I heard that Job could only be attacked by Satan because he had wrong concepts of God and because of these false concepts God had to allow Satan to attack Job. Now I ask myself what false concepts did Job have? I have never heard this before.
Usually it is simply stated that Job had to suffer because God uses suffering to achieve something good and yadda. The typical explanation which you hear in the religious world today.
Posted by: Rachel R
Hi, Frederik.
Thanks for starting a discusssion...
I love those...
I always hated the idea that the book of Job made me feel like God was just playing with Job's suffering, like on a bet with Satan.
I heard one speaker say that it was because Job had allowed fear in his life.
That Job had been worrying and picturing tragedy for himself and his family, and those fears came in reality.
Rachel R
Posted by: Frederik
Yes, maybe the fear played a role. But I also wonder about the wrong concepts of God which Job is said to have had. His friends also had wrong concepts of God. I read a bit in Job yesterday and read a few chapters where Job and his friends were speaking but I didn't find anything which jumped out at me as being a false concept.
Posted by: MarkSentMe
"And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him witout cause." (Job 2:3)
It does seem like a bet. Satan basically says that humans are all the same, that we are fair-weather worshippers; when the chips are down, we fold. God says to Satan to have a look at Job and says that Job is faithful and would not fold. So God gives Satan permission to do with Job as he wished, only not to kill him. Reminds me of the Disney movie Alladdin where the genie says,"You'd be surprised at what you can live through."
All this bad stuff happens to Job, he loses his family, his livlihood, his health, his wealth, even his wife says,"Curse God and die!" His friends are all wet blankets who offer little help, just nattering about Job's weak faith being the reason he was in such dire straits. I dunno, Job held on until the end. Weak faith, nothing! He stayed faithful and God rewarded him for it.
Posted by: Rachel R
Job's wife REALLY paid for shooting her mouth off.
It says that ALL of Job's blessings were removed and he still had his wife.
Enough said.
Her punishment was that after having all those children that they lost, they had seven MORE sons and three MORE daughters!
That is HARSH.
Rachel R
Posted by: eagle4him
Job was blameless and upright, feared the Lord and shunned evil! No more and no less! He did not do anything wrong.
Why do people want to blame the person when something bad happens to them? this is false religion, or the concept of Karma. Well, you must have done something wrong.
Don't read into this! Job was blameless and upright, and he feared the Lord!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Frederik
Okay, if Job did nothing wrong then the only option left is that God simply liked playing a little game with Satan and Job and his family was simply collateral damage. If you like this one better then go ahead.
I think the thought isn't really uplifting that God and Satan are up there playing games or betting over who's going to forsake the Lord if he's attacked by Satan....
Posted by: Christian Commando
ok now hehe, lets not be jumping to conclusions here hehe.
First- God declares Job an uprigt and God fearing man- 1:1. Then God shows he even gives offerings to God for his chilren for thier sins- 1:5.
But, in 1:6, the Angels gather together before God at one point, and who shows up, but satan. Now understand this, this was not a "bet" between satan and God.
V 7- "And the Lord said unto satan, whence comest thou? V 8- God asks satan, have you considered my servant Job? V9- Satan asks God if Job fears God for no reason? V 10- because you've put a hedge of protection around the man, his house, family, Blessed him and his work? V 11- But, stretch forth your Hand and "touch"- (means to remove) all that he has, and he will curse you to your face?
V12- So God allows satan control over all Job's possessions, but not Job himself.
See, in v 8, it shows where satan never even tried to come against Job, for the hedge of Angels God had put around Job, who was such a wonderful servant of God. Thats why, when God asks why satan had never considered coming against Job.
God's Word declares God cannot be touched nor tempted by sin. Therefore, a "bet" as you had called it, would not be, as that would be "tempting" God by pride, to turn Job over to satan. Thus, this could not be. For also, pride, is the sin God hates worst of all sins.
Job had done nothing wrong, for that matter, it was God's knowing all things, that allowed Him to turn over more and more of Job's life to satan, knowing full well, Job was that strong of a man in God, to withstand anything God would allow satan to throw at him.
Never ever, consider that God and satan are playing games with man. God clearly declares we were not created for that, but for reasons of Glorifying God.
Rather, I strongly suggest this way to look at Job, at what an incredible tetimony of faith and belief and loving fear Job demonstrates for God thru out all those events that happened to him.
What an incredibly beautiful witness as an example to all God's Children, of how to stand against satan and his demons attacks against us.
Its strange why people would think a bet went on between satan and God, when God had such a good servant of his so well protected from satan and his demons, and God simply asks satan why he hasn't tried him, and satan then answers with what I mentioned and then simply tells God, hey, if Job were any more unprotected as all others are, he would be as falable as all others are.
So... God shows He decides to prove to satan he's wrong, by allowing satan to go against Job. And in 2:3, God is not saying that satan convinced God to go against Job and destroy him, because God is the author of life, satan is the author of death, thus, God is speaking of giving His permission to satan to slowly destroy Job without reason- (for as upright and perfect as Job had been thinking and operating).
As MarkSentMe states, it was the fact, God proved satan wrong, by Job's faith being so strong, to hold up thru all he endured, God wildly Blessed Job beyond that which he had had, to start with, for staying so strong for God.
Let us from now on, keep sight of God's incredible Blessings He waits to bestow on each of us, as we go thru trials and temptations and stay strong in God to get thru them and recieve that which God wants for us as rewards.
That we not be so concerned with what reward(s) we will be expecting here in the physical. As God declares, we are to be more concerned with storing up treasures in Heaven than on earth. Is it not a greater pleasure to be expecting our rewards when reach our spiritual eternity with God, than using up or wasting temporary physical rewards here on earth?
Think about all this people-
God Bless!!
Posted by: Frederik
But God already knew the outcome, why didn't he simply say that he knows the outcome and then tell Satan to get lost? Why do you say did he have to show Satan that He is right and Satan is wrong?
This once again sounds as if suffering is good and that God uses suffering for good things. To teach us something and so on. And this causes many christians which are sick to desire to be like Job and they think that their sickness is good and they read Job and feel totally godly and so on. But if being sick is good then why did Jesus heal people? Then Jesus should have allowed them to stay sick and to be like Job.
Posted by: MarkSentMe
Quote:
Why do you say did he have to show Satan that He is right and Satan is wrong?
This once again sounds as if suffering is good and that God uses suffering for good things.
Satan spends an exorbitantly large amount of energy and time luring people to believe that sin is right and that we will never be "good enough for God, so why even bother?" By having Job's testimony which is evidence that even in the midst of hardships, pain, illness, suffering, loss, grief, we can praise God and thank Him for what we have been blessed with, for what He has done and is doing in our lives- even if we don't see the big picture. Job does not give Satan credit for his suffering.
How many Christians, the minute they have one tiny bit of inconvenience, discomfort, delay in personal gratification, unplanned circumstances- instead of praising God for what He is doing and "Be Still and Know That I AM God", they praise Satan for their situation and the works that he is doing (if it is even Satan at all)? I see it OFTEN and it sickens me. It's like "as long as God is doing things MY way, when I snap my fingers- it's a blessing; but when God does things GOD's way in His timing, then it MUST be Satan, because God loves me and only wants MY happiness..." No, they don't come out and say it in those terms, but the whining, the snot-snivelling, the doubt and the second-guessing God's omnipotence is the same unfaithful, "luck-based" disrespect. Then when God does work in their lives, it's like,"OK, I'm back on the bandwagon. I'm ready to play on the team...that is, until my next set-back."
God DOES use suffering for good things- always. The lesson may not be for you, personally. Sometimes God uses our suffering and our response to it to teach someone else a lesson. If, when we are going through a hardship, a loss, a death, a set-back, we put it in God's hands and "pray our way through it", then others see it and it is the strongest witness we have- our faith. Now, the opposite works also. If we cry and stamp our feet and doubt and are running around keeping our misery alive by continually talking about it and never giving God one ounce of credit- THAT is a powerful testimony as well. That garbage is used by Satan to show the unsaved what life as a Christian looks like- suffering without any good coming of it besides bitterness and loss and grief.
Posted by: Christian Commando
My friend-
Have you not understood God's Word telling us- "count it all joy when ye fall unto diverse temptations..."? It's the trying of our faith that works patience in waiting on God's deliverance of us from or thru satan's attacks, to build our faith by patience, helping us become perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Or God telling us, as Christ does, we will suffer as God's Children for His Name's sake, or that we will be Blessed and or rewarded of God for holding out for Him thru such things. That trials and tribulation help us to grow closer and stronger in God, plus much more.
Freferik, suffering is good from God's stand point for us, knowing it helps each of His Children learn to lean more on Him and seek Him more.
Jesus declares, that thoe He healed, were the examples given for all people who witnessed such things, might believe He was God in the flesh, the Messiah, annointed one, sent one, etc.
If want to know about sickness, it came into the world because of sin, both man and world became tainted by sin, thus, sickness is not only present in this world, but effecrs us, because we are born in sin as well.
Thus, satan uses sickness, to attack God's Children to hurt and or destroy them, but God can deliver them thru it, according to His will for them. As such, be it accidents, outright attacks, angry moments, disease, etc, God allows satan to come at us with such, that it helps us gain faith in God as we grow more in Him.
Remember, Christ declares, He came not to bring peace, but division. As such, He did this, to re-institute God's Children, thru the foundational building System of the New Covenant, brought back to God's full Truth and away from the strayings man had reached by then.
As a result, those who truely listened, followed and became God's Children, would have to make a bolder stand for God, seeing it was totally based on faith now, without God's direct intervention as in Old Test times.
But, what would happen to God's Children, if all were fully protected as Job was at the start and satan couldn't touch any of us? We'd be like Hezekiah I believe it was, who at first followed God, then later got thinking he accomplished everything on his own, so God chastised him and took most everything from him. When Hezekiah realized he was wrong, he came back to fervently following God again.
All God's Children would then just basically walk away, thinking no more of God, than ants moving around on the ground i never had a need to seek God. Look at the way o many rich people just live life without a care in the world. So rich, nothing can touch them they believe. But, they horde thier time and money only for themselves.
What happens when a rich couple divorces? They fight tooth and nail over the riches. What happens when the parents die? The kids fight over the riches. What good are riches, to live a comfortable physical life, but end up in Hell, penniless and suffering eternally?
I'd rather live with trials and temptations now, without riches- (as I'm not a good steward of money when comes in big lump sums), and grow closer to God and belong to Him, that I don't have to worry about gaining worldly riches, when God rewards my treasure store in Heaven, every time I allow God to lead me thru satan's attacks here in the physical, as an overcomer of such things.
I pray this helps-
God Bless!!
Posted by: GODS Grace
It’s so sad to hear the beautiful people God created believing thing that disagree with scripture and God’s heart towards mankind. Pastor Jerry beautifully covered this topic; Please see…
Why “suffer”? Some people died from bad teeth. Will a loving parent take a child to the dentist when it has a bad tooth? The dentist can cause pain fixing a bad tooth, is the dentist evil or bad? Is the dentist going to pull out healthy teeth? I trust that if a dentist can fix my teeth, than my perfect loving God knows exactly the area of my live that need special attention.
Jobs first reply to the suffering he endured…Job 1:21 “And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.”
Another wonderful thing about Job expresses his honesty towards God similar to Jacob and Abraham. …
Job13:3"But I would speak to the Almighty,
And I desire to argue with God.
Job 13:15"Though He slay me,
I will hope in Him
Nevertheless I will argue my ways before Him.
16"This also will be my salvation,
For a godless man may not come before His presence.
17"Listen carefully to my speech,
And let my declaration fill your ears.
18"Behold now, I have prepared my case;
I know that I will be vindicated.
Job doesn’t except status quo or Job’s accuser saying his suffering is justifiable.
21Remove Your hand from me,
And let not the dread of You terrify me.
22"Then call, and I will answer;
Or let me speak, then reply to me.
Job trusted God. He was Job and is our only hope for help and is not our enemy. Pain was part of the curse after the fall. Jesus learned obedience from the things that he suffer…as an example that conflict is almost never good or bad in itself--what makes it good or bad is how we respond to it. God has answers to conflict if we will be honest with Him and learn to trust his goodness towards us.
Posted by: Christian Commando
Excellent God's Grace, very good. Attitude has everything to do with what we will suffer and why God's Word shows sufferng is for our benefit, look at II Cor. 11:24-28.
Paul speaks of so much suffering he endured of satan, to spread the Gospel. This comes along with being a Child of God and going about the Commission God calls us to, even on a daily basis,- v 28- "Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all Churches."
This is why attitude, as God's Grace refers to, is so important- v 29-30- "Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is offended, and I burn not? 30- If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern my infirmities".
12:7- "And lest I should be exalted above measure thru the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure".
II Tim. 2:9-10- "Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the Word of God is not bound. 10- "Therefore, I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the Salvation, which is in Christ Jesus with eternal Glory".
V 11- "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with Him, weshall also live with Him; 12- If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him;..."
As you can see by the examples I've shared here from God's Word, of which I could show many more, why suffering, tho appearing bad, is actually a good thing for us, as... if we had no reason to suffer, what reason would we have need of God or Christ then, accept of course for our eternal after life existance?
Rather, as with Paul and this - "thorn in the flesh", we see where God was teaching him a lesson in patience, temperance, forgiveness, longsuffering, etc, when he asked God to remove that messenger of satan, 3 times. Yet, God finally told Paul, no, for My Grace is sufficient for thee.
This is why, because God allows satan to attack us, I still believe, suffering is a good thing, as it helps us to grow in God and mature to higher levels in Him. And secondly, it can be an incredible testimony at the deliverance of us from suffering, of God's love, compassion and more for His Children.
Think about this as well- if life went along so perfect for you never getting sick or facing trials or temptations, how much attention would you have towards God, if never needed to seek Him for help or anything else?
God Bless!!
Posted by: hjbigrapids
There is a wonderful lesson in Job about "worldly vision" and "spiritual vision". This just the high points, the trials and tribulations are a part of the book but not the real point.
It is in 1:5 When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send and have them purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.
The second verse is 3:25 What I feared has come upon me; what I dreaded has happened to me.
The final verse is in 42:5 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.
There are a lot of people out there who say they know God and go through a lot of things to show that they do. They go to church and do a lot of churchy things. Yet they never have a relationship with HIM.
Like Job, a lot of these people who know God are good people, some are very prosperous others just prosperous, some struggle. Yet all have heard of God, with their ears, and have a semblance of christianity. Yet once Job "saw" God his life became more than it ever was before.
I am not saying that worldly prosperity is what we will gain but once we see Him our idea of prosperity takes on new meaning. His promise is "seek Him first and the rest will be added to you".
