Pages: 1
Baptism--Outward sign, or requirement?
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)
Posted by: eagle4him
I have heard it preached that baptism by water is an outward sign, not a requirement. I want to explore the scriptures to come to a better understanding.
Mark 16: 15-18 (NASB)
And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." --JESUS
Mark 1: 4-9 (NASB)
John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins. John was clothed with camel's hair and wore a leather belt around his waist, and his diet was locusts and wild honey. And he was preaching, and saying, "After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
The Baptism of Jesus
In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Romans 6: 3-5
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection...
Posted by: Christian Commando
Good Eagle4him-
God shows water baptism is a "ceremonial Law". For the Jews, Jesus declares "be baptized for the remission of sins and recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost."
For Gentiles, God still commands us to be baptised, yet as seen in Acts 10 and other places in Scripture, water baptism is not required in the same way or process as with Jews
This is different for each, as Jews were God's "First Chosen", who rejected Christ, and seen in Christ's teaching to them of Salvation, its slightly different.. But Gentiles, at that time, were still considered "pagans". Question that? Why then, did Jesus only visit those towns which were Jewish settlements and not Gentile settlements?
Because Jews rejected Christ when here, now they are to show the outward sign of thier alegience to God first- (water baptism), where Gentiles can go thru this sign of allegience at any time, its not required first.
And there are disputes over how it should be done- sprinkling over the head, pouring over the head, or full body emersion.
Makes no difference. The important thing? Is that we do it because God commands us to, for showing our committment to God and Christ.
God Bless!!
Posted by: eagle4him
There are two sacraments as instituted by Jesus, if my memory serves me correctly. They are (1) water baptism--immersion not sprinkling and (2) communion.
They are not necessary for salvation.
Posted by: Christian Commando
Yes, for those who consider it that way. I prefer to look at water baptism as a command, not sacrament, for any who become God's Children to openly show thier committment of thier faith in Christ.
Communion is more a "sacrament", as something done repeatatively in rememberance of Him- Christ, as He commanded us to do.
Water Baptism is a one time expected command to be follwed, where Communion is an ongoing repeated command of Christ.
And, "sacrament" is usaully only refered to as the bread and juice used in Communion services, such as "the Sacraments".
But, within all Christian religions, you'll notice quite a variety of what they consider- "sacraments", or, most important, repeated procedures, as dictated in God's Word to be done.
And for each one, such as Communion, some religions do it weekly, some evey couple weeks, some each Month, others less often.
I won't claim to say any way its done as such is right or wrong for more often or less, anymore than I will speak against the particular way in which "water Baptism" is done.
Being a "Ceremonial Law", its not important the way in which its done, but the fact it is, for outwardly proving our open committment to Christ. Thats what is important.
Now, when it comes to open and closed Communion, one is Biblically correct, the other not. "Open Communion" is Biblically correct. You'll see in God's Word, all Chritians who came to the Church were allowed to be involved. Those Churches or religions that close thier Communion Services to only Church Members, are out of context to God.
Again tho, I will not speak ill of them, as it is thier choice how to institute and go thru that particular Command of God.
One major point to consider is, we need to be careful when reading the 4 Books of the Gospel. Jesus Christ came mostly to speak to the Jews- "First Chosen". And He only went around to Jewish settlements, never any "pagan"- Gentile ones.
Thus, we must realize, when Jesus taught, He was focused more towards the Jews, while also instituting some understandings for Gentiles. But, the door of Salvation for Gentiles, came thru Peter, starting more in the Book of Acts.
Thus, as we read Christ's Teachings, we have to learn how to notice how He shares He has, in some cases, made direct commands in specific ways, mean't only for Jews- example- Recieving Salvation- Notice Jesus Himself was "water baptized" first, before the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in the form of a dove- Matt. 1:9-10, and how people were to baptized for the remission of sins, to recieve the Gift of the Holy Spirit.
This is not the same order in which Gentiles need to recieve Salvation- Acts 10:41-48, (v43)- showing those who believe in Christ shall recieve remission of sins. No mention of water baptism to be done first, as was with Jews by Christ. But, Peter asked other Jews with him there, if water baptism could be refused to those showing they'd recieved the Holy Spirit just as they had.
God Bless!!
Posted by: eagle4him
I have to disagree with the statement that Jesus and Peter were preaching to the Jews. First of all Abraham, the father of our faith was not even a Jew. God decided to make him a great nation and to bless all the nations of the earth through him. Jesus whole intent was conversion--from non Jew to a new family not of or from Israel. This would be His adopted family.
Second on the day of Pentecost, people were gathered from all over the world. (Acts 2). There were a number of races and nationalities represented.
The commandment from Peter for baptism was 1. repent 2. be baptized in Jesus name for the remission of sins 3. be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Posted by: Christian Commando
Hi Bro-
First where do you get that Peter was preaching to the Jews? Jesus yes, as proven in Scriptures, Jesus never went intentionally on his own into Gentile or Samaritan settlements. He only went in to speak with Gentiles when they approached Him or invited Him in. Yes, there were gentiles who heard Jesus preach, but Jesus came mostly for the Jews. Read the prophecies about Him in Old Test. He came first for the Jew, then also for the Grafted Branch- (Gentile). (New Test. as well).
But i clearly state above, Jesus gave Peter the keys to open the door of Salvation to the Gentiles. So, my question is, what does Abraham have to do with this conversation? i never mentioned him.
Thats right my friend concerning Peters commandment. But, look at that order of Salvation preached by him in Acts 2, compared to towards gentiles in Acts 10.
We must keep in mind, Jesus never gave the "keys" to Peter to open salvation to the Gentiles until Acts 10:9-17, right? So, Peter was not yet commanded by Christ to preach to Gentiles as yet. thats the reason for the order of aspects of Salvation being preached different on Pentecost, compared to Acts 10.
Thus, Peter was still only aimed mostly towards Jews on Pentecost, but they were allowed to accept Gentile converts, just as Jesus had, as those few who demonstrated the faith, were accepted by Christ.
10:44- "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."
so tell me, how could they have repented, then been water baptised first, if v 47 shows they had not been water baptised yet?
But now, back to Abraham. since you brought him up, who says he was not a Jew? He was the first one. Why? What group of people did God make the covenant of circumcision with? Jews, right? Who did God start that covenant with? Abraham, right?
Jews were the only group to ever have and be bound to, "circumcision", no other groups.
Ask yourself this then- How could God have chosen Abraham to be the founding father of the Jews, 1- if he wasn't one already? And 2- If Abraham were a pagan, God would never ever have made a covenant with him.
As they were rejects thru Old Test. times. Abraham came from the blood line of Seth, who was born to replace Abel, the child of Adam who had offered correct sacrifice, where the pagan line came from Cain's blood line, as he offered by satanic pride, the wrong offering for sacrifice, and then killed thru "envy" of his brother, another Satanic influence.
Oh, one last note.- If you pay close attention, you'll notice where, in Peter's and Paul's travels, they preached to both Gentiles and Jews, as according to the races of people found in the Gentile settlements they were lead to by God.
Secondly- You'll find also, where because Jews were God's "First Chosen" People, when water Baptism was preached to Jews, you'll always see where they are to repent and be baptised, for the remission of sins and recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost. They were to do it in that order, unlike Gentiles, because they as God's first chosen, had rejected Christ and saught His crucifixtion.
And since this was missed from my last post apparently- Jesus Himself a Jew, was water baptised first before the Holy Spirit came upon Him in the form of a dove.
think about these things Bro.
God Bless!!
Posted by: eagle4him
Abraham definitely was not a Jew. Jews were from the tribe of Judah, many years after Abraham's time. Abraham was from the land of Ur, a Chaldean. Where did you inject pagan from?
As far as Peter preaching to the Jews it is evident in Acts 2:
When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
"Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, (converts to Judaism)
Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
heaven.
Peter received his instructions from the Lord. Paul never walked directly with Jesus, but in Acts 19 Paul re-baptized the converts the correct way, in Jesus name. There is no evidence that he did this any differently anywhere else.
Anyway my friend, so as not to go too far down a rabbit trail, here is an expert teaching on these matters. Read the scriptures, pray about them and ask the Lord to reveal truth through His Holy Spirit. That is what I did. And I am glad I did it.
The Formula for Baptism --taken from Word Aflame Tract, "Why we baptize in Jesus name" #6109, upc--permission to reproduce for this prayer board is pending
The Formula for Baptism
1. Jesus commanded His disciples to "teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19). He did not command them to use these words as a formula, but He commanded them to baptize in "the name." The word name is used here in the singular, and it is the focal point of the baptismal command. The titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost describe God's relationships to humanity and are not the supreme, saving name described here, which is Jesus. "Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
Jesus is the name in which the roles of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are revealed. The angel of the Lord instructed Joseph, "She shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21). Jesus said, "I am come in my Father's name," and, "The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,...the Father will send in my name" (John 5:43; 14:26). Thus by baptizing in the name of Jesus, we honor the Godhead. "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9).
Luke 24:45-47 records that just before His ascension, Jesus opened the disciples' understanding. It was necessary that their understanding be opened, and many today need this same operation in order to understand the Scriptures. Then Jesus said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day." The disciples had their understanding opened so that they could grasp the vast importance of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Verse 47 describes the commission that Jesus then gave: "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations [Jews and Gentiles], beginning at Jerusalem."
Peter was one of that number to whom Jesus had spoken and whose understanding had been opened. After having listened to these instructions, a few days later he was inspired by the Holy Ghost to preach on the Day of Pentecost. The hearts of the hearers were pierced and, feeling condemned, they cried out to Peter and the other apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37). Peter did not hesitate but boldly answered, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38). "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized, and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls" (Acts 2:41).
Some say that Peter told them to be baptized in Jesus' name because they were Jews and this baptism was to make them acknowledge Jesus Christ. But let us go with Peter to the house of Cornelius several years later. Cornelius and his household were Gentiles, yet there again Peter "commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord" (Acts 10:48). (Most translations actually say, "In the name of Jesus Christ.") If Peter was wrong on the Day of Pentecost, he surely had ample time to be corrected before he went to the house of Cornelius.
Was Peter wrong on the Day of Pentecost? When the hearers were prickled in their hearts, they spoke to Peter and to the rest of the apostles (Acts 2:37). This included Matthew, who wrote Matthew 28:19. Moreover, when Peter preached, he stood up with the eleven Acts 2:14). Matthew was there, yet we find no words of correction from him. He surely would have spoken up if Peter had disobeyed the Lord. But all the apostles understood and carried out the Lord's commission. As Jesus said in prayer, "I have manifested thy name unto the men [the apostles] which thou gavest me out of the world...and they have kept thy word" (John 17:6).
The Samaritans, who were not Jews, were also baptized in the name of Jesus. Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them...."But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.... They were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" (Acts 8:5, 12, 16).
Let us see how Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, baptized. He went to Ephesus many years after the Day of Pentecost and found some disciples of John the Baptist there. "He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" (Acts 19:2-5). Although these disciples had already been baptized, the name of Jesus was so important as to cause them to be rebaptized in His name.
We do not believe that Paul changed the formula or mode of baptism when he baptized Lydia and her household (Acts 16:14-15) or the Philippian jailer. The latter came trembling and fell down before Paul and Silas, saying, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And he took them the same hour of the night [shortly after midnight], and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway" (Acts 16:30-33). How can we doubt that Paul baptized these people using the same mode and formula that he used elsewhere, that is, immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ?
Paul was not with the apostles when Jesus gave his finial instructions to them in Matthew 28:19 and Luke 24:47, yet Paul baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. How did he know what to do? He said that his gospel was not a tradition of men but a revelation from God. "I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ" (Galatians 1:11-12). Paul was chosen to bear Jesus' name to the Gentiles, and he wrote many divinely inspired epistles to the church. To this apostle, God revealed the mystery of the church, "which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" (Ephesians 3:5). Paul claimed to have divine authority: "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (I Corinthians 14:37). And Paul wrote, Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him" (Colossians 3:17). Water baptism is done in both word and deed. We cannot afford to overlook this command to the church.
The church is "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone" (Ephesians 2:20). The apostles not only preached baptism in Jesus' name, but they practiced it. Nowhere can we find that they baptized using the words "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Instead, we find them baptizing in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. In baptizing in Jesus' name, they fulfilled the command of the Lord in Matthew 28:19.
Paul said, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8). Let this be a solemn warning to us.
Some say that they will accept the words of Jesus in Matthew 28:19 but not those of Peter in Acts 2:38. But Peter spoke on the Day of Pentecost under the anointing of the Holy Ghost. Peter was one of the apostles, and to him had been given the keys of the kingdom, so we have no right to discredit his words.
In Mark 7:8 Jesus said, "Laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men." History tells us that it was not until many years after the apostles that the mode and formula of baptism in the name of Jesus Christ were changed. (See Hastings' Dictionary of the Bible, vol. 1, p.241.) Which means more to you, the command of the Lord or the tradition of men?
Posted by: Christian Commando
Dear friend Eagle4him-
1- You misread the Scriptures, look at the wording in Gen. 11:31- Terah took Abram and the others... "and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees,"
The words state "from Ur [of] the Chaldees." That is not saying they were Chaldeans, only that they were living in Ur "of" the Chaldees and left that area. Does that mean the Jews were no longer Jews but Egyptians since living so long under thier captivity, or they were Babylonians, Medes or Persians, Greeks or Romans then too?
No my friend it does not. Just because Terah and family settled in Chaldee does not make them that race or nationality. (Note Acts 2:5, 8-11.) This shows even tho Jews were living in other nations, they were still Jews."devout Jews" at that.
Acts 2- Actually, now that I've re-read the whole run of Scriptures, your right. Peter and the others were speaking to Jews that were born of Jewish descent in other nations. Thats why they were speaking in other tongues, but still to Jews.
Forgive me Bro, my mistake hehe.
Yes, those outside of Jews were past pagan people and you know Scriptures tell us that thru out the Old Test. Thats why God kept telling His "First Chosen" not to do as the pagans do or live or believe as they do.
uh, I think your mistaken about Acts 19- you see, Paul did not "rebaptist" them towards the "correct one", but he was fulfilling the command the apostles were given to do from Pentecost on.
John the Baptist was brought in by God, to pave the way for Christ, baptising in water, not in spirit. It would be from Pentecost on, it would be by spirit. But, for the months before Jesus showed up, people were being water baptised by John first, to show thier public committment to christ.
So, the "baptism" Paul did, was not water baptism, but a prayer of Baptism of the Holy Ghost over people who'd only had water baptism. They never needed water baptism again, only spiritual baptism.
Paul was never "correcting" anything, but adding to what had already been done. Otherwise, what as the use of God having John come ahead to do what he did for God and Christ, if it had to be corrected later? So... not true.
Bro- Thats a very nice submission you made from that tract, but you know the rules, you need permission first, you can't print it then wait for permission. We can be in trouble if they deny the request, for allowing such a thing.
I will be brnging this up to Administration just so we will be covered. You know better Bro.
God Bless!!