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The heart of worship

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Posted by: eagle4him

In some churhces three fast songs, then two slow songs are considered praise and worship.

A few years back, the Pastor of the church that Matt Redman (songwriter/ worship leader) attends declared a moratorium on praise and worship. He said that it was beginning to sound fake and too much flesh. It was in that time period that Matt Redman wrote the song, "The heart of worship"!

He talks about coming back to the heart of worship, all about Jesus and not about us. Too many times we make a fleshy attempt to enter the presence of God through slow songs and we fail miserably.

Jesus said in John 4:23 "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks".

Many times in the Old Testament when someone worshipped God they were bowed down on their faces. This is also the case in Revelation 19:4, 19:10 and 22:8. Also in Mathew 28:9.

I think this is what the Lord is saying, that we are to prostrate ourselves before Him in Spirit and in truth. This is a posture of surrender and humility.

What are your thoughts?


Posted by: Christian Commando

eagle4him-

Interesting Bro, but have a question about that. What are we to say to all those of God's Children who like particular forms of praise and worship who would now lose out, if we disount a certain way for what one or a few think is wrong?

God is not limiteed in His ways for us to praise and worship Him, nor should we limit Churches then, in thier ways to praise and worship God, who can provide that which others seek in such variety for everyone being so individual.

Yes, somecome across more traditional by man or other, so what? If it fills a need for some, Amen to that.

My thoghts anyways-

God Bless!!


Posted by: eagle4him

CC,
What is the difference between praise and worship according to your model?


Posted by: Christian Commando

Hey Bro-

Well, its the idea this gentleman you mentioned appears to claim, a couple fast songs and a couple slow ones don't seem to be good enough for praising and worshipping God.

Well, in our church, as the Pastor opened up services at times, we ended up not having any praise and worship till the end and only two, maybe 3 songs, as the Holy spirit took over early and lead us thru an incredibly Spirit guided service of sharing from the start.

I'm just saying, because some Lutheran, some Baptist, some Methodist sects do more traditional pre-set step by step services and have very little praise and worship songs clearly does not say the Holy Spirit isn't there for just as deep and strong of praise and worship as other forms or lengths of them done have. Thats all.

You talked of how he said sometimes we make too fleshly an attempt at praising and worshiping God thru slow songs. Why? Has he not read where God considers one day to Him, lasts 1,000 years for man? Now that is slow timing my friend.

And what about where God speaks of making a joyful noise to the Lord, or to sing a new song unto the Lord, and I could go on with examples- Song of Solomon.

You mentioned how many times people of God of Old Test. times were bowed down for worshiping God. What about David, Solomon and others who danced and sang before the Lord in praise and worship to God?

Let us not let men claim how we are to praise and worship God, but let the Holy Spirit, thru each Church lead us in that. God declares, where two or more are gathered in My Name, I'll be there in thier midst. So He is there and His Spirit is there also.

And I will promise you, no matter what church it is, because it is falable people gathering there, there will undoubtedly, be some who are not deeply into worshipping and praising God, while others there are, very much so. This is in every Church. There is none exempt. Its our nature, that some will experience a deeper connection with God by the Spirit there, while some won't, even if still do to an extent.

Because those variables are as endless as the variety of people in churches for services, we should not speak down of a church that does not show the same movement of the Spirit in it, as seen in another.

As Pastor Jerry has clearly shown, God has a type of Church in Christianity to fit the needs of any of God's Children. The variety and ways God's Spirit demonstrates His presence is profound for that reason.

God Bless!!


Posted by: eagle4him

All good but you have not answered my question. What is the difference between praise and worship, apart from fast and slow songs?


Posted by: Christian Commando

I was simply remarking about the main caption you wrote across the first line, claiming some Churches believe 3 fast and 2 slow songs are considered praise and worship. Some can be.

I've been in Churches too, where there were 8-12 songs of variety were sung and I didn't notice much going on with God's Spirit until one particular song out of the bunch made lightning strike and change the whole Service. They could've left the rest of them and sung only the one to get that result. But thats not important, that we do it is, regardless of how long, short, fast or slow songs are, or numbers of them we sing.

Can anyone claim with assurity of any Church, that the Holy Spirit can't strike over the Service with just one song being sung? Absolutely not.

From the Old Test to the New Test, God shows the wide variety of His moving Spirit upon people, singular to groups in praise and worship for singing, along with actions, as in dancing and more.

Its great the Pastor of that Church was shown by God a change was needed and the head of music was lead to write that song because of that.

But, as a whole, I have to disagree with what you stated in the first line. Thats all, for its just not true. Sure there may be Churches more steeped in man's traditions of God's Word. So what? If they weren't there for those who like that style of service, we'd be alienating parts of the Body of Christ over selfish thinking or beliefs, calling them false or fake, etc. And thats not of God for sure.

No, God clearly declares we are to be respecters of His other Children of thier beliefs, so long as they coincide with God, even if we may believe different.

I suggest the context of the information shared is inline with God when such change is necessary. But I suggest the main focal point expressed for why, at the start, is not.

Using patterns we've seen used in God's Word as reasoning for something being wrong is out of context to God.

You can see a great deal of praising and worshipping of God from singulars to the whole community in Exodus with Moses leading the Jews. Not to mention God later declaring special Holy Days and festivals etc in Leviticus for them. Those were to be celebrations for particular reasons of God for man. Then you have as mentioned before, David, Solomon among others for single people.

But, keep in mind what happened when stupidity reigned over the Isrealites and they were dumb enough to forget what God did and start complaining.

I pray this helps you understand better. One instance in one Church does not set the peramiters for all (or some), churches as the first line expressed, appears to dictate. Neither you nor I can judge any other Church on the basis of what happened in one Church specifically.

God Bless my friend!!


Posted by: guardianangel

Hi eagle4him,
When I think of praise and worship, I think of David dancing before the Lord with so much gusto that it upset his wife. Somehow, I don't think that the music was slow when this occurred. I may be wrong, and when I get to heaven, I will ask about that- one of the many questions that I have.

But, on the same token, who can (or will) hinder or limit the Lord. When He chooses to move in a service, I have seen it transpire without any music at all.

Just some thoughts.


Posted by: eagle4him

We differ because of our experiences.

What about the difference between praise and worship?


Here's what God says about some praise and worship"
Amos 5:21
""I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies."

Amos 8:10
I will turn your religious feasts into mourning and all your singing into weeping. I will make all of you wear sackcloth and shave your heads. I will make that time like mourning for an only son and the end of it like a bitter day.

I'll write more later. there is another scripture where God says He dislikes the noise and clanging of cymbals.

God bless!


Posted by: Christian Commando

Dear Brother in Christ-

Why would you assume such things? If you have visited every Church across this Country alone and can make such a statement as you have by clear afirmation, I am wrong. If not, how have I called you a liar?

You know as well as I do my friend, only God can make such a rightceous judgement of such a situation, unless what I mentioned above has been done. For the years of study and research I've done on religions, Churchs etc, that can only be used in context to the areas I've personally dealt with them, as all Christian main line religions have other divisons (sects) broken away from them.

As such, they all go thru services slightly different. Even some in the same sect. Therefore, a consensis such as you have brought up, could not be accuraate, for such a wide variety seen.

Yes eagle, concerning your Amos references. But, notice from chapters 1-5 the transgressions that mounted up to those you mentioned- 1:3,6,9,11,13- 2:1,4,6.

But look at 4:10-11. Notice God is speaking of those of the Jews who did evil and not come back to God when chastised. The above is why God declared He hated thier feasts and cannot stand thier assemblies. It was not because they sang a few songs fast or slow and supposedly fake or false.

I beg to differ with you concerning the unanswered question. It was. I clearly showed why I disagreed with your explaination of things. Forgive me if you took that offensive.

As usaul, it was not mean't that way, nor have I judged you, but what was said- the "Fruit" not the person. And you were the one to ask for thoughts on the subject, therefore, I ask you realize your responcibility in staying civil and "Christ-like" in these exchanges, for the benefit of those who visit here, that we can both demonstrate a "Christ-like" manner in our exchanges.

As for your assessment of my needing to be right, I suggest thats inaccurate. As for all my years of past Ministry up to and including now, I've only ever shared insights, as God lead me or guided me to.

Remember, this is a God ordained and guided Prayer Board where a "Christ-like" manner is to be demonstrated. Let us please keep it as such.

guardianangel-

You are quite accurate in your assessments. Yes, David did sing a more upbeat way, as well as dance with exuberance. But, as you noted, there are a variety, which was trying to be expressed here, to show, we cannot judge all or even some Churches- (of the whole), without personal experience, and even then, when visiting other churches, not everyone can feel the same level of movement of God in them as others can.

So, some people will assume God isn't moving in a particulr Church as much if at all, compared to some others, even tho God may touch only a select number having gone to that Church, in a greater way than others, as it was thier chosen time by God to be touched or affected as needed. Thus, God's movement in that Church may not be as evident for those who don't need the greater touch.

God Bless!!


Posted by: eagle4him

True praise and worship begins with thanksgiving. It starts in the outer court, under natural sunlight. We give thanks for the visible, the things God has already done for us.

Then it moves into the outer court, which is lit by candlesticks. We give genuine praise and honor to God for the things we cannot see, we call things that be not as though they were. We cleanse ourselves in the basin of His world, we ask for forgiveness of all transgressions and sin, and we put on new robes of righteousness to prepare to enter into the inner court.

The veil has been torn, and we now enter in the holy of holies, into His glorious presence. We prepare our hearts first, and offer the censor of our prayer that creates a smoke screen that keeps the flesh from being consumed. It also masks the smell of flesh, as no flesh can stand in the presence of God.

Here in the holy of holies, as our spirits commune in truth, we speak not a word. We are one with the creator, we hear His very own heart beat and we commune in the spirit. His glory heals our bodies, His holiness drives away anything and everything that goes against His word. All the enemies of the cross flee.

Thank You Lord for authentic praise and true worship. We were born and destined to worship You in spirit and in truth. Let everything that has breat give You praise, and may everyone that hears Your voice bow down in worship.

We love You Lord.

(I was going to add about 12 scriptures here, but this is the only one that copied. Thank You, Holy Spirit!)

Mark 7:7
' BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'


Posted by: Christian Commando

Hey Bro-

Very eloquent descriptive of the process. I concurr to the extent some people may need to go thru that process. But, since the New Covenant era where we find the Holy Spirit dwelling within each Child of God, from my experiences of viewing services, some may need to go thru a preparatory process to get into praise and worship mood, while others are there in a snap of the fingers.

Be it a drawn out process or being able to do it very quickly, depends upon God's knowing each of His Children and how best He knows they will be in true praise and worship mindset, according to the Holy Spirit's prompting of them into it.

The way you described it above is most certainly not the only way for everyone to come into a true and proper expectancy and mood for praise and worship of God, tho that is one process.

In all Truth of God, if read His Word carefully, praise and worship of Him in this New Covenant era is not limited only to during services. It is to be done all day every, examples-

Praising and thanking God for another day of life to serve Him, for work, for income, for a home to come to, for food, on and on. As Apostle Paul; declares- praising and thanking God in all things.

Now, I don't about where you live, but in all honesy, I hadn't been in one Church of all the variety of denominations and sects of them here, who didn't show some level of respect to God and seeking the Holy Spirit's moving, by offering thanksgiving at some point, for thier gathering together and to help them become ready to recieve, at the start of thier service, that which He has for each one there.

That comes across to me as thanking God- (offering thanksgiving). And I admit I have my likes and dislikes about types of services. And I assure you, whenever I'm not of the greatest liking of a particular Church Service, that puts me at a disadvantage, for it stifles the Holy Spirit's ability to have a greater effect upon me during that service.

Thats my own fault, no one else's. I'm not offended by the service, just don't enjoy them as I could make the choice to do. If I don't, then I won't feel a greater moving of the Holy Spirit during that service or over me, as I've stifled or hindered Him myself

But also, I'd witnessed messages given before praise and worship starts in some, to ask God to prepare them for praising and worshipping Him and bringine them into His presence.

So, my question to you is, whats this thing you have against praise and worship with only a few songs, be they fast or slow, knowing the Holy Spirit, as God guides Him, to move as directed in each church over each fellowship gathering, as God knows best, not you, or me or anyone else, for each Church?

Seeing as how you claimed "some" of them are fake or false as according to your first original statement made- "In some Churches thre fast songs, then two slow songs are considered praise and worship". Again I say- "so what"?

Because a person can Quench or stifle the Holy Spirit as described above to hinder His ability to interact with them, they will not feel how strong a movement of God's Spirit is in a Church and thus can think it is not a very strong God guided one. When its them, not the Church, that is at fault for this.

Thus, it is clear, none of God's children should speak down about any other gathering or Church, or service, when we do not know thier motives, leadership or fellowship. And the only way to learn that, is spending lots of time at those Churches, of which I spent better than 20 years of attending services at them all, in this area, to learn the true driving force behind all these Churches and was actually pleasantly supprised to find God directing all of them, but thru specific callings He had given each one.

Thru His guidance of them, the types of services were as diverse as the cultural and working backrounds of fellowships regularly attending them, all Holy Spirit guided, yet different, which provided God ways to fill needs of both the surrounding towns and country areas.

I changed my attitude of viewing Churches from thinking some were going down the drain, to realizing God can move and act thru Churches in ways I cannot see, when so narrowly focused on specific limiting aspects. As such, in that respect, we have no right to claim fast or slow songs bring a Church to fail miserably at praise and worship.

God Bless!!


Posted by: eagle4him

I have absolutely nothing against praise and worship. I love it and live for it! I am only against religious regulations that hinder true praise and worship.

We are commanded by the truth of the gospel to point out what is true and what is fake, what is of God and what is fabricated by man. That, my friend, is the gift of discernment which is desperately lacking today.

Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it right! I am not saying that I am right. I do enjoy praise and worship, but God wants more from us than just a few songs.

There is much more to worship than singing, dancing and following New Testament prescriptions of man.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever and will not change to allow anything less than our best.

The true worshipers will worship in spirit and truth.

God bless!


Posted by: Christian Commando

eagle4him-

Thats great, wonderful. But may I ask one last question?

Now, according to what you claim, you've apparently witnessed a lacking in some Churches of your area, on this topic. Ok, fine. Now the question-

You have come on here and spoke out about your beliefs and what you've apparently witnessed, but, have you, when in those Churches witnessing such things, approached the leadership of them about this? If so, what was the reaction?

Yes my friend, we are commanded to do so. But not to outsiders, but to those doing the wrong. When you read Paul's letters to the Corinth Church, he is inspired by God to correct them in thier wrongs. When writing to Timothy, Paul is not gossiping about those Churches or maligning them, but instructing Timothy how to help the Churches, explaining sound Godly doctrine to Timothy, to stand on, to teach them further.

You can be sure, when the Apostles gathered and spoke of thier dealings with the Churches and travels, they did not speak down about them, but shared geuine loving concerns of what was going on in order to produce profitable prayers over the Churches and for inspiration from God for speaking loving correction to them. After all, what could any of them say rightceously against a Church of falable people, knowing they had to go thru a growth and understanding period too to be where they were?

As John the Baptist spoke and all the Apostles demonstrate in thier writings to thier respective recipients, it does no good to sit and malign other members of the "Body", and never saying anything to those members directly about the problems witnessed or shared about.

Rather than speak down outside of them to others about such things, go to them and express this same Truth to them to help them correct the lackings you see in thier thinking or operating.

Have you done that?

Discernment and sharing true insights are one thing, gossiping and maligning are another. If those people haven't approached those they see wrong in and said anything, let them not speak ill of them as well to anyone else. For God shows how we are just as guilty of wrong doing as those we may speak down about, if we say nothing to them and leave them going as they are.

Your right, Christ does say that. But, can you honestly say the motives of said Churches you talked about were not God guided in thier fake or false services?

My best friend from high School became a Youth Pastor years ago, But, about 10-12 years ago, he got connected with a false bunch that were claiming to be Christians, yet intermixing abominable practices and God's Word together.

After coming to a Sister Church of my old one back then, I witnessed several of these false practices. I approached him about them. Tho I shared Scripture directly from God's word, he claimed a false spiritualized version to believe they were acceptable.

I kept working with him for a time and warned the Pastor of that Church it was a false revival. She did not believe it either. Within a year after I'd left the area, my other friend, the music worship leader of that Church was warned by God to leave and did. Shortly after that, the Church fell thru, it was closed down.

The original Pastor removed my friend and his bunch and cleaned up and restraitened the doctrine again and it started to grow. Now, the Pastor is gone and a younger one has taken thier place. It is now flourishing again.

Now my best friend finally realized he was accepting lies too after that and got rid of that bunch. His Ministry turned around and is overblowing in Blessing since coming back to true sound Godly Doctrine.

You know, when first approached them about it, they all thought I was nuts, not taking Scripture right, as I based thier false revival on witchcraft. I showed the books on witchcraft research to that music leader friend to show them identical practices this bunch had brought in.

Then I checked my friend and his bunch out and found they'd been first accepted, but later kicked out of two other Churches before our Sister Church.

Notice what I did tho my friend, God gave me the discernment to know something was wrong, but I went alot further into checking things out and trying to do something about it. Another Church I was called to seen similar things and I took the nearly identical process to help them. I didn't just visit and assume, I spent enough time as God showed me situations to help that Church over so much time as well. so, it had nothing to do with people being friends, but God''s love for people He gave me and wanting His Blessing over them and thier Church.

And I'd go that distance again or fuirther if God called me to for another Church, person, and you too if needed, because I love you as much as I love all others that same way.

God Bless my dear Bro in Christ!!


Posted by: eagle4him

CC,
I have told leadership about my concerns, and the response has been in at least two case, "If you don't like it here, go somewhere else"!

Religion does not want to change. Pride won't allow it.

I used the Old Testament example of how Thanksgiving, praise and worship was done as the priests entered into the temple, as a way, types and shadows, of the New Testament worship experience.

Matt Reddman is a great songwriter, and I love the song, "The heart of worship".

I'm going back to the heart of worship, and it's all about You (Jesus), it's all about You. I'm sorry, Lord, for the things I've made it...and it's all about You, it's all about You...

Brian, I'm sorry if I have offended you.

But in your own opinion, what is the difference between praise and worship?


Posted by: GODS Grace

Hello Eagle, I'm not sure what you are fishing for? "What is the difference between praise and worship?" But it seems to me that God doesn't intend for worship to a lists of does and don't that will create divisions...never mind me...anyways...
Have you hear about this year's Power of the Cross Festival in Austin to reach our community? Also, Our church in Austin is moving toward a 24/7 open intercession and worship forum similar to IHOP in Kansas City. Thought I'd mention it... with your interest for praise and worship.

Could I share something on this topic of "praise and worship?"
This statement from my fifteen year old daugher took me by suprise. She asked me to change the song on the christian radio. I ask her why she was offended by the "christian song"?
She replied,"That song first came out through secular media and talked about loving a girl. It doesn't seem right. You can't even tell if they are talking about loving God or not."

I pray the Holy Spirit will allow this generation to clearly communicate the Gospel message of the cross to the younger generation. May the Holy Spirit give this next generation new wine skins to continue the gospel message. Luke 5:37-38 says, “And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.”

God Bless! Grace


Posted by: Christian Commando

hehe, eagle4him, I suggest there is a misunderstanding on my part toward your questin of the difference of praise and worship. Correct me if wrong, but suspect, your asking me what I believe is different between the two? Is that right?

Secondly, I had tried to reson to your PM sent me, but the last one I sent told me your PM list is full and it won't go thru. Let me know about my question above and think, if I'm now right in my assumption, I can answer as you've requested.

God Bless my dear friend!!


Posted by: eagle4him

CC,
I did not mean to start a war or division. I apologize. I think I know what the dirrerence is, but I think a lot of people do not. Have you noticed how dedicated the Muslims are to their worship? I am not in any way suggesting that we follow them!

They are commited to their worship.

God is worthly of all of our praises! Everything that has breath will give the Lord praise! The Lord inhabits the praises of His people.

Worship, to me, is what takes place after praise, as if praise is the beginning of intimacy. Worship to me is intimacy with the Holy Spirit.

Singing, dancing and jumping up and down, while good are not the sign of true worship. This takes place at rock and roll concerts without any hint of the presence of God! Do you see what I am trying to say?


Posted by: Christian Commando

eagle4him-

No problem, it was simply a case of your being worn out from so many things going on. Don't fret it Bro. Your a good man of God and son to God. We all have our moments.

As for the Muslims, yes, I have, but you'll find, if study all other Cult religions, they are all very strict on thier followers for the praising and worshiping of thier false gods. But, you should probably understand, that this happens, for the leadership to have more control over thier followers.

The documentations I have, on audio and video tapes besides paperwork, all converts from Cults to Christianity, say that, that strictness, was to eventually get followers to dedicate everything they are and have, to the false religion. Thus, it comes down to the people mostly becoming brainwashed into robot type people.

Well, your right about that, one form, when done as often as should be by us, brings us into a closer more intimate relationship with God, as well as following His Word. As I consider doing as much as we can to follow His Word is a form of praise and worship both.

To me, Praise is an inward total belief in my heart and mind, of God, and the inward to outward evidence seen of that belief thru speech and physical works, as His Word directs of us to do daily. Worship, is pretty much the same, except its a thanking of God by putting my whole heart and mind into sharing to others or along with others, my appreciation for what He has done for me and all others, be it in testimony, song, dance or other worship activities, to show my faith in God.

I know enough people who claim to be Christians, by head knowledge of His Word, doing things according to It, going to Church, etc, but have not the understanding of Salvation. Now, works don't save, so, this must go beyond just having a belief, but also having true faith.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Thus, it shows while hearing It, we must first believe, but that belief must turn into Faith as well. This happens only by the Holy Spirit producing that "Faith", upon hearing and first believing. Acts 10:44-48. V 44 shows the Holy Spirit fell upon those who believed- (believed in thier hearts, thus the Holy Spirit gave them the "Faith" to do this).

Your right, Praise is the beginning, but should still, daily, be ongoing. While I realize the wilder music causes a stir of nonacceptance, what can we say about some of God's people noted in the Bible such as David getting into faster enthusiastic singing and dancing his wife got irritated over, besides I believe Solomon had his moment as well, among others?

I see it this way- secular rock music plays at a volume, where its very hard to hear the message shared. Yet when can hear the message, its always of darkness of some kind. But, Christian praise and worship music of rock style, is maybe just as wild, but is lower volume and you can hear the message plainly. At least those I've heard.

As such, not only has God provided slower songs for those who praise and worship for more solomn quieter people, but music at medium volume and tempo for those of more medioker praise and worship, and faster louder music for those who like lively upbeat praise and worship, which includes younger people to fit more thier way of wanting to praise and worship God.

Some I've heard say, the faster louder music in Christianity is based off of the secular rock movement. I disagree because of well known examples milleniums before now, where God showed some wilder, louder or noisier praise and worship of Him thru others in His Word.

My suggestion to anyone having a preference is, seek out a Church where they experience a moving of God for them, with theier style of praise and worship and message service they like, where God can feed them, and they will recieve better from God, seeing thier needs met as such.

God Bless!!


Posted by: JeriRose12

I thought worship was our entire lifestyle -- not just a song.

"Heart of Worship" is a slow song, so obviously it is not about finding fault with slow songs.

I think there is a lot more worship in many of the hymns than in some of the modern music. Many of the hymns were much more Biblical.

What bothers me about some of the singers, today, is the suggestive moves they make or way they sing. . . .A few years ago, John Fischer wrote a piece in CCM magazine where he said he was listening to the Christian station and he thought his car radio might melt down from the way the woman was singing. . . .There is a lof of flesh in todays music! But, currently, a group of praise and worship singers is coming forward that is refreshingly Spirit enfused. I see less and less flesh than a few years ago.

~JeriRose~