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Discussion room for non-believers like Bob the Fat

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Posted by: Dreamweaver

Bob,
This site is for you okay. Now the healing and prayer sites can stay with what they are meant for....believers. Okay, this is yours start posting....


Posted by: Dreamweaver

Quoted from previous discussion:

"Bob,

I am sorry but you must not know too much about science. Studies have proven that prayer does help patients and most Doctors encourage it. Is your life so boring and so miserable that all you can do to occupy yourself is try to hurt people. Talk about science I believe you need to read up a little bit about mental health.

I challenge you...start reading the bible...start praying...study about religion...write a thesis about it. If you know such much about science you must be intelligent, right????? Do these things and see what happens...in the meantime I will keep praying for you for you are soooooo lost."

Dreamweaver



Thanks, but I have read the bible several times to understand that it is a good entertaining book it talks about killing people and discriminating other religions, killing gays, slaughtering of thousands of innocent animals, and all sorts of great things ! It is not a book to miss out on i assure you that I do like reading the bible...


Bob,
I agree that there are many things in the bible that don't make sense. I have a problem with those things also. I am not as tied to the bible as a lot of other Christians. My main reason is that the bible has gone through many interpretations but it is a marvelous source for reference. I rely more on my personal relationship with God to guide me. It is true that Christianity has had some black moments in history but Christians are humans and humanity is anything but perfect. I even know a few Christians that I think are some of the most disgusting people around. Even though I know these things it doesn't deter my relationship with God. It just makes me want to be a better Christian than them.


Posted by: bob_the_fat

Yes you certainly are a human. You try to make others look bad at any chance possible. But anyway, why are you not tolerant of other beliefs. For some reason I am sensing an aura of "go the hell away" coming from you and your posts.

Responding to a different post..... Yes, I believe jesus existED. Because there is evidence of his existence. But I do not believe he still does exist. That is all for this one if you are reading it person.

To the top again.... I am pretty tolerant of other beliefs, but I have found myself less and less tolerant every time some one says to me "You shall burn enternally in hell for you cannot be saved" or perhaps "all bad things come from antheists". I know something such as Hinduism or Buddhism are totally bizarr for you (regarless of the fact they are more practicle then Christianity for example) Buddhism impraticular teaches tolerance, which apparently, most people lack.


Posted by: Dreamweaver

Bob,
I was not trying to make you look bad. If that is what you felt then I apologize sincerely. I am extremely tolerant of other religions and other denominations. The bible says Judge not least you be judged and I have always taken that to heart. The reason the posts started was that you were laughing at someone's pain and posting your unbeliefs on a site that was prayer for someone's healing, you made yourself look bad!


Posted by: bob_the_fat

I wasn't laughing at someone's pain i was laughing at them praying.


Posted by: bob_the_fat

I have another quick question that will most likely have abother quick answer that lacks thought of what it says. You, Dreamweaver, said that it would all make sense if i read the bible. Then you turn around and say many things do not make sense. What I am asking is, what parts are supposed to make sense?


Posted by: Dreamweaver

Go back and read my posts, I never said it would all make sense if you read the bible. I challenged you to read it and to pray and study hoping that you would somehow come to a new understanding. I don't understand alot of things in the bible but that does not me that others will have better explanations of it. Unfortunately, I am not a bible scholar but there are others who are that is why I wanted you to bring your questions here instead of e-mailing you personally. I don't know all of the answers but that does not mean that others won't have better answers than I do.


Posted by: talena

So, Bob ??

Why are you on a christian prayer board if you do not believe in prayer? Do you think you can convince those of us who have experienced the power of God that He does not exist nor answer prayers? I doubt that is your intentions anyway. SO, why are you REALLY here? You prayed and asked God for something, and He did not honor your request? That happens, and there are many reasons that things like that happen. If that does not apply to you, then why are you here? I am sure you have many others things that you would rather be doing.

I am going to pray that your christian music career is unsuccessful until you learn to accept God for who and what He really is. I know He will answer that prayer. Then you can always come back and say I am wrong IF you ever have anything go "gold". You are making a mockery of God and He will not allow you to dilute other's faith using His name through your music. I would suggest that today be your day to find another genre. Better yet...why not let today be your day to find Jesus and allow Him to lead you to success?

I am ready to prove to you that God does answer prayers. You are about to experience it from the other side. I pray that God break you and bring you down to your lowest point so that you will have no other choice but to call out to Him. When you get there, He will be there ready to bring you through.


Posted by: jedijeb

Lord Jesus, I ask that You send the Holy Spirit to Bob that You may be revealed to him. Open his eyes to who You are, and open his heart to Yours. Father show him truth. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.


Posted by: bob_the_fat

This is for Talena or whoever not jedijeb. I like how you pray for bad things to happen even though the bible says love thy neighbor even if thy neighbor does not love the (don't know actual words to the quote but it goes somewher along the lines of that). I am here because I can be here. I have a freedom of speach like yourself and I am willing to excercise that. There aren't to many places like this where I can. Plus how boring would a world become if it were all "Praise Jesus". I told my friend this, who is probably more educated about the bible than most would want to be, and he said it would become rather boring.


Posted by: Ragamuffin

This post is directed towards anyone who reads this board and wants to see God move in Bob's life - before we (I include myself) get righteously angry (there is such a thing, Bob, look it up - Jesus was angry at those in the temple who were having a flea market and THAT is what you are doing here, making a mockery of something believers hold dear). Stop and pray and that God move in such a profound way in this man's life that he finds himself on his knees crying out to God, begging Him to come into his life and save him. We pray for God's will to be done, because if we try and quote Scripture and try to make a believer out of someone who has his eyes clearly blinded, all we are doing is throwing pearls in front of swine. Nothing Bob says can ever deter me from knowing that My God is Real and Awesome.
I write these words not to be sanctimonious, but to say that I am sanctified through Jesus Christ (thank God!!!).
Dreamweaver - Bob is trying to get you into a war of words and twist those words around - don't let it happen, I am praying for you to be strong and wise and discerning in all you say. He is watching you (Bob) and wants to mess you up - go slow - go with God. That is my prayer for you Dreamweaver. I know you want to see him saved, your best weapon is to put him in God's hands.
Bob, question for you - why do you so desperately want to believe there is no God? Your friend the knowledgable bible guy believes that if we all believed in God this world would be boring? How sad. Do you realize what you have done by coming onto this board and posting what you have? You have got the #1 prayer board praying for you to see you saved - how absolutely AWESOME is that???? The very thing it appears you do not want - it's coming at you. Romans 8:28 - And we know that in all things God works for good for those who love Him, who hve been called according to his purpose.
Also - Matthew 7:14, as spoken by Jesus of Nazareth NARROW THE ROAD THAT LEADS TO LIFE, AND ONLY FEW FIND IT.
blessings to you Bob


Posted by: talena

Actually Bob, since you are not a brother in Christ I should not even be speaking to you in general conversation. 2 John verse 10

BUT...I have no sympathy for anyone like yourself who tries to use the name of God for your own glory. That is an abomination, and I will not tolerate it. I do love you in Christ, but I do not love your unbelief...so I am praying that God does what it takes to open your eyes.

I am not praying harm on you. I am praying that God humble you. There is a big difference. I would love for God to bless you, but since you are so blunt about HOW HE CAN NOT do that..then it won't happen that way for you. If I thought for just a moment that God's blessings would help you to open your eyes I would pray in that direction. But, you are cynical. If God were to bless you, you are arrogant enough to think that you did it yourself. SO...I pray that God humble you in ANYWAY that He can. And I will not hesitate to pray for a liar to be revealed. If you are in a christian band professing God, and deliberately believing the opposite then I am going to pray that whatever you try to do in God's name will fail. People that do things like that are false prophets and deserve nothing less than failure and the wrath of God. You see the difference between you and other sinners is that you are trying to exploit something Holy. God will not allow you to do that, and I have every right to pray against it. Christians are the salt of the earth...salt was a preservative in Jesus' time. We are here to preserve the earth, we are not just a "flavor of the month". If you are out there trying to give God and christians a bad name...you can bet I am going to stand up and fight. You are on the opposing team, I love you, but I am going to pray that you lose. I am not a fly by night, "hands-off" kind of christian, and you WILL NOT to give my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ a bad name.


Posted by: talena

Aside from all that, why are you so angry at God? What prayer did He not answer of yours?

If you have enough talent to be in a band, why not do it for the glory of the Lord? You dont even know how much God could use you.

And, I am sorry if I seem blunt...but I dont do the "middle of the road" kind of christianity. You are either real or you're not. I would be more sympathetic to you if you were not familiar with God. You are not ignorant.


Posted by: Dreamweaver

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_the_fat
This is for Talena or whoever not jedijeb. I like how you pray for bad things to happen even though the bible says love thy neighbor even if thy neighbor does not love the (don't know actual words to the quote but it goes somewher along the lines of that). I am here because I can be here. I have a freedom of speach like yourself and I am willing to excercise that. There aren't to many places like this where I can. Plus how boring would a world become if it were all "Praise Jesus". I told my friend this, who is probably more educated about the bible than most would want to be, and he said it would become rather boring.


Bob,
Actually you may have freedom of speech but you are able to post to this site at the grace of our host, Jerry Gaffney. You can be illiminated from the site with a click of a button if he chooses. I don't think any of us mind you doubting or your questioning of us because most of us were doubters at one time. I think what is resented is that you not only claim to be in a Christian band and are out there representing Christ's ministry but that you came to this site to harrass us. You posted mean things on sights meant for prayer for some very serious issues, cancer and blindness. You started this and when you did, did you think we would quietly and meekly let you do this?

Speaking of boring, how bored are you that you have nothing better to do with your time than pick a prayer site to harrass and laugh at? Boredom is not something that any Christian I know suffers from, our lives are complete in Christ. In the long run we are saved and you are lost and I know that you must feel this. I very sincerely pray that you will have the experiences of knowing the Lord in the same way that we do. You came to the number one prayer chain and the number one prayer warriors are going to be praying for your salvation like it or not.

Heavenly Father,
We come to you today asking that you show Bob your power and your glory. We know that Bob and his talent can be a vessel for your glory and that he can be a great blessing to you. Lord, open his eyes and show him how powerful he can be with you as a partner. We ask these things in JESUS name. amen


Posted by: JG

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_the_fat
This is for Talena or whoever not jedijeb. I like how you pray for bad things to happen even though the bible says love thy neighbor even if thy neighbor does not love the (don't know actual words to the quote but it goes somewher along the lines of that). I am here because I can be here. I have a freedom of speach like yourself and I am willing to excercise that. There aren't to many places like this where I can. Plus how boring would a world become if it were all "Praise Jesus". I told my friend this, who is probably more educated about the bible than most would want to be, and he said it would become rather boring.



Bob this is Jerry Gaffney the owner of the Prayer Board.
Yes you are welcome to the board.
I do pray that thousands like you would come.
It will make most Christians think and that is good.

Please remember a few things though.
Most of the people on this board are Christians.
There are a lot of children who come also.
None of them are perfect yet.
Some will say very immature things
that will show how much work they need.
So please don't get to upset.

Not that I need to say it but please remember
No profanity or cursing is allowed.
I know you would not
but it is for the kids and the gentle in spirit.

Bob I really mean it, You are welcome in this place.
Thank You for coming
Jerry


Posted by: talena

When is the line drawn? When he has managed to ridicule someone so much that they are afraid to post a prayer or a request in dread of his responses? I am not saying that would affect me in anyway, but there are those that would be hesitant because of some of the cruel things that he says.

Is there no way that we can protect others from harrassment? If a newcomer posts a prayer and comes back to check responses..how are they going to feel to see a post from Bob that ridicules their faith, and tells them there is no hope???

What if it is someone searching for salvation and he delivers a message of hopelessness?? How do WE protect these people?


Posted by: bob_the_fat

Apparently a lot of you, except Talena, seem to be praying for me. The only thing that is wrong is... I haven't felt the slightest bit different after I started here. There is nothing that god has done against me. I mean especially sense I don't even believe in god (crazy huh). I have parents that told me to think for myself, not to be persuaded so easily by common christian beliefs, to think about it myself, and to make my own mind up about which religion I wish to choose. The christian religion has a good set of rules and all, but it seems as though "christians" brake this set of rules more than I do. They do unresonable things and ask for forgiveness, and then believe that everything is supposed to be okay because they asked for forgiveness. Aren't there things in life that are so abominable that we can't forgive. Killing of innocent people, treating others like **** because they believe differently then you... I came here looking for proof that prayers work and are a worthwhile thing to do. It seems as though all the praying that goes on something would be done, but clearly not.


Posted by: talena

You can't have answered prayers without faith. That is how God works. You can not expect Him to prove Himself to you. That would negate the whole purpose of FAITH.

If you want God to answer your prayers you have to be willing and ready to accept His answers. You have to give Him something to work with. You cant just say that you do not believe in something because it hasnt worked for you. That would be like someone being born in space and saying gravity does not exist simply because they have never felt it work in their lives. (kind of a "far out" analogy ...no pun intended, but you get the idea.) While that person denies the force of gravity, others are living with it everyday. My point is you can not disregard something just because you are not familiar with it. AND if you are not familiarizing yourself with it, why jump the gun and call those that know the truth fools?

I mean, do you really want to take those kind of chances in your life anyway? What IF we are right, and God is up there?? What are you going to say to Him come judgement day to excuse your lack of faith? You can not say because you were never told. You can not say because God has done nothing for you. That is a lie, you are alive today because of His mercy. If you spent as much time studying the Word and praying asking for God to reveal Himself as you do debating theology you would have already had your answers. So, in short, you have already wasted precious time.

Take the oppurtunity and talk to God. Just be yourself, say to Him that you want to know the truth. Say, "God I am stepping back...if you are there reveal yourself to me."

It is that simple. Seek and you will find... it may not happen in an instant, but I pray that for you it does. Just keep searching. And I am praying for you, just not in the way that you want me to. I am praying God's will be done in your life. I am praying that God humble you.


Posted by: Dreamweaver

Bob,
You're expecting an over night miracle and God works in his own time believe me it will come. Your parents were wise in letting you choose your own way. I did much the same thing with my children and I worked very hard at making sure they were not prejudice against other races or religions. They were shocked when they grew up and found out that the rest of the world wasn't quite that way. Unfortunately I wasn't always a good example to them and am trying very hard to live a life now that will be a good example. I agree with you wholeheartedly that their are people that claim to be Christians that are not worthy. We just found out that some Muslims do not abide by the word of the Karan. It is a brutal and mixed up world that we live in. I let the example of these so called Christians keep me away from a walk with God for a very long time because if they were what Christians were, I wanted no part of it. Fortunately I had the privilege of association with some of the REAL deal and eventually I decided to try really hard to be one of the real ones. I still fail at times but I know that I am happier with my walk with God than I ever was in world filled with sin. When I was living a worldly life I had more money things seemed to happen easily for me then I was diagnosed with a terminal illness, I still didn't seek God the way I should have it took me along time. One year ago I was on a transplant list but today I am perfectly healthy. My doctor said she doesn't even want to see me again for a year and she is just as over whelmed that I am well. Anyway, I didn't mean for this to get so lengthy but just know that you can find your own way don't let those Christians that sin over and over again be an example to you.

We will keep praying for you and in time you will feel what God has in store for you. Just open your heart and your mind a little bit and see what happens. I was a huge skeptic but now I know I will never turn back no matter what, I am on this path for life. You are young and I realize that sometimes it is harder for young people to get a grasp of where there lives will take them. My own son has studied every religion on earth, he has read the Karan several times and has studied Buddism as well as Native American religions all in a quest for knowledge. He believes but not fully, he is still searching but I keep praying and I know that one day he will come to a full understanding of his very own relationship with God. I trust God enough to have turned him over to him.

God Bless,

Jan


Posted by: Dreamweaver

Oh and Bob, thank you for continuing to discuss these issues with us. I really want you to know the truth and hopefully you will find it here.


Posted by: bob_the_fat

The truth... No one knows the truth, unfortunately.... Many claim to know the truth... They make a bandwagon appeal... People like it because it gives them a sense of security that someone greater than they is looking over... What about other religions?... How about a devote Muslim... Not a terrorist, but an everyday Muslim that works hard to achieve his goals in life... Is he just tossed in hell? I mean if that is what it is then ain't that a shame (pardon the ain't). What about a baby who died at birth... Is he also tossed into hell because he never had a confession? I am asking a lot of questions because it seems Talena doesn't have any answers other then.... "the truth" and "you will burn in hell". Sorry if I have offended any others with the use of the word "hell". I figured "hey it is in the bible and used in an appropriate teminology so hey let's go with"



"Argueing over the internet is like running in the special olympics... even if you win,... you're still retarded...."


Posted by: talena

God's Word is truth, and yes...it is a sad world for people who do not know it.

Hell is a place, I don't doubt that...but, worse than that it is being absent from God. I think being absent from God is far worse than any kind of torture a person could endure.

If you reject God's Word you will be absent from Him forever.

I am not talking about Muslims nor babies. I am talking to a man that knows about God enough to try to make something of himself by misrepresenting Him. That man is you. The other two are covered in different threads. You know better. That is the difference.

The Bible says "You shall know the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall make you free."

I have peace in knowing that I am not going to be seperated from God for eternity. I have peace in knowing that He loves me. He is my comforter.

God's Word is truth and that will bring peace into your life.


Posted by: manda

[QUOTE=bob_the_fat]The truth... No one knows the truth, unfortunately.... Many claim to know the truth... They make a bandwagon appeal... What about other religions?...
...
[QUOTE=bob_the_fat]


My heart goes out for the guy who committed suicide. I’m sorry to hear about that. I would pray for his family who are in grievance and left behind. May God comfort and heal their broken heart. My God grant you His peace in your heart also - continue search for Him...

I always think - and alot of people would agree, Christians to be tolerant of other religions also other religions to be tolerant of other religions including Christianity. Also we to you, you to us - one another.

Now let's define "truth" - Fidelity, Constance; Sincerity in Action, Character, and utterance; Fact, the body of real things, events, and facts, Transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality; a Judgement proposition or idea that is true or accepted as true; Fidelity to an original or a Standard..."Webster Dictionary"

Some of these 'ignorant morons' in here – pardon the language - have studied other religions. Have you, and have you done so w/ the Bible also w/ an open mind & heart? And many of those who have studied them, learn that in every religion they seek the truth & most of them also have or long for 'messiah' / savior eg., Buddha is considered a messiah, but Buddha himself denied this & he's right, for he could not conquer death.

Hinduism - believes in so many gods. First i thought if God was all powerful why need many Gods. After I compared them with christianity and Greek cultures, I now understand that we are actually called "gods" - meaning we represent God to show and spread His love. So the true meaning of gods here does not mean many Gods because if God means all powerful - there's no need of many Gods. I understand now that there exists One all powerful God with all His people 'gods' who follow His example, to work for Him in this world. Not because He's not all powerful but because He creates us in His own image to follow Him and to do His works. And Hindu's gods now make sense, because basically Hindu's gods are like symbols of this god controls fire, water, etc. meaning every one has his/her place in this world. There are teachers, students, engineers who can control all fire & water too! also lawyers, doctors, etc.

And many other religions that if you study them you can see actually their fullfilment will lead you to Christianity which if you study History - you know that there's no term "Christianity" but they called it "The Way"
And you know what this reminds me of "Tao" which means also "The Way" also Nature - Unseen yet His creations / works are seen, etc. Again an ancient religion to be fulfilled in this One Man...

Even in atheism / agnosticism, they have this - in which is called their own 'god' or 'self' or 'ego' to save them in the end. But considering such a huge vast world where we live in and space/universe outhere – One ‘small’ / miniscule being called man, can alone ‘save’ himself? Let alone for eternity, in a natural disaster he can easily get wiped out. At least for those who believe in This One Man - Christ, will be saved in the next life after he dies in the current life. But what about those who refuse to believe – can they be saved after maybe is way too late, since once we die – we will touch a totally different realms; not physical realms any longer, a dark one I bet. Un-chartered territories that No has gone there before except for – Christ Himself who conqueres it. Something to think about – before you’ll be surprised & regret it in the next life.

In their teachings I must say many religions also cover and search for peace, love, kindness, wholeness, balance etc.

So to seek common ground for tolerance we can start from there to open up line of communications. Those the above are Truth (see definition) - not the perversions or twisted meanings of it e.g., Love is perversed to mean Lust, Peace is perversed to mean Peace when there's drugs, etc. So us humans need to be smart like a snake, but as gentle as dove. For Lies have mixed w/ Truth.

So there's this fact that in every human being, the same longing to reach this Truth that seems to be engraved in our hearts in some degree or another. And most believe only when you have those, can you reach happiness. Not from money, materialism, etc.

What is this in us that longs for such things? It's our spirit - the driving force of our life – the invisible. So much in our time and space are visible but so much more are invisible. "Everything that can be seen, has been created from the invisible".

That's why in my assumption, there created many religions by us humans to set 'rules' 'laws' etc. to fulfill this longing to re-connect w/ something that can't be seen or Higher than us – the Spirit or Truth. This is what others in all religions refer to as "God". Keep in mind peace, love, etc are invisible. The results of them can be factual, eg., a true peaceful person has lesser need to fight other people.

Some of these laws to get in touch w/ the original Truth can be similar e.g., in most religions we are ordered not to kill, not to steal, etc. But something in us also rebels against such thing. What is this that rebels?

It's both our imperfect / twisted spirit & flesh - the opposite of those things above. For instance: hatred, anger, wrath, sorrow, pain, etc. Since there's the truth so there will be lies - and unfortunately lies can appear in the surface as truths - to decieve and have deceived anyone.

Why is our spirit & flesh ‘imperfect’ / twisted? Because of our transgressions / sins. This is where the devil comes in, the cause of the first sin – the first Lie, in which the devil starts to take charge over the world to make us fall even further into sin when he can. And he has done so – a lot of violence, cruelty outhere including using the name of religions, using the name of love, peace but thru drugs & alcholo for instance which will show itself in violence, depressions, etc. The only reason the Devil does this so to build huge gap between Truth / God and us. In return people will deny God or the Truth's existence. One smartest thing that the Devil does is that to make sure people think that he does not exist. What a coward - i must say.

And hey most humans seem to agree that even in desperation they will try to obtain - the Good, and to reject or refuse the Bad/evil mentioned above.

So what happened in the process?? Every one fails including you and i. fail in a sense that we cannot wholly obtained this 'good' that we want. Why? Because we’re humans of flesh and blood that have fallen from something – meaning something High ie., the original Truth. If you fall you become lower than where you were in your previous position.

So every religion somehow wants to go back "up there" to where they were before. That is to have a relationship to the Ultimate Spirit that is ‘God’ himself – who is the Holy/True Spirit. Holy means Unblemished, Pure, Righteous, Perfect, Truth. And that which is Perfect does not change. Truth will never change. In other word every religion each of their followers ultimately wants to achieve this ultimate "Perfection" within and without them.

And think about it, most of these religions say you can obtain this. But honestly - Can you really? By being good, by your own effort to be good, right, never wrong, never hurt anybody or never hurt yourself, - all the time, etc.? Can you? I can’t – nobody can.

There’s only One – the Source who says as a human being alone you & I cannot and will never achieve that ultimate "Perfection" is Jesus Christ. This is the major important difference / uniqueness of Christianity from other religions & atheism.

And I must say He is telling the truth – for no body can be Holy… It’s not even when you torture yourself, or burn yourself, or kill yourself or starve / fast yourself to death, or praying or meditating so many times a day, like many other religions do. Can you be Holy – or save your soul forever – on your own? I don’t think so. Like one person - a Jew commented regarding the recent Yomm Kippur / New Year to be new in body & spirit - cleanse one soul from sinning by fasting & a week of i think introspection. He basically stated jokingly about how fasting can really cleanse his soul from years of all the mistakes, hurts, perversion, immorality, drug addictions, etc - ie., sins that he has made all these looong years in his life. True, you can't. If you can save / cleanse your soul on your own, then you must be a liar or maybe a lunatic.

Since Jesus the only figure that says that He's the only one who can do so - and can redeem us thru Him & His Grace / meaning Gift of Salvation, He must be either a liar or a lunatic (according to C.S Lewis). But is He a liar? All His teachings and conducts are considered amazingly moral & in sound mind. And everyone even those from other religions / scholars consider Him as a Great Moral Teacher, nor is He ever considered as lunatic because His teachings are always considered as the most sane, sound-minded teachings ever. He's cruicified / killed by those who think He lies - but even here He challenges them to see what He has done in His life if they consider His teachings as a big Lie. He backs up these teachings w/ Facts....

So what can we say? There are many religions – many ways? It may look like many ways, but when you study other religions – they basically have the same way. That is to obtain paradise, nirvana, heaven, meaning to finally see God (Truth) meaning to be Holy in His sight - is by what? All mostly say is by being good, being righteous. Only followers of Jesus Christ – who dare to say, You cannot do that unless God – the Perfect One – Himself interferes and gives His Grace.

How He interferes? He went down to the world Himself because He saw us humans in the this wicked world, struggling to get to His "Standards" - (see definition of Truth above), but still lost! So to help them He went down to the pit Himself - to shed His Blood for the redemption of His fallen creations – sinful human beings. Why does He need to shed His blood? Because not only He wants to show His ultimate Love for us thru sacrifice, but it’s because life is in the blood so therefore w/out shattering any blood there will be no remission.

In this case since He’s the Highest of the Highest, no body can reach Him – but He can reach us for He can be the lowest of the low. Jesus Christ went down to the world in poverty – in all humility, and He even went down lower than that to the grave & beyond– the underworld to conquer death. And He raises not only Himself but also His own creations. Our Redemption is through Him, His Love & Grace alone – for He is the Messiah.

If you study History - you would know that originally there's no term "Christianity" - but "The Way" for God himself is the Way - no other way.

Other religions say they believe in God - but how can one say that though, even after when He reveals Himself as Human Being w/ all humility, in poverty, and show all the values on how to live Life, He even has conquered death - yet still you won't believe Him. How can you say you believe in God but after He comes down as flesh and blood and proves it (facts) - still you won't believe Him. Why can't He come as Human being - He can do anything unthinkable!

I think it's because most people's conception of God is the God who is untouchable, wealthy & rich God in physical terms. He is spiritually and physically..... But when He tests us by coming down as physically poor but hard working carpenter - we ignore Him. Why? Because in our sinful nature, we like to treat those who are physically rich or wealthy better than those who are less fortunate. Though those who are wealthy usually the ones who treat us cruel, or merciless.

Why do you think Buddha - rich and all - and all other monks usu. leave behind their richness? Because like Christ, it is the Spirit that counts. Only Christ was born poor - other religious figure have already tasted richer life. But Christ says I gotta deny myself because if not, My message can be distorted - by Evil - thru Physical Wealth..... He does not however say, you cannot be rich - never. He works himself but His goal is to reconnect us with our Father in heaven. So He asks us to realise that richness will never last - it will never make you happy forever....... He's right! But Spirit / Truth does - love, peace, etc. always be remembered and live on..... And the perversed/twisted spirit & flesh of hate, anger, etc will basically die - they can kill too.

And by the way, what kind of God was he if He's just sitting High & Mighty in His throne - like most religions believe, but would not even lift a finger to work in the world, to feel what's it like to suffer to be in needs, in poverty, then to be betrayed, spat at, lied at, rejected, persecuted, suffered, even to die thru the most humiliated capital punishment up to now. All this for being Innocent - He didn't even conduct any rebellion against His oppressors - yet His oppressors feel threatened by Him. Why?? My answer is because He shows the Truth (see definition) - which is Himself in the Flesh & Blood- and the Truth hurts.

And if possible we always want to run away from that - since all of us is already full of Lies. That's why God Himself needs to rescue us.... Our hearts, minds, body and soul including our mouth are already covered by sins/lies from Evil...

After all He has come to the world - study His life if you can, for comparison w/ other lives of religious figures - You'll see that this Man is an ultimate Peace, Love, Compassion, even beyond that. He feeds the needy, He heals, He performs miracles, He talks w/ everyone, He accepts the outcasts, poor, unfortunates and forgive us all. He gives an Example on how to live in this world - how to treat one another. But one thing He sees which saddens Him, "Now that I've come to the world & you have seen Me, but where is your Faith?"

And what about people w/ other religions and fake or labeled christians after they die? Maybe in the judgement day - He would ask that question to them.... and we'll take it from there...

Why Messiah or God?

In every human society, i don't care be it cave men/women, family - modern or uncivilised, work organization you name it - whether you like it or not there will always be a center - a leader - a head - a president despite how people use this position - or how they ever meet him/her like the President of the U.S - But the fact remains, there will always be highest authority in every human group, even in animal kingdom.

Now let's turn to our world - so many human beings, billions of human beings - over them exists this huge infinite & vast space, universe - unimaginable!.... do you think then even in a miniscule of probability, there's no one 'up there' - meaning 'higher' and physically speaking it is already much 'higher' who is the Head of us and this world we live in? or do you think there is no opponent in this higher ground? The Ultimate Good & Evil. Something to think about........... Everyone wants to consider there's UFO there but w/ a not yet formed head shape that looks like an embryo -- w/ Higher Intelligence. Maybe what they want to search is God Himself.

What about Heaven and Hell?
Have you ever lived in a developing / third world country and deal w/ the people as well as the government? If you do, and if you open your heart and mind, it scares me when I think about it for you would believe there is Heaven and Hell.



*Keep seeking Him...... My prayers that oneday He'll find you. Consult some of these books bob - the Bible, Greek Mythology and other mythologies even - they usually portrait a God who is to come, who is to die, which all fulfilled as Facts in Christianity, etc. Look at also books like "God in the Dock" "Mere Christianity"


Posted by: bob_the_fat

Unfortunately... Manda... I only read the first half (kind of lengthy I'd say) , but yes, I just wrote a twelve page essay about Buddhism. I have written several essays about many different religions... I happen to like the different religions... Because it really explains a lot about one's culture... Christian religion for example... You make mistakes.. and you can be forgiven... In Afghanistan... Muslims make a mistake... they are beaten or flogged to death... I agree that Christians believe they are tolerant (you being the most), but ... most aren't unfortunately... Most ridicule other religions and the beliefs of their religions because... frankly... they don't understand diddely squat...

Talena... How are you so sure... About god existing (god remains lower-cased till someone can prove a scientific arguement that EXCLUDES a book written a few thousand years ago by Greek Helenistic Jews)... I like scientific debates not... "you're wrong, I'm right. You burn in hell. I seek enternal salvation for damning you"... No that is not the sort of statement (or anything of the such) that is included in a debate, or else most debates would be short... If you want a flowing debate IM me on AOL my screen name is Wargasmic Terror


Posted by: bob_the_fat

I wasn't thinking about this in my previous post... but... Talena would you a) take 100 billion dollars b) go to Mexico and be a martyr (meaning put your life on the line for god) or c) sit there and make claims with out full proof... just wondering


Posted by: bob_the_fat

Another thought... What if the universe is just an Alien's science project... there is no proof for or against it... I mean just a thought...


Posted by: manda

Good for you. keep searching and keep reading, keep comparing with open mind & heart. In all humility, I challenge you to read my post, even if you decide not to or disagree with it. It won't offend me what so ever. Send me the first couple pages of your essay. You can PM me if you want. I like many cultures also, the diversity. It is in this diversity that God loves us - He accepts everyone - neither Jews nor Gentiles nor Greek - but everyone has been reconciled by Him and thru Him. Still He gives us choice, He gives us that conscience - sadly that conscience most times has been perversed & confused due to that sin/lie in us all. For Truth is mostly mixed w/ Lies. Because of this that I consider why one needs to have wisdoms. Should any Christians mistreat others, even other christians, etc. - Forgive them. But still stick w/ the teachings - esp. to that One Solitary Man, since the humans have been stained - both christians and non-christians have all transgressed towards one another. "Hearts grow cold, people mistreat one another. Everyone has turned away from God." Even if you don't believe in God - this alone is true.

So keep that open mind but particularly open heart.
Keep searching Him but most importantly keep that Love in your heart. God bless you and may oneday He'll find you : ) Peace beyond understanding.


Posted by: talena

Bob...

According to our scientific knowledges we should be a sort of biological robots, which act without any consciousness and without feeling anything. Our psychical life is originated by a supernatrual component, the psyche. The way that a human brain operates is in itself outside of the realm of scientific understanding. There are many things in life and in nature that supports the existence of God.

SO.... NOW I OFFER YOU A CHALLENGE.

Provide for me scientific proof that God does NOT exist.

And for your information: Money is nothing to me, my Father owns the cattle on a thousand hills and I am WELL taken care of. I go where God leads, if it is in His will for me to go to Mexico and be a martyr I would go. I have given you what you asked for, please do the same for me.


Posted by: manda

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_the_fat
Another thought... What if the universe is just an Alien's science project... there is no proof for or against it... I mean just a thought...




like the Matrix? -- if so, im sure the aliens are too shy or too insecure or too arrogant to show themselves? just kidding. and for something that is no proof for or against it - basically this means it is non-existent. just a thought.....


Posted by: talena

Aliens?

You want to discuss God and science, fine...

Lets leave the science-fiction out of it.


Posted by: pickone

God wants you to seek Him and He tells you in the last book of the Old Testament how to do it.

Malachi, Chapter 3, beginning in verse 8. I did this and He proved to me that He exists. I didn't want to waste my time if He wasn't real.

Try it. If you don't want to know, then don't try it. Who cares? You are in the driver's seat.

I heard one guy say one time that you can't just walk up to somebody and say, "Turn or Burn, Baby".

There is a special place prepared for bad drivers.


Posted by: talena

lol..

Spoken like a true Texan!


Posted by: Dreamweaver

Bob,
Are you having fun yet? You see we are really a pretty good group. I am not sure if this will have any bearing at all on you but I tried to think of all of the things that convinced me there was a God. First, I was given a gift the gift of prophecy as a child. I cannot convince you I'm sure with my statements but there have been many witnesses to these prophecies. I began having prophetic dreams and then they would happen. Sometimes they happened very quickly and many many times I had just told someone about the dream and it happened. One of the gifts of the holy spirit is prophecy and the bible states (and I'm sorry I can't quote the scripture to you but I'm sure someone else can) that if the prophecy comes true it is from God. There have been many other times in my life that God has spoken to me and the things he told me came to pass. These are things that totally convinced me plus he takes wonderful care of me and always answers my prayers. This does not mean that the Christian walk is easy, if it was everyone would be one. I just find that having someone that can do anything on my side makes everything easier.

Okay, I am sure that you are saying you didn't see or hear this and why should you believe, right? Well, all I know is that if you seek him diligantly you will find him. I think he has already found you and guided you here. I have a question. Have the other people in your band that are Christians not been a good example to you? If it is a Christian band surely some of the members are Christians.


God bless,

Jan


Posted by: FredW56

Hi Bob, my name is Fred. I'm one of the new kids on the block. This seems to be a rather interesting thread. I hope you don't mind if I interject my two cents.

From what I can gather, (a) you don't believe in God, (b) you don't follow or practice any religion at the moment, and (c) you came here to test the power of prayer. Please correct me if my assessment is wrong.

Forgive me, but I don't understad exactly why a non-Christian would come to a Christian forum looking for answers from someone he doesn't believe in. Maybe you can help me out with that, Bob. I'm confused which, by the way, is my normal state of existence.

You say the Christians have a good set of rules. I couldn't agree more, Bob. We do...and those rules are called "The Bible." Christians, like everyone else, are humans and, as such, are susceptible to messing up, breaking the rules...however you choose to describe it. I am a Christian and you know what, Bob? I sin every day. I don't like it, and I try very hard not to. But, the reality is, I'm human, and I sin. However...I do find a great deal of comfort in knowing that I can turn to my heavenly Father and, through his Grace, when I repent my sins are forgiven. There's more to it than just asking for forgiveness, Bob. There must be a sincere desire to NOT want to commit that sin again. That is repentance.

I think, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, you really do believe in God, Bob. Maybe you're afraid to admit it...I don't know. I don't know YOU. YOU know what it is in your heart. Maybe God is speaking to you even now.

If He is, may I suggest you listen and hear what He has to say? I will pray for you and, if you would like, I will pray with you.

Here's what I suggest...just talk to God. Talk to him like a son talks to his father. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you. If you don't believe you've received an answer from Him, you've lost nothing...you will still continue to believe that there is no God, and that you were right all along. However...suppose you DO receive an answer? Maybe it won't come in the form that you would expect...like someone on a flaming chariot. You must be truthful with yourself and willing to HEAR the answer. Would you try that? What have you got to lose?

If you're wrong, perhaps your soul.

I will pray for you, though...regardless of what you decide to do

In Him,

Fred


Posted by: Dreamweaver

Originally quoted by Bob the Fat:
This is for Talena or whoever not jedijeb. I like how you pray for bad things to happen even though the bible says love thy neighbor even if thy neighbor does not love the (don't know actual words to the quote but it goes somewher along the lines of that).

Bob,
Is it my imagination or did this scare you a little? If prayer doesn't work are you afraid of Talena's prayer that God might humble you? I mean you even quoted the bible. In other words telling her she shouldn't do that. Seriously, are you afraid of God? There is nothing to fear once your eyes are opened, and everything to gain. Tell me about your music, what instrument do you play and how long have you been playing, etc. Still praying for you.


Jan


Posted by: bob_the_fat

I just read a lot of posts so give me a sec to sort em out, if I confuse one with another, my bad... lots of people to talk to... kind of a one sided arguement...

Anyway, Talena... I have mentioned myself agnostic... I cannot commit to the belief in any deity.. Thus I know that the proving and disproving god are both impossible to do.. I would like to think god... in some cases... is just an invisible friend.. YOU make things happen to YOU.. some dicesions YOU make screw YOU over... and decisions YOU make can be made worth while for YOU... I am going to steal part of a quote from a website called New Mexicans for Science and REasoning real quick... www.nmsr***** .. check it out... "I have two gods, one good and one bad. If I pray to one god a lot and do things to make something good happens, the good god makes it happen. If i pray to the other a lot and to things to help bad things happen, the bad god makes it happen." (please don't rip me a part for not knowing the entire quote from memory) Talena I cannot accept the challenge for it cannot be accomplished. I mean seriously, you are asking me to do research and finding things that happened before the first unicellular organism was created. So I am sorry I cannot accept your challenge. But another question for you (it seems you've had a lot for me ) what if that cash flow stopped what if you weren't born into the environment that you were born in? What if you were born Muslim? Hindu? Atheist?
The only reason why we have debates such as this are because of the two word question "What if?"

BTW No, I was not scared by Talena. I have had a Christian wish death upon me because of my Agnosticism. Thanks :P

To Fred. Most of your assessments are correct. yay.... Anyway, no I don't belong to any religion because it seems as though even the religions who believe in the same thing still want to kill each other for worshiping the same guy in a different way. I have tried to talk to your god, and, wouldn't you believe it, NOTHING HAPPENED, wow incredible eh.

Also, Talena (I can't help my random responses I have A D D haha ), this would be one REALLY REALLY boring universe if god just made earth with life wouldn't you think ?

Back on the ranch.... Dreamweaver, yes, the others are Christians, they accept my Agnostic ways humbily, they appreciate the fact that one day I might change my mind (hoorah eh?) and it might have been you but... no I don't believe there is an ultimate being that controls what we do if we put enough effort in. Also, how hard do I absolutely have to try? I've seen several "If you seek him"s and "Just ask"s, but you say you have to do it diligently.
Diligently-Marked by persevering, painstaking effort (stolen from dictionary.com) How hard must I try? You'd think god would make it a little easier to gain salvation. Seriously... Anyway.. I have probably missed a few points in a few posts so i am sorry still have to find some pictures about Buddha for an oral report. Maybe I'll be back later. That is all.


Posted by: Dreamweaver

Hi Bob,

Well I am glad to know that you are surrounded in your band by people of God. That can't be bad, right? So what instrument do you play? What kind of music do you play? Is it Christian rock or what kind of sound?
I'm still praying for you and nahh you don't have to seek him with suffering. Just friendship. Tell me when I get to call you my brother, lol.

Jan


Posted by: FredW56

Bob:

Actually, most religions do not believe the same thing, nor do they all worship the same God. You seem to be hung up on people killing other people in the name of God.

That's not even the issue here. The issue here is faith. You say you have tried to talk to God and nothing happened. What did you THINK was going to happen? Faith is believing in things unseen. Because a person "talks" to God, that doesn't guarantee that He will answer right away. Or, maybe He did, and you just weren't paying attention. I believe that happens quite a bit. I know it's happened to me!

You can't give up just because you prayed once and didn't receive a response. It sounds as if you are testing God. Bob, just maybe He is testing YOU

Oh...He is not just MY God, Bob. He is YOUR God too. He's just waiting for you to put aside your doubts and fears.

Who do you think put all this together? The planets, stars, mountains...do you REALLY believe it all got here by accident? What are the odds of that? What are the odds that one man could have fulfilled the messianic prophecies? Pretty high, actually...yet one man did fulfill those prophecies...Jesus, the only begotten Son of God.

I know you say that you don't believe in any diety. Even Voltaire, an atheist, cried out to God on his deathbed...

All I ask is that you think about what I'm saying. You didn't come to this board by chance. You had a divine appointment to come here. Maybe you got here late, but God is never late. He's always right on time I bet God is speaking to your heart right now, and maybe you are afraid to acknowledge Him. If you feel Him tugging at your heart, now would be a good time to respond!

Just think about what I'm saying...

I will keep you in prayer.

God Bless you, Bob.

Fred


Posted by: manda

If a "Christian" wishes death upon you. I'm sorry to hear that. In my view maybe that word 'christian' is simply just a label. Or like most of us, at first the intention is well but once one wants to do good, the only choice s/he has is evil, so s/he falls into temptations of perhaps getting mad, seeking revenge or follow hatred - all of which are lies.

Yep, we have been given choices - true, some we make are bad choices to make us screw up, because of the limitation of our mind & thoughts - since alot of we can't see - like we can't control where we're born, etc. other choices we make are right ones. In either way they can help you if you want to learn from them. So continue learning....

About salvation, it is a gift. One don't need to work to earn it. It will be given when He finds him/her - which will lead to a new chapter in one's life... It's a personal experience only between you & Him. But for now, we gotta keep that Love in our heart : ) So how about it, send (pm) me couple of pages of your essay, I would like to read it. - if you don't mind.


Posted by: bob_the_fat

Sorry, I like the wars that occurred "back in the day" if you will, about "who's right".

But anyway... Yes there is a good chance we just came here... I don't really feel like typing out all the scientific data (i'm lazy so shoot me). But "way back in the day" earth used to be much like venus, except with carbon in the air. All of the carbon in the air certainly made some headway for the first organic compound... methane (CH4) after a while and under extreme conditions, these methanes, ehtanes, propanes, etc. anes, divided. And eventually these combined in such structural ways that they formed Mr. Archaebacteria (yes i know there weren't Mr. and Mrs. around then but o well). Anyway, it is highly likely that we could've just "popped" out of nothing. Humans are just a steaming pile of carbon.

Fred.. I thought something would happen after about a month of praying and doing "his will" , but frankly, diddely squat happened. I have tried accepting god before, and nothing happened. Yes, I had faith, I had all the "requirements" I guess,but , nothing happened. It was like a big waste of time after that. Maybe if god really wants to touch, so you say, he should try a little harder eh, he's got all the time. hahaha


BTW Dreamweaver. We are a Christian ska band. I play trombone. I write most of the horn parts. Perhaps someday when I feel comfy enough to tell you the name of the band I will... (not so much because I don't like you, but uh, really bad publicity eh?)


Posted by: talena

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_the_fat
But another question for you (it seems you've had a lot for me ) what if that cash flow stopped what if you weren't born into the environment that you were born in? What if you were born Muslim? Hindu? Atheist?
The only reason why we have debates such as this are because of the two word question "What if?"

Also, Talena (I can't help my random responses I have A D D haha ), this would be one REALLY REALLY boring universe if god just made earth with life wouldn't you think ?


I was NOT born into this environment that I know live in, I chose it. I was a wiccan before I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior. The cash flow was stopped at a point in my life, I have been homeless. I am blessed now because I do what the best to make everything I do be pleasing to the Lord. I obey His commandments, I pray, I study His Word... that is why I am blessed.

The universe will never be boring. God has given it too much beauty. He created diversity and made us each unique individuals. He did not create religion. Jesus did not come to start or emphasize religion. Jesus came that we might have a relationship with God.

I will be back later to finish this discussion...


Posted by: Dreamweaver

Bob,
Wow, how interesting I have never heard of a Christian ska band. My kids are TOTAL Ska freaks. I think a Christian ska band would reach alot of young people.

Okay, I hope you continue to try putting some faith in prayer. When it works it is amazing and I know God will bless you. I don't know why your prayers weren't answered but examine what you were asking for. In times where my prayers went unanswered I usually found out later that God knew exactly what he was doing. Sometimes what we ask for is not what God has planned for us. Keep trying! Try asking for God to reveal his plan for you.


Posted by: manda

Thnkx for sending me your papers, Bob, but i can't view it. will try again later, since my computer's rather sick lately. Anyhow, you know what, actually your view seems consistent w/ the scripture - because we humans were created out of nothing "pop-up" - 'what is visible created from what is invisible' and we're basically from dusts... But created so intricately w/ billions & billions of living cells & tissues in our body that seem to be 'programmed' to know what functions need to be done and how they relate to & communicate with each other.... and all these tissues, cells able to regenerate/'rebirth' in a miniscule but very important sense, inside of us. And they don't even need to learn any biology to do all that. It's amazing... it's like magical... Mysterious but Factual... Even the smartest humans can't create such intricate & detail operations, I don't think. There must be some kind of "Brain" behind all this... It's like Personal too since each individual is created differently & unique. Not to mention what's come out of their spirit w/ all the talents, ideas, creativities, etc. Amazing!

You're right, God has all the time in the world to find you... let your heart guide you in searching for Him. You are correct, He is like an invisible Friend and a Father, whose work can be seen in people like you and around us. It seems to me you have a great capacity to love, to have high social awareness to those who are in needs, no matter their cultural or racial backgrounds. Keep it up. That's truly a gift...

Thank you for playing with a Christian band. One more precious gift of music in you. I love music too, it's good for the soul. Do you sing? Enjoy.

My prayers are for you wherever you maybe in whatever you do. Let your heart lead you, always!


Posted by: bob_the_fat

Dreamweaver, if your kids have ever heard of Five Iron Frenzy then they have heard Christian ska (atleast that is what my friend tells me). Perhaps someday when we get money we might become famous, who knows... lest Talena's prayers reach god and god smites the entire success of the band...

Talena, I really hate to say it, but, the environment you are born into has a grand affect on you. You say that you would most out rightly become Christian even if you were born in the middle of a jungle without any influence. Till you come across another person who believes differently and you try to kill each other of course because of the rejection of each others beliefs. If I were born into a Christian family, I would probably be a Christian. If I were born into a Buddhist family, the chances of me being a Buddhist are REALLY REALLY good.

(Science of earth's history for those who aren't to lazy to read it http://www.geocities.com/earthhistory/)

Dreamweaver and manda, I play trombone. I don't write the lyrics because they wouldn't be quite Christian. I write the music I'll send a PM of my band's name if you would be so humble to not announce it.


Posted by: bob_the_fat

This is quickly becoming a popular thread


Posted by: manda

Yeah, kindly send (pm) me your band's name - it would be safe. Also if you don't mind, couple of songs that you guys have done. Maybe i've heard of them. where's the band from, which state? - if you don't mind. Thnkx again - and have fun!


Posted by: JG

[QUOTE=bob_the_fat] I really hate to say it, but, the environment you are born into has a grand affect on you. You say that you would most out rightly become Christian even if you were born in the middle of a jungle without any influence. Till you come across another person who believes differently and you try to kill each other of course because of the rejection of each others beliefs. If I were born into a Christian family, I would probably be a Christian. If I were born into a Buddhist family, the chances of me being a Buddhist are REALLY REALLY good.
QUOTE]

Dear Bob:
This is Jerry, I must jump in here. Your analogy of environment is not accurate. You see that is what Christianity is all about changing the environment. That is why we have a need for a Savior. That is why Jesus said you can't do this by yourself so I will do it for you. We have many Hindu's Buddhist, Muslims and occult people on this prayer board who never knew Jesus and now have found Him. We have hundreds of letters from them that say: "If it were not for your prayers I would not be alive today".

I myself was raised in the most non Christian environment with alcoholics and drug addicts. People who cursed God and everyone around them. Even though I am Jewish by blood I knew nothing about it until my twenties. My mother did not finish the 4th grade. I was in prison at the age of 15. None of my sisters finished high school and only my brother finished because he lived with me. I could not read beyond the second grade level till I was 23. So no my friend if I believed you I would be dead now because of my environment.

What did Jesus do for me.
He saved me from that life of death, suicide and poverty and pain and prison.
He forgave me of all my sins and mistakes because of my environment.
He changed the direction I was going.
He taught me how to read.
I have three earned degrees from Azusa Pacific University.
He changed my IQ. As a juvenile in jail I was tested many times.
My IQ was between 97 and 103, after he healed me it has been tested as high as 143.
When He said he would give you the mind of Christ He meant it.

What did Jesus do for me, He saved me, healed me and set me free from a life of sin and pain.
What did Jesus do for me, He showed me real love, then He showed me how much He loves me.
What did Jesus do for me, He gave me a wife and 3 wonderful sons.

So no my friend, your argument does not stand the test of 2,000 years of a Savior who said "Without me you can do nothing" then later He said, "you can do all things through Christ that strengthens thee".

Thank you for coming Bob we love hearing from you.

Jerry


Posted by: bob_the_fat

I am sorry, but I am not in that state of mind. For the most part, earth is like a sitcom that I want to stay alive day to day to see what happens next. Perhaps, rediculous yes, but maybe earth was created as a sitcom for aliens or something who knows... LOL~!


Posted by: JG

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_the_fat
I am sorry, but I am not in that state of mind. For the most part, earth is like a sitcom that I want to stay alive day to day to see what happens next. Perhaps, rediculous yes, but maybe earth was created as a sitcom for aliens or something who knows... LOL~!

Oh my friend that may work for you but what do I tell:
!: The widow who lost her husband to a heart attack and needs a savior. A sitcom joke will not work there. She needs a lot more.
2: What do I tell the parents kneeling down next to the bed of their dying child and have a need of a healing. A sitcom joke will not work there, or do I extend the hand of Jesus for a healing.
3: What do I tell the person who has taken a bottle of pills to end the pain. Do I tell them go ahead because the pain will never stop or there is hope in Jesus

Oh my friend when God trusts you, he then shares His cares. He opens his hospital to you for the wounded and bruised and broken. That my friend is why we have a need of a Savior.

For me it brings tears to my eyes to think that my wonderful Savior would trust me with His emergency room patience.

Thank you Bob
Jerry


Posted by: bob_the_fat

You have a point. You can give people some false hope, which may be true hope who knows. Makes em feel better that there is a place in which there child will hopefully end up in if they lived their lives according to a set of rules.
What if god has chosen a set religion though. What if Christianity isn't the "right" religion? What if Mormonism is the religion that is destined to salvation? Or what about the died out Puritist group? Perhaps, you may be right in that there is a god, but what if it is a more strict god then today's society has? I realize there is probably a verse of some sort that answers these questions, but what if that praying lets them down and their child dies? Then what do they commit suicide? Have another child to replace the other? Take pills till the Overdose? Or what?


Posted by: JG

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_the_fat
You have a point. You can give people some false hope, which may be true hope who knows. Makes em feel better that there is a place in which there child will hopefully end up in if they lived their lives according to a set of rules. ....


Oh my friend I can see your have never looked into the eyes of a parent when Jesus healed the child and the doctor said they can't find the cancer any more. That is not false hope but as Jesus said: He came to give life and give it more abundantly.

Oh my friend you have never looked into the eyes of the drunk or drug addict when all the cravings and dt's left them and they are set free. Jesus said he came to set the prisoner free.
Don't say they return we have a 10 year track record of them being set free.

Oh what a sad life it would be to live without hope.
Jesus said he is the way, the truth and the life.
Some surrender to that life some run the other way.
It is not the fault of Jesus if they run the other way.

Oh my friend I can see you have never watched the crippled hand become normal,
You have never seen the lame walk.
You have never seen the leper made hole, I have.

What a boring and sad life to only see bad not good.
What a sad life to see only hopelessness instead of the answer.

We love you Bob
Thank you for coming
Jerry


Posted by: Dreamweaver

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_the_fat
I am sorry, but I am not in that state of mind. For the most part, earth is like a sitcom that I want to stay alive day to day to see what happens next. Perhaps, rediculous yes, but maybe earth was created as a sitcom for aliens or something who knows... LOL~!


Bob,
You've been watching the Simpsons too much (I saw the alien sitcom show)!!! Okay, yeah God is an alien...at least he is not of this earth and yes I guess the earth is quite dramatic if you look at it in terms of a sitcom. I know that my life story could challenge the writers of most soap operas. I do know that "our" God is a loving God and I think he feels our pain and he does most certainly comfort us but Christianity isn't all about being comforted. Sex, drugs, rock and roll are comforting for a time but not totally satisfying in the long run. Christianity to me is about finding absolute meaning in my life. It means understanding life. It answers most of the questions I always had about life and I hope that someday you can experience it, I know that words are not what will ever convince you.

In defense of Talena, she wasn't trying to jinx you or pray for bad things to happen to you. She is not like that. If you reread what she said she was praying that something would happen to you that would bring you to your knees (in prayer). You were being pretty offensive. She wanted you to be so humbled that you would cry out to God. This is what happens to most non-believers they cannot stand the place they are in and search for a way out and cry out to God. Guess what, he is always there.

As to Mormons, Muslims and other religions being correct, I don't worry about that, I know that my God and my relationship with him are secure. I know I've got it right with him and that is all I need to know. I have two very close friends that love God as much as I do, one is Mormon the other is Jehovah's witness. I don't think that they are right and they don't think I am. We all stopped arguing religion long ago to save our friendship. I think they are both wonderful and nothing would make more delighted than seeing them both in heaven (of course the Jehovah's don't believe in heaven). When they ask me questions about why I believe the way I do I answer them but I do not condemn them for their beliefs even though I think they are wrong. Some think that I am not doing the right thing by not ministering to them more but I don't feel that way. My father's family is divided between my grandfather's Jewish roots and my grandmother's Southern Baptist. My mother is of Native American and Scottish heritage. Her grandmother would sit on the front porch and drink whiskey and chew tobacco while she read the bible. Now I think we all know that is not right but I don't know what her heart was. My parents were Assembly of God and that is the church I grew up in. I think this mixture of cultures is what makes me so tolerant of others. If you think environment has such an effect you obviously haven't known many ministers children (sorry to all of you that are but you DO know what I am talking about. lol).

Please do pm the name of your band and I will keep it personal but since your into ska my daughter may want to e-mail you. Her and her husband listen to nothing else but ska and have been all over the country to hear some of the old original ska bands.

Keep an open mind and hopefully you will experience what I know you are looking for. Sorry this got so long. Still praying for you.

God bless,

Jan


Posted by: talena

Jan is right. I would never wish harm on anyone. As a matter of fact I am considering your well being. I would rather you be humbled by God now than wait until it is too late to cry out to Him.

Back to our existence of God discussion:
Biogenesis/biosynthesis (true science not creation theories) says life can ONLY come from life, paleontology supports the truth revealed in Genesis, thermodynamics points to creation rather than organic evolution, and the science of genetics reveals some of the complexities and order of the introduction of life and its propagation.

Science does support the existence of God in many ways, but the Bible reveals the "person" of God.

I would love to go into further detail on this if you are interested.

Oh, and upon reading the link that you provided. I don't give man too much credit when it comes to "dating" the earth. I have heard of way too many instances of them being wrong. The latest that I read was that they had dated a fossil going back 150,000 years and a father later revealed that he lied about finding it. It was a fossil that his son had "created" for a school project...go figure.

I get Discovery magazine, and the Smithsonian, etc... I am not "out of the loop". I "kind of" support the big bang theory. The Bible even states that just before the moment God began creation the earth was void and with form...no doubt probably just a ball of gas. What happened? God spoke. NOW...the bigger picture here is HOW did Moses know that the earth was ever just a large ball of gas? Moses is the one that wrote it all down. He was without any scientic evidence that proved that, not to mention the tools needed to find that out. He was just simply going by what God was revealing to him. It took science thousands of years later to prove something that Moses had already had on paper. NOW...having said that. I think that I would rather trust the Word of God which has been proven to state facts before they are even revealed by scientist, then to rely on man's theories as to what happened and when.

If you have it all right there in front of you in black and white then why wait for science to reveal anything else? To say that ONLY science is right is like saying a stick has only one end. To say God is right makes both ends more prominent and covers everything. TRUE Science embrasses God.

By the way, I dont mean to offend you...but, there is no such thing as agnostic. You either believe or you dont. People who can't make up their minds call themselves agnostic. The word agnostic implies fickleness and weakness. Is it not more appropriate to just call yourself an atheist? IF you dont believe in God, then you are an atheist. It does not matter to what degree of unbelief you are still an atheist.

Which brings me to another point. Being a christian is a lifestyle change. And, yes it can happen to anyone no matter what environment they are born into. You can look at it like winning the lottery, only the odds are much better. It is a major life change that causes major life change. A person that wins the lottery can do so no matter what environment they come from, and the chances of that environment changing once they win is HIGHLY likely. And I am sure that you are going to use the argument that rich people dont play the lottery, not true. The beginning of this year a billionaire in NYC won several million in the lottery, and we all know the story of the housekeeper that won. SO...like the lottery being a christian can happen to anyone from all walks of life...and it causes positive changes for those that choose that path for their life.

That being said I am going to bed.


Posted by: manda

Hi bob. Thnkx for your band's name. Sounds pretty cool, so are the song titles. I will pray for your band, that He will bless it & provide what you guys need. And He will bless you also & calm that storm & pain in your heart & mind w/ all those questions. I've been there. And like most people in whatever religions we often ask "why does God, if there is God allow suffering?" - we don't have all the answers & this issue will take forever to discuss. But this truth we know that so long as we live in this world, there will always be sufferings.

Some people wonder why there's so much stories about violence in the Bible - it's to remind us about this that this world we live in is rotten & full of Sin, which make us fight / hurt each other easily. That's why He came down. But when Christ was in this world, He Himself had to face it, w/ sweats of blood, crying out in the face of sufferings. He too felt alone & forsaken because after He prayed & there’s No answers. He still had to die. He shows that He knows what we feel in our trials and struggles... But He also shows us that He conquers them without sinning. He stays Faithful – for that’s what Trust or Hope is all about… even when His want or will should be denied totally.

You know what in Buddhism and ancient religion, they have similar thing to this, "detachment" – as one way to obtain happiness – to expect or hope but release oneself from clinging to that expectation /will/ desire. A total surrender. And in Christ this was totally fulfilled (Ultimate Example) to the point of Him dead - for reconciling us back w/ our Father & to give us an example on never ending Faith in Him despite our prayers or wish are not granted… If it turns out bad for us, He can always turn this around to be good for those who are Faithful to Him.

"Father if this cup of suffering can not be taken away unless I drink it, then Your Will be done, not Mine..." - He died on the cross - but b4 that He said "It is finished..."

Not the sufferings of this world that is finished, but He had faced & overcome all the principalities of evil & demonic powers/dark forces that cause this world of rotten sufferings.... Hope has come alive. For Only w/ Hope, a person can go on.

"In this world you will have trials and tribulations, but be of good cheer / don't despair, for I have overcome the world" --- meaning "I know what it’s like, I’ve been there. So I will help you if you believe Me or trust Me – even when in trials, it is hard for you to Trust."

*Christianity is the One true religion. Because nobody can come to God by his/her own efforts alone, we have fallen waaayyy too short from His Perfect Standards! So He had to come down to save us – sacrificing Himself to show His Love & Forgiveness – no matter who you are or what you’ve done. And no other religion shows and does this so Passionately. Plus Jesus Christ is a Fact. He’s the Factual dying God – who Lives on. There’s proof for Him & against Him – and proof against Him means He actually exists – Because there’s nothing, whose validity is being assessed so much, if its affects are not factual or only fictitious after over 2000 years. God has become a Man.

"I will not believe so much in a religion that brings only goodness but not the Truth / Fact"


Posted by: bob_the_fat

I'm pretty happy tonight so no negative nany's from me.


Posted by: Dreamweaver

Of course you're happy, we've been praying for you!!!!!!!!!


Posted by: manda

Good for you. Be happy/positive, not only for tonight but every day. Much better that way. And yes, we have been & will continue praying for you.


Posted by: bob_the_fat

Jerry, what about the people who's child does die? Or the treatment that they have received causes the child to die? What about all the things we could have if it weren't ruled out "unethical"? I am positive if there weren't restraints placed on anyone about how if god didn't create it thus it shouldn't be used. I mean, we have finished mapping out the human-genome project. Though, for the most part, no one knows how the majority of the genes work, I am absolutely positive if there weren't religious restraints put on the hard working scientists, that most of these terrible diseases would be cured. Yes, I have seen a crippled person, born crippled, and I have seen them crippled for the rest of their lives. My mother is one who has to work day to day with crippled kids. The parents of those crippled kids treat them like they are nothing. They leave them alone at a bus stop till the bus comes, they send their child to school with temps in the 100's, not caring about what they are doing regardless it is their fault the child ended up that way because they wanted to smoke and drink when they were pregnant. Then you know what these people turn around and do? They damn me for not being a Christian regardless of how ****py they treat the things they CAN see.



__________________________________________________ ___________
JW how old do you all think i am?


Posted by: talena

Bob, what religious restraints are you talking about? I am interested in the details that you can give on this.

Also, thousands of children go to a bus stop every day and wait on buses...crippled or not. Thousands go to school with temps...crippled or not. Thousands are neglected everyday, not just by parents, but by a society that makes it next to impossible for children to be cared for properly. The economy plays a major role in the fact that these children are going off to school alone and even sick. It is more economical to give the child a dose of tylenol and pray for the best, knowing you can not miss anymore work...knowing you have to be at work on time in order to feed, clothe, and shelter that child. It is even better for the school to call work and then have to leave as opposed to calling in late or missing a complete day. People do what needs to be done in order to survive. Most people are not blessed with the finances to be a stay at home mom, or to even hire a sitter. It has nothing to do with them not loving their children.


Posted by: bob_the_fat

Talena, would you leave a crippled child who could die whenever alone on a bus stop? I know I wouldn't.

Talena ever heard of Evolution? Ever hear how it is the most well proven theory on the planet? Then why are there still people that don't want it taught in school? Then why are there still people who teach creation and not evolution even though it has been proven over and over and over (we are different then our 1800 ancestors why because of evolution)? THOSE are the religious restraints


Posted by: JG

Bob you said: what about the people who's child does die? Or the treatment that they have received causes the child to die?
Oh my friend, you missed the point. That is why Jesus came. What about all the babies that are healed or saved? What about the baby who had water on the brain, his legs on backwards, and Jesus healed him in our meetings, right in front of everyone? What about the boy whose ankles were so deformed he walked on the outside of his ankles, not his feet? Jesus healed him when Pastor Jeff and I were praying for him. What about the baby who was born dead? The best we can tell the baby was dead abut 17 minutes. Jesus raised the child from the dead. That is why we have a Savior.
Bob, there are many people who are sick and die. Is it the doctor's fault because they did not ask him? Is it the hospital's fault because they did not go? Is it the doctor's fault when they do not take the medicine? Is it God's fault because they do not ask? You have to be a child of God to ask. So, He made a way for everyone to become a child. Is it His fault they do not want to become His child?

Here is the testimony.- The baby is totaly healed.

Dear Friends It is with great rejoicing I write this letter. When I wrote to you last we were at Central Park Assembly of God Church in Aberdeen, Washington. The last week there was one I will never forget. Night after night, it was standing room only as we watched people come from all over to touch the Lord. The pastor, Robert Rester, had the youth group, (we called them the Miracle Team) pray for a baby.>
No air for 17 minutes
  

That child was in critical condition, on life support, and declared 80% brain dead. The baby was born dead at home. He had also gone over 17 minutes without breathing. They finally got the baby breathing again but almost all hope of a normal life was gone. The miracle team was ready. They had already seen so much so they anointed a cloth with oil and stormed the gates of heaven for that baby. Well, I want you to know that next morning God moved on that baby and healed him right there. What a way to start off the week! Oh, praise the Lord, for His mercy endureth forever. So, you can have a feel of what just one week is like, I want to share some of the entries in my journal from that last week. Monday morning: the Lord gave us a vision of His body to the morning prayer group. Everyone was caught away in the Holy Spirit and prayed for almost two hours. All of us cried and sang, and laughed and cried some more. Lord, I know there was a breakthrough. Satan, you will not have your way tonight. Monday evening: Pastor Robert gave the testimony about the baby being healed. Oh, praise the Lord! The whole church was moved by a wave of repentance.


The whole testimoney is on this page:
http://www.annointed.net/displayarticle118.html



Bob you said: Or the treatment that they have received causes the child to die?
Is that God's fault or man's fault.. Do not forget we have a free will to do what we want.


Bob you said: What about all the things we could have if it weren't ruled out "unethical"? I am positive if there weren't restraints placed on anyone about how if god didn't create it thus it shouldn't be used.

Bob, that is such a broad brush. God is not stopping man from anything - unless you are talking about going back to the times of Hitler, Stalin and other men who did not care about right or wrong. They performed some of the most horrible operations on mankind with no conscience. They maimed, deformed and killed without conscience. There were no volunteers. They just killed. For what? Science. Please, don't tell me you want the killing chambers back just for science.

Bob you said: I mean, we have finished mapping out the human-genome project. Though, for the most part, no one knows how the majority of the genes work, I am absolutely positive if there weren't religious restraints put on the hard working scientists, that most of these terrible diseases would be cured.
Bob, God is not stopping anyone. Why are you blaming Him?

Bob you said: Yes, I have seen a crippled person, born crippled, and I have seen them crippled for the rest of their lives. My mother is one who has to work day to day with crippled kids. The parents of those crippled kids treat them like they are nothing. They leave them alone at a bus stop till the bus comes, they send their child to school with temps in the 100's, not caring about what they are doing regardless it is their fault the child ended up that way because they wanted to smoke and drink when they were pregnant. Then you know what these people turn around and do? They damn me for not being a Christian regardless of how ****py they treat the things they CAN see.

Bob, you have made my point. This is why we are here. To help the wounded, bruised and broken. Without God there would be no help. Again, I hear your rage and anger at the Lord for something He did not do. People have hurt you, not God. When people find Jesus in a real way, things begin to change. They become more like Him, not the devil.

Bob, you are throwing stones at the wrong person. God did not cause all this pain. Man did it to himself. I can take you to many places in the world where they do not follow the Lord at all. If your advice had been followed, then these places should be heaven. Yet, wherever you go in the world without Jesus present, it is total anarchy and danger - man killing, stealing and hurting one another, just because they want to. If it were just the absence of God, how come those places are not your utopia?

Bob, I love the fact that you mother works with the hurting children. I understand what it means to have parents who did not know how to raise children. That is why we need Jesus. I think you protest too much, if God was not important, you would not be bothered. I have the feeling that many are praying for you, and that is why you are so upset.


We love you, my friend. Thank you for coming

Jerry




Posted by: talena

First of all Bob, there is a reason evolution is still called a theory and not a law and that is BECAUSE it has not been proven. Gravity is a law, because it has been proven, evolution is not a law.

During the process of evolution things are supposed to change for the better. If evolution is SO true and such a proven theory in your book then how can you explain WHY the 20th century was the bloodiest, most violent, most criminal century than EVER a time in history (recent studies released indicate this and can be confirmed)? Can you tell me why man is DECLINING now instead of evolving? YOU support that conclusion when refering to the crippled children. Man is not getting better, we are not adapting to our environment better. Things are getting worse. And I ask you again to answer my question...why has man not gotten any better since the time of first recording history?

And that crippled child has the same chance of survival as any child left alone at a bus stop.

And another thing, you have a heart and you have compassion...so, why are you not using that to glorify God? To mix it with so much hatred and bitterness can cause you to die of a stroke or heart attack before you have a chance to evolve spiritually. Which, by the way, is the ONLY way anyone can ever really evolve..and it is to something better.


Posted by: jedijeb

On the evolution subject, I once read that Darwin said that there were 10 things that had to be true for his theory to be valid, and that before his death he had proven most of them false himself. Im not sure where I read this, but it seems that if Darwin himself proves his own theory invalid, why should we put so much trust in it. Also if man as a creature evolved then why do we need cloths to help us survive our environment, do polar bears need parkas to survive the cold, do camels need cantenes to be able to live in the desert? If we evolved then we would have the heavy fur for the cold or humps for water in the desert.


Posted by: Dreamweaver

Good Morning Bob,

Okay, let's say for the sake of argument that the theory of evolution is correct. Does that theory dispute that God exists? If evolution did occur what was actually behind that occurance? If you read about creation in Genesis does it totally dispel the theory of evolution? To me evolution doesn't have anything to do with proving the existence of God. So, if that it is what you are using for an argument about the existence of God.. it just doesn't wash with me. Scientists, doctors.........do you think God plays no part in some of the miracleous discoveries? Come on, do you think these scientists just happen upon these discoveries without a little help. You give man too much credit!! Do I believe in healing.....YES absolutely.....I have seen it experienced it and know that it is real and from God. Does that mean that I don't believe in doctors or science. NO, it does not. I believe God uses Doctors and scientist in marvelous ways.

God bless,

Jan


Posted by: talena

James...

Darwin wrote that down in some of his diaries, and he had a student that worked with him that also recorded that Darwin knew that the theory of evolution was impossible.

Darwin told many shortly before he died that he himself did not even believe in evolution.


Posted by: Ragamuffin

one of my very favorite bumper stickers _____"RIGHT NOW EVEN DARWIN IS CONVINCED"


Posted by: bob_the_fat

TAlena you are pretty ignorant in the area of science. A theory is the highest achievement in science. If it is a theory that means it has been proven over and over through many tests. Also, where is this report that this is the bloodiest century ever. Sure a lot of people died, but... that is because there are more people on the planet now then before. Also, was it not Christians who cruxified those who spoke out against the church and tortured them to death?

Jerry, who created everything the world see's? He is the creater of ALL things you and everyone else say that it came from some place so don't become a hipocrit now (sp) gotta go bye.


Posted by: Dreamweaver

No Bob, you are wrong. A theory is not the highest. A theory is a theory look up the meaning. But anyway isn't that a little petty on your part. If you are going to continue to try and agitate and never willing to learn then I am no longer going to waste time trying to explain anything to you. I will continue to pray for you because I feel you really need it but even us "Christians" grow tired of useless bantering after a time. If you want to act like an adult and speak seriously about these issues then fine but I'm not going to try to discuss issues with you if you are going to continue this hostility, especially towards Talena. Anyone can see quite clearly that Talena is very intellegent so STOP attacking her.

Jan


Posted by: bob_the_fat

Okay, sorry. I was told that by the person who invented the slot for the RAM. And he has 9 degrees in many things. And he said that it is the highest achievement for a scientist to achieve. Even though many people do not know. The "definition" of theory for science is totally different then the type you'd find on dictionary.com or say. A theory is considered "the truth" because it has been proven over and over (is there an echo in here?).


Posted by: bob_the_fat

Oh I have learned something, that I haven't really seen a definate reason why I should pray.


Posted by: talena

Bob, I would have hoped that you would have enough wisdom to research your answers for yourself as opposed to refering to another person opinions. IT would help if you did this more in the areas where God is concerned as well.

Find any scientific definitions database and you can find the true scientific definition of the word "theory"
***********************
Science Definitions
The following word(s) fit your search criteria:

Theory: A collection of assumptions that include a detailed explanation that guides the development of hypotheses and interpretations of experiments in the field of science.
*************************

Do I need to get anymore specific than that?

I will let you look up the word law yourself. In layman's terms, theory=unproven (ie:theory of evolution) / law=proven (ie: law of gravity)

And in case you don't know: the definition of "hypothesis" is an "educated guess".


I dont know where you "ram" guy got his 9 degrees, but it sounds to me like he needs to request a refund.

I have to find that article on this century being the most violent. I will come back and post it. I believe it was discovery.com or historychannel.com...be back!


Posted by: jedijeb

Well the guy who invented the slot for RAM may have 9 degrees but he is wrong about the definition of theory. The highest is called a Law. A theory is an idea that is supported by several observations. Only when the observations can be proven through multiple test can the theory become a Law. A hyopthesis is below a theory, it is the idea that the theory is based upon. Gravity is a Law, Thermodynamics is a Law, Relativity is a Theory and so is Evolution because there are test that prove them and test that disprove them. It has been shown that a species will change over time that is true, just as through selective breeding we increase the size of cattle or breed hogs that are leaner. But the one thing that has never been proven is trans-species changes. Even when studying things like bacteria and insects which produce generations on the timescale of minutes or days. Even with our manipulation the best that has been done is produce a strain of the subject with slightly different charastics, never has one been produced that was a different organism. You can breed smaller and smaller dogs but they will not become a cat.

Also isn't it odd that in the fossil record there are many examples of single cell life but nowhere is there fossils of two cell or three cell life. Funny that if evolution is true there is nothing between the single cell and the complicated life of today. There are fossils of colonies of single cell life but each of those is the same type of cell, if that were the link it would be like a cell becoming skin then jumping totally to an animal. Its also funny that the very people who believe that we all began from a mucky mix of chemicals are also the first to scoff at someone talking about extra-terrestial life. If they believe that is how we developed, why dont the push for looking for signs of life on other worlds? Sometimes the hypocracy I see among scientist makes me not want to be called one myself.

Honestly the more I study how the universe works, the more I know there has to be a God that formed it. The more I know of the complexity of the Laws of Physics the more I know it all didn't happen by accident. If even one small Constant such as the power of Gravity or the attraction of a proton to a neutron were to change slightly, the universe as we know it could not exist. What are the odds that all of these factors just happened to come together in exactly the right alignment to produce a viable universe and not just a huge blob of energy or matter? It just doesnt happen by accident. Scientist who wont admit God exist are just afraid to admit to limits on their knowledge. Even Einstein said God must exist, and he knew more about the universe than any man probably ever has.

Sorry about my ranting, I will get off my soap box now. I just get fired up sometimes. I will turn it back over to everyone else now.

James


Posted by: talena

Here is the article...OH, and what do you know? I got some of the information from a scientific resource! World scientific itself... (as a matter of fact I made it a point NOT to get any of this information from christian sites).


WAR AND PEACE IN THE 20TH CENTURY AND BEYOND

edited by Geir Lundestad & Olav Njølstad (The Norwegian Nobel Institute, Norway)

At the turn of the 21st Century, the world was immediately gripped by the War on Terrorism followed by the Iraq War. In reflection, the 20th Century...was the most violent century in human history. It witnessed two horrendous world wars, as well as the conflicts during the Cold War. ...


*********************

A new official story is invented in order to justify the new reality of events. Cultures are transformed and often completely destroyed by conquering ones. The world is endlessly re-mapped and re-named, with new rules and rulers in recurrent holocausts. New "world orders" come and go in the middle of ideological frenzy. The 20th century has been the most violent in the world's history. Human kind is in constant war with itself, perfectly capable of total destruction.

Professor Chagoya Professor (MA, MFA) U of C * Berkley

**********************

This has been the bloodiest century in human history. The 20th Century dawned with great hope for progress and peace. Many of those hopes were dashed by the blood baths of World War I and World War II, with hundreds of regional conflicts, not as massive, yet no less deadly for their victims. World History of the 20th century brings the stories of tragedy and triumph of this century to your computer in a new and innovative way.

New Century Marketing..historical research

***********************
YOU GET THE POINT!


It has nothing to do with the number of people anyway, right? I mean...if we are evolving and all...we should be adapting to the world around us, instead of trying to destroy it? Civilization is declining, that is so obvious. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure it out.


And I am not as ignorant as you would like to think. Many people like to think that christians have only embraced matters of the heart, and soul, and neglected the mind. I have an IQ of 166 (per MENSA test results in Atlanta, GA 1996). Society would like to think that we christians are closed minded conservatives who only think with our hearts. NOT SO! The mind is just as important, as a matter of fact the Word says to study to show thyself approved. I could debate with the best. But, I am not here to debate theories. I am here to give witness to what I know as fact. The fact is GOD is GOD, you can spend all the time in the world milling over all the questions that you have about God. But, you will never get the answers that you want until you have done the work yourself. I can't tell you God exists and expect you to believe it. IF you want God..find Him yourself. I can help in giving some direction, but I can't force you to look for him. If you want answers go to the source. If you wanted to know about the law of non-contradiction, you would not go to a child to get the answer. To claim that you dont believe in God because He never did anything for you is like saying that you were never born because you haven't experienced death yet. To experience death you have to live, to experience God...you have to believe NO MATTER WHAT. SO...you dont get the answers you want right away. I told a couple of people on here the other day...faith is like exercise. In order to build up yourself spititually you have to have faith, even when you dont feel like you can. To build yourself up physically, you have to exercise...even if you dont feel like you can. Sometimes it takes a while for the results, but if you continue working on it...those results WILL come.

OH...and FYI: I studied liberal arts and science in college (can't be too ignorant and do that).


Posted by: bob_the_fat

One of the points I criticized was IDNet-NM's suggestion to modify the new standards to say "3. Describe the basic concepts of evolution by natural selection and how the evolutionary model is used to explain the diversity of species." In my letter to the SDE, I said "Models are often used in science; for example, a basketball can serve as a model for the round earth. However, evolution is much more than just a 'model' - it is a very detailed theoretical explanation of life's diversity (with many specific mechanisms involved), and is backed up by reams of evidence and data (facts). 'Theory' is the highest level of science - there is a theory of electromagnetism, a theory of relativity, and a theory of evolution. Theories transcend mere 'models.' "

Stolen from www.nmsr***** it is an article about Kent Hovind who is offering 250,000 dollars for anyone who can prove Evolution as a science.


Posted by: bob_the_fat

In all honesty, what started all these wars? Was it control for land? Doubtful... How about money? Nope... R E L I G I O N! WW1 AND WW2 because the Nazi's didn't like the Jew's. The war with the terrorists. MORE R E L I G I O N for the deaths of a few thousand innocent people in the world trade center. Why? Because a certain group of people disagreed with another (Al Qaeda and America). That is primarily why the 20th century was the bloodiest ever eh? (all terrorists attacks before 9/11 were also about religion)

BTW some of the degrees I noticed: Physics, Education, Mathematics, Chemistry, Computer Science.. and a few others. He only teaches for one reason. Because he wants to teach the teenagers to think for themselves. He also lost a law suit due to a really ignorant judge who was told that an object at rest doesn't have friction and believed it. That is what science is making it into the political world.


Posted by: bob_the_fat

For some reason, I get a feeling that you all don't understand how plainly I am saying this stuff. No, it isn't because I'm angry (RAR!! haha). Or because "god" didn't do something for me (NOO!!! ha ha to the second poewr). But because I'd like you all to THINK ABOUT WHAT I AM SAYING. Not the concept of I'm right you're wrong.


Posted by: bob_the_fat

Also, a post from long ago that i really haven't thought about. It was me saying that I have a freedom of speech. Then Dreamweaver said there is an administrator who with a click cancels me. The he said I am welcome.

Just a thought. Wouldn't he be showing his intolerance for other's beliefs by kicking me out? Or is there some other explanation?


Posted by: talena

The one that defines theory as "the highest level" is only the opinion of ONE MAN. You are the one that stated that we should stick with scientific definitions here, so let's do it. That award money will never be given out because evolution will never be proven. You can never prove something that is based on a lie.

As far as the religions causing war...that is not entirely accurate. MAN started these wars. Religion has only been used as an excuse by people throughout history to justify their behavior. But, like I have said to you before God has little to do with religion. Jesus did not come to earth to establish a religion, but to make it possible for us to have a relationship with God.

God, had nothing to do with the attacks on 9/11...that was the stupidity of a few "evolved" men. The same goes for WW1 and WW2. Religion was not the cause, ignorance was. Since civilization is declining, I am sure that we will experience more and more acts of ignorance. We can not blame God for that, we can only blame man. Man does have a will of his own, and with that God does not interfere. If asked God will intervene, but we can not continue to ignore Him and tell Him to stay out of our lives and expect mankind to get any better. We have turned our backs on Him...took Him out of the government, out of schools, out of our homes...and then we expect Him to stop tragedy from happening. It does not work like that. If we want God to embrace us we must embrace Him.

You can keep searching...try winning that award money, but creation will become a science before evolution ever will.


Posted by: talena

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_the_fat
For some reason, I get a feeling that you all don't understand how plainly I am saying this stuff. No, it isn't because I'm angry (RAR!! haha). Or because "god" didn't do something for me (NOO!!! ha ha to the second poewr). But because I'd like you all to THINK ABOUT WHAT I AM SAYING. Not the concept of I'm right you're wrong.


I am understanding how "plainly" you speak. I HAVE thought about what you are saying. I have studied it myself, and dedicated many hours to researching it. So...why can't you consider what I am saying??

This is plain:

God loves you, and He wants you to have an abundant life. God's will is for you to accept Him, and accept that He sent His Son to die so that you might be saved. Why would you want to take a chance in missing out on something this wonderful? I mean, you REALLY have nothing to lose by accepting God. Get a KJV Bible and do the research yourself. Tell God before you open it that you are open to anything that He wants to reveal and you are ready for Him to prove Himself to you. (Something He does not HAVE to do, but I know that HE has and still does make exceptions). It is as simple as that. Get a Bible, a concordance and start your research. Look up historical references to see how the Bible stands up to history books...you will be amazed at the accuracy. IT only takes a few hours of your time a week. And if nothing else, at least you will be educated more on the Bible, so you can "evolve" in your debating skills.


Posted by: manda

hi bob. well no-one says that if you believe in christianity that you can't think for yourself! that's a lie. alot of doctors, scientists, researchers, etc. outhere who are christians & many are jewish - who have this God given brilliant brains. And most countries in this world which are democratic and developed are basically rooted in the judeo-christian culture and belief. Because in true christianity, not so much of labeled or organized "christianity" the belief is in true Liberty & Love, & value hard work. And if you analyzed it, Christianity is logical and it goes beyond that. That's what the Truth is logical but at the same time goes beyond logic - huge vast spiritual realms outhere. Christianity is actually not a religion, but The Way - thru Faith, a Relationship. A pretty awesome one too. Yep!

One day i believe you'll get to be part of it, when He finds you, you've got so much gifts in you and He can use them. Even now He already uses it. But you're right He has all the time in the world to find you... Oneday I pray that He'll send you someone you admire, to open the eyes of your heart, not so much of your mind, in His Love. not human love which will always disappoint you if you rely or cling on it too tightly.

*When it comes to a "theory". It changes, anyone can say whatever but a theory can change. In every scientific experiment and its results, there will always be 'standard error' or 'deviation' - meaning it's not 100%, ie. we can't know for sure. So while one theory might contain 'truth' (small letters) but it's not 100% because there's always errors. So it can be refuted. even a scientist or statitician, allows for an error. In other words, they're being humble too. Because they know that they're humans w/ limitations. So in a theory, might be the highest achievement whatsoever, but a theory can change. and the truth is real Truth / Perfect is 100% therefore does not and will not change.

But unfortunately unless this Truth alone reveals "Itself" to you, you won't be able to comprehend its entirety. You can understand a bit of it, but there will always be errors.

And i guess that's why there's wars due to "religions". Because "religions" have errors - alot of them, including divisions. Also because "religions" don't bring a person to God -- He's too HIGH for us! since He's the Highest, He can also become and reach the Lowest. Jesus Christ.

A skys****er / tallest building, can not stand unless the foundation is sooo low to hold it upright. And Christianity teaches & explains us alot of this, not skys****ers, but the Ultimate Humility, in a logical but Perfect way. God, is the Only One who is the Highest, so only He can go the Lowest, to the pit, to Hades - the Dark Forces... and conquers them all!
So we can stand "upright".

This is not a sci-fi or Lord of the Rings type of stories, this is the Truth / "Force" in that Scripture - which sci-fi / fantasy, etc. are sometimes based their inspirations on.

But noone can change anyone including to change you, people can only suggest even when they're blue in the face. But I know, there's One who can do more than that.... Peace beyond understanding.

That being said I gotta eat! May God be w/ you and my prayers always w/ you, even when I must depart...


"...... like a Special Olympics even when you win, you're still retarded"

And what is wrong w/ being retarded... are you not secure enough in yourself... even a retarded, is secure enough in themselves for being truly one : )


Posted by: Dreamweaver

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_the_fat
Also, a post from long ago that i really haven't thought about. It was me saying that I have a freedom of speech. Then Dreamweaver said there is an administrator who with a click cancels me. The he said I am welcome.

Just a thought. Wouldn't he be showing his intolerance for other's beliefs by kicking me out? Or is there some other explanation?



The other explanation is exactly what I said, you may have freedom of speech but noone has to tolerate your insults. I said that Jerry COULD take you off of this board if he wanted to. He obviously doesn't want to. I personally think you have overstepped the boundaries. I don't think you want to hear about anyone's experiences or anyone elses opinions. You don't want to have an intelligent conversation and I don't think you are here to honestly question anything about Christianity. So, goodbye from me Bob, I have had enough of you.

Jan


Posted by: JG

Bob your are so funny.

You like to try and get people upset by throwing something up in the air.

I have noticed that once you receive an answer
you almost never reply to the answer
you just throw up something else.

I answered you very clearly point by point
and all you could do was throw a stone.
You did not respond nor have you responded
to almost any of the things you have asked .

That shows me you are running from truth.
So far all I can see is
you want someone to agree with you
not show you truth.

When faced with the truth my friend
a really smart man considers.
I can see your youth in all you have done here.

The final path we see
will always take us to the top of the mountain.
Some will walk around the mountain many times
before they decide to go to the top.

Now I must say this:
Your understanding of WWI and WWII is so immature it can not be answered. There are no facts to support any of your claims you pulled out of the air. Your anti-Semitism and religious prejudice and bigotry is almost painful. I will forgive your youth for that. You forget there are people still alive who fought in those wars. There were three to five million Christians who died with my jewish relatives in those death camps because young men like you wanted to kill those who believed, not the other way around. You have no idea about what you are talking about in these matters my friend. It would be best if you did not try and show off until you have studied a little more.

So I say adieu my friend until next time.
I pray you will find the path and not pass it by.

Jerry
I pray I will see you in heaven


Posted by: bob_the_fat

I answered you very clearly point by point
and all you could do was throw a stone.
You did not respond nor have you responded
to almost any of the things you have asked .

I am thinking you meant the word I in place of you did not not respond nor have you responded to almost any of the things you (I) have asked.

What were those questions? What do I tell the father whose child is dieing in bed? I took that a ritorical question. If not a ritorical question, then tell them the truth.

Talena, that is not the opinion of ONE man. That is the opinion of MANY intelligent men. Who created man Talena? As far as Christianity is concerned, God did. Or am I wrong. Also, I have been told I have great debating skills by several of my English teachers.
Talena, why did those Christians die? Because they wanted to... no. Because someone in the US told them because you don't go to the college you are drafted correct or am I wrong on the draft issue like I have been told about the wars not being about religion? Because frankly if the Crusades weren't about religion what were they about?


Posted by: talena

AGAIN BOB! That is the definition of ONE man. ANYbody with ANY sense knows that the highest level of achievement in SCIENCE in NOT "theoretical" acceptance. The highest is having your "theory" proven to be a law. AND YES...a theory is just that... A THEORY. I would suggest that you go ask any professor of science that question and I can assure you that you will get the same answer as I have given.

Your debating skills leave much to be desired. When debating an affirmative/negative you can only negate the response of the other debater by answering their responses with fact...something I have YET to see you do.

Perhaps your english teachers can help you brush up on that as your science teachers are helping you look up de