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Bankruptcy is it a sin or Grace.

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Posted by: JG

I have had many people write me this year about Bankruptcy.

They wanted to know if they could get to heaven if they did not pay back the debt and filed bankruptcy.

Some of them have been told that they cannot get into heaven until they pay off the debt. Because Jesus said leave the altar and make things right with your brother first.

I have some thoughts...
What do you guys think.

Pastor Jerry
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Bankruptcy and the Bible - Is Bankruptcy Moral?

Nehemiah 10:31b:
"Every seven years we will let our fields rest, and we will cancel all debts." - Contemporary English Version

Deuteronomy 15:1-2:
"Every seven years you must announce, "The LORD says loans do not need to be paid back." Then if you have loaned money to another Israelite, you can no longer ask for payment. - Contemporary English Version

"At the end of every seventh year you must cancel your debts. This is how it must be done. Creditors must cancel the loans they have made to their fellow Israelites. They must not demand payment from their neighbors or relatives, for the LORD's time of release has arrived. - New Living Translation

Forgive Us Our Debts as We Forgive Our Debtors

Dalton Camp proclaimed several years ago that, “having lost its value, money may no longer be the root of all evil; credit having taken its place.” This statement demonstrates the paradox of modern day religion and debt - should our reaction be one of condemnation or one of compassion? Since many recent and well-respected studies have shown that the average American family is only three weeks away from personal bankruptcy, and new legislation that will deny bankruptcy relief to hundreds of thousands of American families is now the law, it is time to revisit what the Bible teaches us about debt.

The Bible makes it clear that people are generally expected to pay their debts. Leviticus 25:39. No one should advance any argument against that. However, the moral and legal obligation to pay debts must be balanced by the need for compassion and the ability to cancel debts at periodic intervals. The Biblical basis for such ideas is based on the sabbatical and Jubilee years. The secular basis arises out of the Constitutional requirement that Congress enact uniform laws allowing businesses and consumers to cancel and to restructure debt obligations. The Biblical support for the legal right to cancel debt is enforced by the even stronger Biblical doctrine that prohibited interest OF ANY AMOUNT rather than the excessive interest we see today from the credit card industry.

The Old Testament is full of examples of the compassionate treatment of the poor, and with the preservation of the family unit. These goals were superior to the material concerns of repayment of debt.

For instance, Deuteronomy 15:7-10 is particularly forceful. It reads: “If there is a poor man among your brothers...do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother. Rather be open-handed and freely lend him whatever he needs. Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near," so that you show ill toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hands to."

The cancellation of debt in the Old Testament was done at specific intervals. Deuteronomy 15:1-2 clearly provides for such legislative release with the following language: “At the end of every seven years you shall grant a release. And this is the manner of the release: every creditor shall release what he has lent to his neighbor, his brother, because the Lord’s release has been proclaimed”. Under this Biblical model, the debtors’ payment or non-payment of debts was not in question. The debtors may or may not have been responsible for their debts. It was a strict model with no “means test” or detailed analysis of every debt.* And, while Old Testament lenders were admonished to be merciful, debts were canceled every seven years whether they liked it or not. The Old Testament model can therefore be legitimately applied to modern day bankruptcy laws. The principle is that, while taken seriously, debt can be canceled to achieve some higher purpose - such as the preservation of the family unit. (Interestingly, Deuteronomy 15:12-13 also declares that slaves should be freed every seven years, creating an interesting analogy between the creditor-debtor and the master-servant relationship.)

The Biblical use of the term “usury” corresponds to our modern word "interest" rather than to the notion of “excessive interest” to which we generally apply the term usury today. Only a small number of us would seriously question the morality of profiting from a loan at normal interest rates. However, the Talmud quotes an ancient rabbi as saying: “It is better to sell your daughter into slavery than to borrow money on interest.” The Lord only knows what this same rabbi would say today if confronted with credit cards bearing interest rates of 34.99% and higher and with some “pay day” lenders demanding annual rates in excess of 2,000%.

The Biblical doctrine of usury rests primarily on three texts: Exodus 22:25; Leviticus 25:35; and Deuteronomy 23:19-20. Exodus and Leviticus prohibit loans of money or food with interest to a needy brother or sister or even a resident alien. Deuteronomy forbids taking interest from any person. Other Books of the Bible underline the importance of this prohibition on interest. For example, Psalm 15:5 characterizes a righteous man as one who, among other things, “lends his money without usury.” Both Ezekiel 22:12 and Nehemiah 5:0-11 condemn lending money with interest, especially to the poor. And Ezekiel 18:13 list the taking of interest among sins worthy of death.

The prohibition on interest is based on God’s covenant with Israel.

The rule is based upon the compassionate treatment of various oppressed groups: the resident alien; the widow; the orphans; and the poor. Exodus 22:25-27 states the law in explicit terms: “If you lend to one of my people among you who is needy, do not be like the money lender; charge him no interest. If you take your neighbor’s cloak as a pledge, return it to him by sunset, because his cloak is the only covering he has for his body. What else will he sleep on? When he cries out to me, I will hear, for I am companionate.” Leviticus 25:35-37 provides that “If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so that he can continue to live among you. Do not take interest of any kind from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at profit.” Finally, Deuteronomy 23:19-20 provides: “Do not charge your brother interest, whether on money or food or anything else that may earn interest.”

Jesus clearly had these Biblical principles in mind when he admonished the “money changers” and removed them from God’s house, the sacred Temple. In John 2:14 Jesus “poured out the changers of money and overthrew the tables”. Jesus was always true to the principles underlying usury (charging interest) and debt forgiveness and the importance of placing love and compassion above greed and wealth. In Luke 6:34-35 Jesus said: “And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love your enemies and, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish.” The followers of Jesus were to be concerned with the welfare of others, even when met with hatred and abuse.

The consistent teaching of both the Old and New Testaments is that compassion, mercy and justice are to override purely economic concerns, such as loans.

Religious people are to be gracious to all, even debtors. Jesus said that God does cause the rain to fall on the just and the unjust and in Mark 10:25 he said that “[i]t is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter in to the kingdom of God”. And in Luke 16:9 he said: “I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings”, and to “forgive and ye shall be forgiven” Luke 6:37.

The compassion of the scriptures, including the setting aside of legitimate rights of lenders, was typical of economic relationships in the economy of early Judeo-Christian societies. The central theme is one of stability - a stable society with a guarantee of economic security to each family. Wealth was viewed as a blessing from God (Deuteronomy 8:11-18, 28). This blessing resulted from obedience and was based on God’s compassion. The tithing for the poor, the gleaning laws, the year of the Jubilee, were all tangible ways that Israelites could show compassion for each other and honor God by following His law. Beyond income-maintenance programs, the Biblical Law provided a permanent mechanism - such as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee - to ensure that temporary misfortune barred no family from full participation in economic life.

The current bankruptcy law passed by Congress and signed into law by the President in 2005 lacks any compassion for the poor, makes no redress to the modern day money changers who shamelessly peddle plastic at rates that would draw the Holy wrath of God himself, provides no relief but only additional misery to the families saddled with thousands of dollars in medical bills, and most importantly severely undermines the economic and social stability of the average American family. These Americans are like the farmers of the Old Testament who proclaimed to King Nehemiah, “We have had to borrow money to pay the king’s tax on our fields and vineyards. Although we are of the same flesh and blood as our countrymen and though our sons are as good as theirs, yet we have to subject our sons and daughters to slavery. Some of our daughters have already been enslaved, but we are powerless, because our fields and our vineyards belong to others”. Nehemiah 5:3-5. Nehemiah responded to his people and ordered to “let the extracting of usury stop! Give back to them immediately their fields, vineyards, olive groves, and houses and also the usury you are charging them…”. Nehemiah 5:11. It is time for our elected Representatives in Washington to follow the example of the Holy Scriptures by repealing the current Bankruptcy Bill and by not taking away power from the powerless and eliminating relief for the suffering.

*This passage is similar to many other Old Testament commandments including Deuteronomy 5:17’s “Thou shall not kill” which provides no specifics nor creates no hierarchy of culpability.
This has been based on an article by O. Max Gardner, revisions by Daniel Gindes and Jerry Gaffney

I have one last thought.
Jesus said
When you pray to the Father in heaven
Pray this way...

Father forgive us our sins
by the same rules we use to forgive others
Who have sinned against us.

So Father if I am mean and find it hard to forgive
other people who have hurt me
or stole from me
or have not paid back an old debt

Please forgive me by the same rule I use to forgive them.


----------------------------------------------------------

Do you guys and any thoughts on this.

Pastor Jerry


Posted by: akabezalel

Thank you for the clarification Pastor Jerry.

I wish I had seen this teaching twelve years ago, it would have saved me a bunch of angst when we had to file.

Thank God for His Forgiveness and Compassion!


Posted by: Christian Commando

Yes Pastor, that is an incredible lesson about debt. My only problem with that is, it may stand for the "Body of Christ" to be followed, how then, do we deal with the world's lack of compassion and more for legalistic forcings of taking away homes, possessions and more when debts are never forgiven, but force paid?

I suggest one other point we need to bring about here also is being a good Steward of what God Blesses us with. If we mess up with it and let ourselves fall into a debt trap for not being as wise as we should with God's Blessings, what does God say about that? Neither God nor Christ show the best results for such. We reap what we sew.

Thus, my suggestion is, it depends upon a person's heart for this as according to God.

My thoughts anyhow.

God Bless!!


Posted by: JG

The Thought that I have is
Do we have to pay for any other sin?

Is our forgiveness or salvation held up by works until we have paid for the sin somehow?
Or did Jesus do that for us?

Are we saved by grace and love or works?

When It came to the thief
The word does not say repay in the New Testament
It says get a job and work with your hands so you help the poor.

God knew some would not do it right but the bible also says do not use Grace as an excuse to sin.

Don't go and charge up the cards and say God will forgive you.

God will but you will still have a pickle of a problem with the people you owe the money too.

As far as losing your house most states have a homestead act that lets you keep the house

These are just some thoughts.


Posted by: Christian Commando

Well, I just brought that up, about homes, for those renting and got behind. I never mean't it had anything to do with Salvation, but the unforgiveness of the unsaved concerning God's Word.

Where God was dealing ith His "First Chosen" thru out Old Test. times, now He has opened Salvation to Gentiles who will accept. But, Gentiles are a "Grafted Branch", not the "First Chosen", of which God dealt directly with as a whole group, where Gentiles its only with those who choose to follow Him.

Theres been quite a few threads for prayers for financial help lately, who were going to be evicted thru last December or early this Month being in debt. But you spoke of homestead, where these are renters.

Having lived around a major city for 5 years, I've learned, the rental costs and other are much higher than in rural areas. This makes it much tougher for anyone who has unforseen things happen, to easily fall considerably behind and not be able to catch up, for "cost of living" expenses.

Yes, the pay may be higher, but proportionately, living expenses as well. Its much cheaper to live in rural areas, but the pay is lower as well. Thus, its a "catch 22" with unforseen expenses popping up.

Besides the fact the majority of the world is unsaved, thus not following God, therefore not holding to the "Debt forgiveness" Concept of God. Secondly- most people are very concerned about money to keep themselves going in this economic situation the world is in.

Alot of people get themselves in trouble trying to own all these different "toys" to enjoy life. But there are those just trying to get along thru things too. Thus, its an individual thing for God to deal with each situation seperately, as to how to answer thier prayers for such.

To me, "Bankruptsy" is wrong in the way it is practiced today. For it is a person who "owes" the Debt who can go thru Bankruptsy, not the person, place or entity they owe it to relieving them of it.

And depending on the "Chapter" of Bankruptsy you file, it can mean Debt totally wiped clean, to paying a percentage of it, to "reorganization" plus more. And I've seen this method abused way to much in fleeting moments for personal gain.

Thats the point about "Debt Forgiveness" I was getting at. It has nothing to do with Salvation. But, Satan can still influence our hearts the wrong way, being Christians. God by the Holy Spirit may prick our hearts about it or even Chastise us over it. But, some still abuse it believing they will be forgiven in the end.

God Bless!!


Posted by: JeriRose12

Interesting that it says ALL debt was canceled, with no reasons for the debt being taken into account. . . .

All I can think of is the borrower will be servant to the lender and that we are not to strike hands in a pledge. . . .RUN from doing this!

So, I will have to think on this, as I want to say (from things I've heard all my life) that bankruptcy is a way of getting out of paying your bills and being respsonsible...and is basically stealing.

Jesus had the parable about the servent who owed the King all that money, and the King forgave him his debt when he begged and pleaded....then, he turned right around and asked the other servant to give him the little he owed him. This story also lines up with what was shared here.

I just think that there are areas of self control and wise stewardship that we need to learn....and by declaring bankruptcy, do we learn them?

But when my Dad was in a lawsuit where they threatened to take his home, he was considering bankruptcy. So, in that case I can see that keeping the family in a home was the main concern and more important.

It seems so hard to grasp this teaching. Everything in me wants to say we have to pay what we owe.

Someone who I worked for never paid me all they owed me, so that would fall under something I simply need to forgive and not be expecting to see that meony at any time, as they were the poor and needy in that situation.

~JeriRose~


Posted by: Christian Commando

Well, thats basically where I'm at too, because Old Test relieving of Debt every 7 years was procurred thru the Lender not the borrower.

Where Bankruptsy is a borrower saying they cannot handle the financial situation and needs to legally be relieved of it. Theres the difference. Thats where I see the problem, yet in your folk's case I can understand it clearly. There is good reason.

God Bless!!


Posted by: JeriRose12

The modern equivelent would be if I helped a brother in the church, who was in a desperate financical spot, not of his own making. In fact, in that case I would just give the money. I wouldn't expect him to pay me back. Well, unless, he borrowed a huge amount saying he would make payment back. Or should I give even the huge amount out right? How about the case where my niece lent this person about $1200 for airfare, so they could to their family reunion? Should she expect to never see it again and just let it go? I am sure the person said they would pay. So are they not responsible to their word of mouth promise? Are we not teaching them irresponsibility by letting them get away with such actions?

~JeriRose~


Posted by: sonrise

JG's writing about bankruptcy was right on. We seem to be picking and choosing who can and who cannot file bankruptcy and it being all right. We do not judge the heart!!!! Outward appearances can be deceiving. JG brought up a good point: are some sins just wiped out or are financial situations under a different catagory?

Do we beat over the head someone who has angonized over filing bankruptcy instead of bringing grace and compassion to the table? To be quite honest I sure wouldn't want some of those who responded to know whether I had been a good steward financially or not. The humiliation, feelings of failure for not being a good husband/wife, parent, or whatever are very real to many who must go through bankruptcy.

When we lend money, we are not to expect it to be paid back. If there is a binding contract that is one thing. I have loaned money and when it was not forth coming I blessed them and released them from any debt.

Yes, there are many parts of the country where it is less costly to live and the living wage is also comparable. Living rurally is not less expensive as it once was, inflation is still the same.

God built some wonderful pressure releasers ( I call them) into His ecomony, such as JG pointed out; the year of jubilee and the seventh year of debt relief. God did not limit it to those who were good stewards, who kept their money wisely; it was across the board no questions asked. Should we not be the same way? If one knows someone has a problem with finances, the ones who are wise should be volunteering to teach them.

I had some good friends that got into serious trouble financially because of teaching coming from church. They were told to start tithing whether they could afford it or not. So they tithed and lived off credit cards as they had no money after paying bills and tithes. Then bills were jockedyed around to pay the mounting credit card debt. When they finally came to me I exploded. Tithing has to come from the heart first and foremost. We sat down and and made a budget. As their debt ratio dwindled their tithing went up, until they were able to give what they wanted. God did not withhold His blessing because it was not 10%. Unfortunately we make religion from God's word and put people into bondage. Do you want to place people into bondage because this is how you see it? Just my thoughts---blessings!


Posted by: JeriRose12

I don't particularly "see" it anyway at all. I don't know much about it. I didn't quite grasp the part in the Bible about letting all debt go in the seventh year. I know I have read that. I just never thought through the ramifications of it or what it might mean today. Not that a secular group is going to forgive debts easily. I was not meaning to condemn anyone who has filed bankruptcy. I know some who have, and I don't hold it against them. I honestly just don't understand much about it. My Dad was given that option, so they wouldn't take his house, if the guy seriously sued for his house and property. He didn't, thank the Lord!

I've had it drummed into me all my life: Don't use credit cards. I don't, because I never wanted the problems, and now I can't even get a company to issue me a card. I don't say I do it out of obedience to God; I do it because I thought it would be wise. And now no-one will give me credit.

The tithing issue was Old Testement, as far as an exact 10%. In the NT they set aside an amount (did not have to be 10%) that they determined in their heart to give. But God needs to be getting the first portion every month, because this is Bible.

I did not say any of this to disagree or argue. Jerry wanted to know our thoughts. And those were mine. It hit me as something adverse to my thinking is all.

I was raised strict. You were a good steward with your money. You tithed 10%. If you missed church for any other reason than being dead (I kid you not -- if sick come to church and they would pray for you or call the elders to your home to pray, so you would be well and could go to church), it was practically a ticket to hell. Well, basically they told my sister she would miss the rapture because she missed church.

Anyway, I was just as "taught" as your friends, but I don't feel it put me under bondage. My understanding was this was the Biblical standard. The 10% tithe is just as strongly taught in the OT as the forgiving of debt every seven years.

I seem to have read about a tithe to the poor....so maybe tithing to the church is not all that the tithe consists of. I want to study that aspect more. We have often questioned as to whether it's OK to give your tithe to the poor? I had no extra money recently, so I gave my usual amount to someone in need, and I received a huge blessing afterwards.

~JeriRose~


Posted by: Christian Commando

sonrise-

You made some very good points, butas I refered to, try explaining following God for the jubilee release of debt over people to the unsaved. They would do some unsavory things to you for suggesting that, trust me. Some maybe would go along, but the majority of unsaved would not.

The point of my referencing the Old Test and God's debt command to the Jews, was just that. It was mean't only for the Jews, not for pagans- (unbelievers). Same goes for today.

Thats why I said, per individual situation, is what needs to be considered for 1 point and 2nd- remember, Bankruptsy is the borrower, not Lender, opposite God's Word, removing the Debt.

I would suggest "by nature of Bankruptsy" and how its administered and by who, it would only be allowable as a severe measure to protect a family and keep them safe. But, it has nothing to do with Biblical guidelines, knowing Bankruptsy is instituted by the borrower not Lender.

And to my knowledge, there are no Scriptures directly related to a borrower removing a debt owed a Lender. A Lender removing a debt yes, as with that "King" reference made as well. The King removed the debt after the servant pleaded with him. But the Servant never told the King his debt owed him was canceled.

Forgive me, but still not convinced, as God guided Leaders to cancel debts, speaks of Leaders canceling them, and more, but nothing clearly about a borrower canceling the debt they owe themselves.

Secondly- This will only pertain to the "Body of Christ" and not the unsaved world, as they'd bring drastic measures against us if tried to institute the 7 year debt relief system of God on them.

The Servant who saught payment back from another after the King released him, still shows the Servant was a Lender, not the borrower trying to release his own debt to the other Servant.

I don't know, I still think it has to be an individual case type thing. Bankruptsy is totally opposite the examples God gives in His Word about Debt release. It still has to do with where the heart of that person, family etc is for reasoning of this.

Kinda hard to use examples of Lenders releasing Borrowers from Debt, for Borrowers releasing themselves from a Lender's Debt. Just don't quite fit.

Oh, I should add one rememberance God brought back to me as well. "Eminant Domain". "Condemning of land legally".

I should point out, I know of more than half a dozen families that lost thier homes, either to businessses or the County, over debt owed, to confiscating land for developement.

In all cases, "eminant domain" or "condemning" of land happened, forcing those families out, without a penny from it. Some were younger families while others retired couples.

I cannot lie tho, each of those families had thier chance, but failed to go along with any of the offers made them for plenty of time before it. happened.

Thus, you decide.

God bless!!


Posted by: sonrise

It is interesting how we were taught has shaped our thinking. The bondage I was referring to is fear. If your sister was told she may miss the rapture, then she became motivated by fear in obeying so she didn't miss the rapture. that is bondage.

My husband and I do not have credit cards. We were once told when we decided to do away with credit cards but one for emergencies, we were told then we would always have an emergency. So we got rid of all and never have had an emergency. It is a lifestyle that we have learned to embrace. The reason you cannot get a credit card is because you haven't carried debt. Credit cards are given to people who have debt. It is the system of the world. When my brother tried to buy a truck on credit, they laughed at him because he had no debt on record. So he showed them the truck he was trading in and let them know he paid cash for it new, showed them his bank account, they were glad to deal with him. Our world system is askew of God's economic plan for us. My brother just wanted to establish credit history to buy a home.

If you want a credit card, deal with your bank or buy one. It is a prepaid, but as you use it you will establish a history. My friend had to put up $500 into an account which she could not touch until she had established her credit history with her bank.

We are going to a credit card to be used as a debit card to protect our checking accout from fraud. Right now we are setting up an acccounting system to handle it without messing up. Because we are now traveling more and using the internet to carry on business we need to protect our finances and that is the only reason for a credit card.

It is quite interesting that we have let the world rule of our finances and financial planning and what our credit rating is, and never delved into God's economic system. We need to be astute learners of God's way of finances.

Faith, trust, and an enquiring mind of God's ways will settle our financial dealings and prosper us. After all His word says "He has given us the ability to get wealth" blessings!!!


Posted by: MarkSentMe

We are responsible to be good stewards with what God gives us


Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful.
- I Corinthians 4:2

God is our only provider.


And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus
- Philippians 4:19
(see also Matthew 6:25-34)



When we live a lifestyle of indebtedness, we are saying to the world, "God cannot take care of my needs * I must supplement my income with other people´s money."

Indebtedness is also an indication of not trusting in God´s provision.
(Matthew 6:30-32)

The borrower is slave to the lender.

The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.
- Proverbs 22:7

So, when you borrow money, you place yourself in servitude to the one you borrow from!
To follow God´s ways, lend to many & borrow from none


You shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow.
- Deuteronomy 28:12

When the United States of America stopped following God´s ways, it went from the biggest lender nation to the biggest borrower nation!

When you borrow money, you are promising future income that does not belong to you!


Do not boast about tomorrow, for you do not know what a day may bring forth.
- Proverbs 27:1

God instructed His people to give to their own, without interest, or usury.


..to your brother you shall not charge interest, that the LORD your God may bless you in all to which you set your hand in the land which you are entering to possess.
- Deuteronomy 23:20
************************************************** **

Using credit cards, "90 days same as cash", pay-day loans and other forms of OPM (Other People's Money) is like playing with snakes. It is estimated that when purchases are made with plastic, the consumer purchases an average of 18-20% more than they would have if they were using cash.


Personally, I have mixed feelings about bankruptcy in the subject of medical bills. We as a nation offer all sorts of free health care and surgeries to foreigners, yet we do not give the same options to our own citizens. Working families who do not qualify for Medicaid or other forms of assistance and who work jobs that do not offer medical insurance are really in a dangerous position. One hospitalization and they can be devastated financially.

As far as credit cards being maxxed out trying to live beyond one's means, no I do not believe in filing bankruptcy for that. That's a hole that when people walk away from, others have to shoulder the burden of filling in.
It is high time we start training our children to "Just Say No". Debt is as much of a deadly drug as anything being sold on the streets. People can become addicted to spending and splurging just as they can become addicted to crack, alcohol or heroine. The cycle of Charge, Pay the Minimum, Be Broke, Charge to Make it To Pay Day, Pay the Bill, Be Broke, Charge til Pay Day, Pay The Minimum, Be Broke- needs to stop. Seven out of ten families live paycheck to paycheck. Yes, even in YOUR neighborhood!
This isn't a statistic limited to low-income families living in subsidized housing. This is across the boards! Families living in $400K houses, driving SUVs and taking Tae Kwon Do- paycheck to paycheck. Military families in government quarters driving minivans with a Harley in the garage- paycheck to paycheck. People in modest houses, 3 or 4 year old car in the driveway- paycheck to paycheck. The number of homes in foreclosure is astronomical. There is one next door to me. Two more within 3 blocks.
The "interest only mortgage" enabled people who could not afford $900 a month rent to BUY a $700K house (true story) I'll let you know what happens in about 2 years when that balloon payment bursts!
We need to STOP worshipping at the altar of the FICO Score. Some people see that score as a status symbol.

..you are not your own; you were bought with a price...
- I Corinthians 6:19,20

I saw a sticker on a HUMMER; it said "Don't let the car fool you, my treasure is in Heaven". Yeah, right. The sticker should have said "We're driving our tithe".

When we give our tithes and offerings, we acknowledge our trust and faith in God as our provider and Lord.
(See Proverbs 3:9; Romans 11:16)

God loves and blesses generous givers.
(Proverbs 11:25; 22:9; II Corinthians 9:7)


Posted by: PrayerMan

God Bless You, Pastor Jerry.


Posted by: Christian Commando

sonrise-

I beg to differ with your definition of fear.

God declares we are to have a healthy "fear" of the Lord, do not fear those who can only destroy the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Hell fire.

Now, according to your defininition of fear, we are not living freely of bondages living for and following God then, but living in bondage by our "healthy fear" of God.

There is a difference my friend, between being effected by fear to be controlled by it, to a level of fear that keeps us thinking and operating in a way we are more aware of things we need to watch for.

As a war vet, I have learned, if a soldier has no fear, he will die quickly. This is no different than one struck with too much fear. Having none, to having too much, puts us in a position to be taken easily, for we either are not watching close enough, or we freeze and do nothing when trouble starts.

A healthy level of fear, keeps you sharp, keeps you alert, paying attention, watching for things, following what your taught right and carrying out things that will protect you and others with you. It does not bind you, but allows you to do that which is best for all circumstances with the training to understand what that is.

If any fear binds us, then we are wrong in believing in and following God, for the healthy fear of God we are to have is actually binding us, not offering freedom as God delares, according to your definition.

Maybe you should speak to the credit card places who offered them to me,- MasterCard, Visa, etc., as they refused me for not having a "revolving acct" history, which according to thier definition was "credit card acct. history". I asked about my past bank credit history and was told that does not count for getting a credit card.

To deal with your bank is getting a "debit card", of which some companies will not accept- (even if have the Visa, Amer. Express or other major signia on it).

Try again Sis.

God Bless!!


Posted by: eagle4him

Getting back to the real issue of whether bankruptcy is a sin or grace: The Old Testament definition of grace is unmerited favor, and sin is missing the mark, or disobedience. The real answer for this question is that it depends on what the motivation behind the bankruptcy is. In other words, and only God knows the answer, what is the heart motive of the person filing! Blessings!


Posted by: diamondcreates

What about a family whom has fallen on temporary bad times, and there is only one income provider in the house hold and the bills are steady mounting and they have to file bankruptcy? I think that by filing bankruptcy it shall give them the chance to get things back into order. I rather see a family file for bankruptcy than be forced out of their home with their children in tow. The enconomy has gotten worst over the years and there are many middle class families that are not considered middle class not more -- but poverty level. and looked upon as such. If it comes to these situations is it wrong and sinful to file for bankruptcy for help or be forced out in the cold with your children?


Posted by: Christian Commando

diamondcreates-

That was the point made early on, because of the point Eagle4him made directly clear.

God Bless!


Posted by: GODS Grace

I bring up what Christian Commando calls the "greatest commandment"...shorten version...love God, love neighbor ...law of love...because not one seem to be considering that the money owed it still a loss for someone.

Currently, we carry a home morgage for a couple going though a divorce, thus we haven't recieved payments from them for some time. We use thier payments as income to pay our taxes coming due very some.

I just wanted to share the other side of the coin.

I understand the negative scripture posted on "interest" being "bad".

There is also the parable of being wise and "invest" with "interest" instead of hiding it.

Hope this makes since...My point is that we all need hearts of forgiveness and God's Grace/provision for ourselves and other...Right?

Jerry,
My friend tells me that in Texas creditors are very understanding of medical debt since so many people don't have medical care coverage. I do pray all in well with the medical bills you incurred last year. Praise God! God still does miracles! We will be praying for God's continued provision for your family. That's what the family of God is for. {{HUGS}}

Love, Grace


Posted by: GODS Grace

Since you asked... this is my thought...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JG
The Thought that I have is
Do we have to pay for any other sin?

Prisons are filled with people who have recieved God complete forgiveness for sin. Someday, they stand before God completely pure, yet while on earth, they are living under God's earth principles...Gal. 6:7-8 The Principle or Law of Sowing and Reaping.

Is our forgiveness or salvation held up by works until we have paid for the sin somehow?

God has set up many principle other than forgiveness or salvation,like gravity,that effect our lives. We need to know these principle because they effect our lives.

Or did Jesus do that for us?

Phil.2:12-13 Tells us AFTER we except God Forgiveness and salvation, we are responsible to continue growing..."Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purposes.

This is called the Law or Principle of Responsibility. This principle includes not being self-centered but loving others. John 15-12.

Are we saved by grace and love or works?

Grace and faith work together. True faith requires obedience. We've all heard of the Twelve Step Movement that is built on this principle called the Law of Power.

Rom.7:15,19, 23 summerized; What I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do...waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members"

1. You have power to agree with the truth or confess your problem. 1John 1:8

2. You have power to submit your inability to God. 1John 1:9; James 4:7-10, Matt. 5:3,6

If you do your part- confess, believe, ask for help- God will do what you are unable to do- bring change.

When It came to the thief
The word does not say repay in the New Testament
It says get a job and work with your hands so you help the poor.

The Law of Power also includes seeking out those we have injuried and making amends...which could possibly include declairing bankruptcy.
Matt. 5:23-24 ...leave your gift there at the alter. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

God knew some would not do it right but the bible also says do not use Grace as an excuse to sin.

Don't go and charge up the cards and say God will forgive you.

God will but you will still have a pickle of a problem with the people you owe the money too.

The Law or principle of Respect tells us, "so in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you" Matt 7:12
When ever we judge others, we will be judged. Matt. 7:1-2
"Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom" 2 Cor. 3:17
If we judge at all,it should be by the "perfect law that gives freedom" James 1:25

As far as losing your house most states have a homestead act that lets you keep the house

These are just some thoughts.
Many people live here on earth, even redeemed christian, not haven been taught God principles. They end up hurt, hungary, or even in jail, because they don't know these principles that could help them. By learning these principles, you can experiance life differantly.

If this subject interest you, I would recommend," Boundaries...by DR. HENRY CLOUD, AND DR. JOHN TOWNSEND" The book has been a blessing in my life. Grace to you!