in my own marriage as a godly husband.

1 Cor 14:33 clearly states that women are to be silent in the church. Now I believe this is referring to married women, not all women. Married women are to be submissive to their husbands and not to talk out of turn or disrupt the assembly. This would be disrespectful to their husbands.

Since a married woman has as her "covering" her husband, then out of respect she should go to him first. The unmarried woman has Jesus Christ as her husband, covering.

This whole concept leads to another discussion of the whole concept of "spritual covering" what it is, and who does and who doesn't have it, that should be another complete thread in itself. Any takers?

The women in ministry such as Phoebe and the others mentioned above, were they married or unmarried?

In the book of Ephesians, 5:21 Paul stats "submitting to each other." Then in the following verses he goes on to clarify what godly submission looks like in different situations.

The first is that wives are to submit to their husbands (in everything). Not to rule or dictatorship, but reverently, knowing that if the man makes a mistake that God will correct him. Wives do not get to "not submit" because they think their husbands are sinners--we all are sinners! Not submitting to your husband is rebellion to God, which is the sin of witchcraft! 1 Samuel 15:23: "For rebellion is as the sin of divination,(witchcraft) And insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He has also rejected you from being king."


The second example of submission Paul talks about is that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church--that a husband is to lay down his life for his wife. The husband must crucify his own flesh in order to meet the needs of his wife.

The third example of submission is children are to obey their parents. The benefit is that it may go well with the children and that they would live a long life.

The fourth example of Biblical submission is that salaves (employees) are to obey their earthly masters (bosses) with respect, and fear (of the Lord), and with sincerity. Serving as if what you do is for the Lord, for in fact it is.


and the fifth example of biblical submission is that masters (bosses) treat their slaves (employees) properly, without threats, since everyone ultimately has the same boss, God in heaven.

No where in the instruction of Paul is the theme or theology that husbands and wives are to submit to each other equally. The husband is clearly supposed to be the head of the family, and a two-headed leader is not normal. One ultimately has to make the decisions and Jesus said it should be the man of the house. In business the employees do not have the right to tell the boss what to do, nor in a family do the children have the right to tell the parents what to do.

This is what is wrong with the American church today. Children tell their parents what to do. Employees tell their bosses what to do. And many wives try to tell their husbands what to do. All three are out of order. God is a God of order, as explained in the above examples.

This does not in any way mean that I am a woman-hater. This was not my idea for order in the house--but it was God's idea. If you have a problem with God's ideas---take it up with Him. Don't shoot the messenger!



Posted by: GODS Grace

Your post caught my attention because of something that happened...
While praying for another couple, i had this dream about a man who was held in high regard. He had a lasso. As his wife ran ahead of his team, his lasso unintentionally becomes a noose around her neck. Boy! As i prayed for an interpretation for that dream, I've had to learn some things about gender gap. God lead me to read scriptures referencing the word "restrain" or "restraint". The noose around the women's neck in the dream represented "restraint" on her neck or "will". Wow! Being a women, I thought this was something fatal. The bible says that the letter of the law kills but the spirit gives life! I am so glad God can bring His word to life in our lives. I'd encourage anyone to this word study. As you know, it's sad that the message of the cross has became increasingly less "popular" in what is now called "seeker friendly" churches, especially in our area, Austin. God, Not my will but yours.

Last week, God lead my husband and i to teach the children in our church about producing God's fruit in your life. Together we learned how "acting" loving isn't "being loving", or we learn to love when we learn to love those we love the least. This week’s lesson is about being patient. It’s also true that God never called us to "other control" but SELF-CONTROL. It's so easy for us to "flesh out". We try to get God and other to get on "our team" so that “our needs” get meet. Instead, God asks us to get on His team by believe that He will meet our legitimate needs (like respect, love, security) as men and women instead of demanding them. Remember in the bible when the man asked the angel of the Lord “Are you on my side or on my enemies’ side?” The angel replies, “Neither, I come in the Name of the Lord!” A scripture on "submitting to one another" in marraige is Ephesians 5:21 Thanks for letting me share. Grace

BTW: This dream helped me grow in God. It helps me better understand the scripture ..."It is better to live on a roof top than share a house with a contentious wife." I had to ask my husband forgiveness and work at being more supportive (restraint). I sure like it when he wants to comes home early from work
instead of working late hours.
God’s kindness (through others) can lead us to repentance.
Lord, “Forgive us as we forgive others, Led us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.”




Posted by: gfrissen

Somebody please tell me. Suppose the husband says he believes in God but then you see that he acts otherwise, time and again. He acts in an indecent way and is not a role model either of a husband or a good member of the community. Does the wife still have to respect and submit to him? The children turn to the mother as the more secure adult and either start ignoring the father or react agressively because they see his fruit is bad.The mother keeps his bad image a secret from the outside world but inside the family is torn into two. Where does submission and respect come into the picture?



Posted by: Christian Commando

gfrissen-

According to God, yes, but, also according to God, the woman being the helpmate, she is also to help uplift the husband in keeping inline with God. Becoming "one flesh" is a part of how the husband and wife work together, to Glorify God in all things, according to God's position for each gender in marriage.

Neither husband nor wife will be perfect, therefore, as each one may fall to a weakness or fault that satan will attack, its up to the other mate to keep the faultering one lifted up and strengthened in God thru Christ, by sharing God's Word, uplifting speech and actions as well, staying the best example possible for the faultering one to witness and be strengthened by the Holy Spirit's operating thru them.

Both the husband and wife are to be subject to each other, as is according to God. Where an expected subjection is not according to God, this should be discussed calmly, lovingly and compassionately between the spouces.

As with all divisions between God's Children, if the one who is not Biblical refuses to listen, then bring one or more others with them to speak of this again. If still rejects the correction, then it should be taken to the Church- Pastor and have them help them face the one who is not Biblical.

God shows in His Word, that which is hidden shall be brought out in the open soon enough, thus, that is no to be worried about. God gives us specific peramiters to follow in accordance with keeping peace and attempts at restoring love and harmony.

These must be adhered to, wether in a good relationship or one that is failing. God will intercede as He knows best, so long as at least one partner is following Him and holding to God's guidelines. Prayer is also a vital part of seeking God's help with such situations.

But, both must be willing to acknowledge God's Word of Truth concerning such things, as each one has to make thier own choices.

I pray this helps-

God Bless!!



Posted by: Rachel R

Would to God that life were that simple, CC.

Time comes when you have to step up and do what is right to save your children and yourself.

It is irresponsible to ask her to let them all be destoyed in order to maintain 'submission'.

Take care of your children and take care of yourself.

Pray for him, but do the right thing.

There is no reason for you and your children to be destoyed because of his bad choices.

You may save him by holding him accountable for his actions.

Rachel R



Posted by: JG

to My Dear Friends and Family:

I think I will just jump into the deep end first.
Could you men submit to an apostle?
Could you men submit to a woman apostle?

Please read this whole lesson.
It is a copy I posted a long time ago in Jerry's lessons.

You guys have no idea how proud I am of you.
Thank you for making this such a great family.

Pastor Jerry


Dear Carol

Maybe this will help. Did you know there was a woman apostle.






    Can a Woman be an Apostle
    Junia

    For many years bible scholors thought Junia(s) was a man--or if they admitted she was a woman, they discounted her as just someone highly regarded by the apostles. Recent scholarship proves she was both a woman and an apostle! But let's start by looking at each piece of this scripture puzzle.

    Romans 16:7
    "Greet Andronicus and Junias (Junia) my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was." NIV (The NAS and NASU both use "outstanding", the KJV uses "of note" meaning notable.)

    English
    Greek
    Strongs
    Greet
    aspasasthe
    782
    1.Andronicus
    Andronikon
    408
    and
    kai
    2532
    2.Junia
    Iounian
    2458
    (the)
    tous
    3588
    3.relatives
    sungeneis
    4773
    my
    mou
    3450
    and
    kai
    2532
    4.fellow prisoners
    sunaichmalootous
    4869
    my
    mou
    3450
    who
    hoitines
    3748
    are
    eisin
    1526
    5.outstanding
    episeemoi
    1978
    6.among
    en
    1722
    the
    tois
    3588
    7.apostles
    apostolois
    652
    who
    hoi
    3739
    also
    kai
    2532
    8.before
    pro
    4253
    me
    emou
    1700
    were
    gegonan
    1096
    in
    en
    1722
    Christ
    Christoo
    5547
    1. Andronicus means "man of victory".
    2. Iounias-Junia , a common Latin female name meaning "youthful", a Christian woman at Rome, mentioned by Paul as one of his kinsfolk and fellow prisoners, Thayer's Greek Definitions. Also see the following pages for more proof.
    3. relatives - Could mean related by blood, of the same race, or of the tribe of Benjamin.
    4. fellow prisoners - They had once all three been imprisoned together, most likely for being Christian leaders. Paul would have gotten to know both of them very well.
    5. outstanding - Episemos ep-is'-ay-mos - remarkable, eminent Strong's Greek-Hebrew Dictionary.
    6. among - En, translated "among" 97 other times in the NT, in Matthew 20:26 "to be great among you" uses the same word. Expresses the idea of being within a group.
    7. apostles - These were not of the 12, but apostle (meaning one who is sent) remained a spiritual gift, 1 Cor 12:28, and we have biblical proof that others became known as apostles as they received this spiritual gift or calling. Paul and Barnabas were apostles, Col.1:1, Acts 14:3,4.; also Silvanas and Timothy, read both 1 Thes 1:1, and 2:6.
    8. before -These two were "in Christ" before Paul, meaning baptized before Paul was, and thus preceded him as Christians. Andronicus and Junia had more experience than Paul!

    Was Junia "among" as "one of" the apostles, or just highly regarded by the apostles?

    Some sholors have tried to change the text by saying it read "by" the apostles or "said to be" outstanding among (here they substitute "by") the apostles." Changing "among" and adding the other four words totally changes the meaning of this scripture! However, these four words—said to be/by—are not in the Greek text. In studying scriptures we cannot just randomly add words or change the words that are there! For the meaning "by" Paul would have used one of two totally different Greek words—para or pros—rather than using en which implies selection from within a group.1

    The Holy Spirit knew exactly what He was going to say through Paul. He knew them best and he was praising them as "outstanding (or eminent) among the apostles." The Holy Spirit considered them apostles just as He considered Paul to be an apostle. They were part of the group called apostles, they were apostles, and were setting an outstanding example.

    The Wycliffe Bible Commentary states, "Paul describes them as being prominent among the apostles, and as having been Christians before him."

    The United Bible Societies Handbook Series, an acknowledged authority composed of a board of respected translators, first acknowledges that they are a male/female team, "Adronicus and Junias ... could easily have been husband and wife, or brother and sister." They acknowledge that some misunderstood the sentence, "to mean 'the apostles know them well,' but a far more acceptable interpretation would imply that these...were counted as apostles and were well known, for example, 'as apostles they are well known.'"3

    Why wasn't a woman among the original twelve apostles of Jesus?
    A woman might well have been killed because of the moral outrage in that day and time against a woman being one of the disciples. Traveling around together in the three and one-half year training period demanded maleness of the core group of disciples. The women who did travel with them were not formally called disciples and thus could be accepted by that culture.

    Remember, all of the twelve apostles were Jewish males. Did that mean that from then on all apostles or leaders had to be Jewish? There were no American apostles or Canadian apostles, did that mean that Jesus would never later call American or Canadian ministers to serve him? The twelve were selected in a specific time period and to have a woman apostle in the original twelve would have brought about persecution and accusations of immorality. Jesus never said anything that would exclude later female apostles in the group that Paul was a part of. After the twelve we see that there was at least one women, believed to be married, who was called to be an apostle—Junia. As early believers, she and her husband may well have been among the 120 disciples mentioned in Acts 1:15.

    Is there proof that the term "apostle" continued beyond the Twelve?

    See number seven on the chart for scriptures proving that others were called apostles in addition to the original twelve and Mathias. Men such as Paul, Barnabas, Silvanus and Timothy were all later apostles. Also see Thayer's. 4

    We also find other scriptural proof that there were many that were called apostles in the New Testament beyond the twelve. 2 Cor. 8:22-24 is translated "messengers of the churches" but it is the same Greek word, apostolos, Strong's 652, and could be translated as "apostles of the churches"! In Phil 2:25 Epaphroditus is also called an apostolon or apostle, but once again it was translated "your messenger" rather than apostle.

    Do early commentators record that Junia was a female apostle?

    Dr. Leonard Swidler states, "To the best of my knowledge, no commentator on the Text until Aegidus of Rome (1245-1316) took the name to be masculine."5 So until the late 13th century, historical references all agreed that Junia was female, as did the men below.

    Origen, of Alexandria who lived toward the end of the second century (c. 185-253).

    See Epistolam ad Romanos Commentariorum 10, 23; 29.

    John Chrysostrom, 4th century, (337-497) wrote, "Oh! How great is the devotion of this woman, that she should be even counted worthy of the appellation of apostle! (Homily on the Epistle of St. Paul the Apostle to the Romans XXXI).

    Jerome (340-419) wrote that Junia was a female. (Liver Interpretationis Hebraicorum Nominum 72, 15.) Also Hatto of Vercelli (924-961), Theophylack (1050-1108), and Peter Abelard (1079-1142) 6

    How did Junia become known as a male?

    The change took place in approximately 1298 which was during the reign of Pope Boniface VIII (Benedict Gaetani, reigned from 1294-1303). You will remember that the first person to record the two as "men" was Aegidus in Rome, a contemporary of Pope Boniface VIII. The Catholic Encyclopedia goes on to tell us that this pope was accused of infidelity, heresy, simony, gross and unnatural immorality, adultery, magic, loss of the Holy Land, death of Celestine V, and more. When King Philip IV of France brought these charges against him five archbishops, 21 bishops and some abbots sided with the king! 7 This evil man had persuaded the pope before him, Celestine V, to resign, and then following his own election as pope, imprisoned the elderly man until his death. 8

    One famous quote from Boniface VIII is, "It is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff."9

    A papal decision that dealt directly with religious women was the papal bull known as Periculoso, which was the first word of the Latin text. This decree of 1298 announced that all nuns, no matter their rank, or what rule they observed and no matter where their monasteries were located—all nuns were to be perpetually cloistered! Unless a nun became contagiously ill, she could not leave her monastery or invite "unauthorized persons" into the monastery.10 Once they had been free to come and go on their own religious business and ministries, now nuns were to be totally separated and no longer free to come and go as they wished. This was a milestone decision and transformed monasteries into virtual prisons! One order of nuns threw the bishop delivering this decree out of their convent and tossed the edict along after him! One reason given for this decree was for their safety, but soon afterwards many safe monasteries out in the country were closed and relocated to cities, so this reason did not really seem valid. Boniface may well have wished to limit the power and influence of the women of the church. Many nuns protested but the edict remained and continues to this day. Nuns never regained the freedom they had before the edict of 1298.

    Monasteries of women were famous for producing their own copyists and illuminators of manuscripts.11 Therefore these nun bible copyists and educated nuns among them such as Gertrude the Great (1256-1302) who wrote Herald of Divine Love, would have been able to cite Junia as an apostle from the biblical record of Romans. Did Boniface VIII also rule that Junia would henceforth be considered a male? Conclusive evidence eludes us, but we do know that at about the same time as this edict against nuns, medieval biblical commentators began referring to Junia as a male! The first person Dr. Swidler sites to do so is Aeigidus of Rome. If this is the same man as AEgidius Colonna, the Archbishop of Bourges who helped Boniface write one of his major papal bulls—then we have a direct link to Boniface VIII.12 Another shocking change occurred at about this same time.

    "Junia" becomes "Junias"

    "Without exception the church fathers in late antiquity identified Andronicus' partner in Romans 16:7 as a woman as did minuscule 33 in the 9th century which records Iounia (Greek for Junia) with an acute accent. Only later medieval copyists of Romans 17:7 could not imagine a woman being an apostle and wrote the masculine name Iounias (Junias) with an s. This later name Junias did not exist in antiquity; its explanation as a Greek abbreviation of the Latin name 'Junianus' is unlikely."13

    At about the time of Pope Boniface's edict removing the freedom of nuns in 1298, copyists began writing the name Junia as Junias! Yet recent research has shown that the newly created name, Junias, didn't even exist at the time of Paul!

    "This hypothetical name Junias is, however, as yet unattested in ancient inscriptions, but the female Latin name Junia occurs over 250 times among inscriptions from ancient Rome alone. Further, the ancient translations and the earliest manuscripts with accents support reading Iounian as Junia. Finally, Junias would be an irregular form. Therefore, critical scholars today increasingly interpret the name as the feminine Junia."14

    Junia was a very common Latin female name and we have no record of any Roman male bearing the name Junia. But medieval copyists began copying the name with as "s" to hide Junia's sex, not knowing that the name Junias "did not exist in antiquity"! So Junia received a fictitious name, possibly at the command of Pope Boniface VIII!

    Apostle is listed as one of the Spiritual gifts given by God.

    God Himself gives the ability to do these jobs,"And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues." 1 Corinthians 12:28, NIV

    Apostle is listed first by Paul as one of the most important of the spiritual gifts because these individuals are responsible for evangelizing, setting up churches, organizing them, handling the problems that arose, ordaining elders for each church and generally coordinating, supervising and serving a number of congregations. Again, it is God that gives these individuals the ability—as a spiritual gift—to do a certain job. Ordination was usually done long after the person was already getting the job done through the leading of God's Holy Spirit. You will notice that Stephen was performing miracles and preaching even though his ordination had been to deacon, see Acts 6:1-10.

    Since Junia was given this highest spiritual gift along with her husband Andronicus, it is obvious that women can also be given the calling (spiritual gift) of serving God as a prophet, teacher, or any of the other spiritual gifts. In the scriptures that explain spiritual gifts there is no indication that any gift is limited to males only. Both men and women are to work together using whatever talents, abilities and spiritual gifts they have been given by God to serve, in a servant manner, the people of God.


    • 1 Aida Besancon Spencer, Beyond the Curse, page 102.
    • 2 Galatians 1:18-24
    • 3 United Bible Societies Handbook Series, (1961-1997) for Romans 16:7
    • 4 Thayer’s Greek Definitions 652 apostolos—a delegate, a messenger, one sent forth with orders a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ b) in a broader sense, applied to other eminent Christian teachers.
    • 5 Leonard Swidler, Biblical Affirmations of Women, Westminster Press (1979) p. 299
    • 6 Charles Trombley, Who Said Women Can’t Teach, Bridge Publishing (1985) p. 190
    • 7 Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition, article on Pope Boniface VIII
    • 8 New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967 edition, Vol. 2, article on Pope Boniface VIII
    • 9 From papal bull, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 1302, as quoted in The Encyclopedia of Religion, 1995, Vol. 1, PP 288-289.
    • 10 Elizabeth M. Makowski, Canon Law and Cloistered Women, http://cuapress.cua.edu
    • 11 Book review of Women in the Days of the Cathedrals by Regine Pernoud, translated by Anne Cote-Harriss, p. 2. Online: www.ignatius.com/magazines/hpr/Hprbooks.htm
    • 12 Catholic Encyclopedia, (1913), “Pope Boniface VIII”
    • 13 “Junia”, The Anchor Bible Dictionary, (1992), Vol. 3, p. 1127
    • 14 Women in Scripture, editor Carol Meyers, (2000), article “Junia” by Bernadette J. Brooten, p. 109