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Baptism in the name of Jesus, or, Father, Son and Holy Ghost?
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Posted by: eagle4him
According to Britanica Encyclopedia, "...the baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words, Father, Son & Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the Second Century."--11th Edition, Vol. 3 ppg: 365-366
Canney Encyclopedia of Religion: "The early church always baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus until development of the Trinity Doctrine in the Second Century."
Acts 2:38-41: (Then) Peter said "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls"
Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"
The name is singular, the word names was not used intentionally. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit have the same name. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are titles of the same person. In a home the "man of the house" might also be the "father", the "husband", the "head of the household". these are simply titles of the same person, but his name could be Bill or Fred.
Mark 16:15
..In my name they will cast out demons...
Acts 4:12
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
His name is Jesus. There just is no other name.
Posted by: JeriRose12
Throughout Acts and New Testament they baptized in the Name of Jesus for he remission of sins. There are more examples of his than of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit one. I have changed my view regarding the Trinity. You can not find that word in the Bible for one. Because Christ means Anointed One, I view His Name his way: Lord (Father) Jesus (Son) Christ (Holy Spirit). His Name Lord Jesus Christ addresses each of the parts of the "Trintiy." The Old Tesament is plain: Hear, O, Israel, the Lord your God is ONE. We were taught three distinct beings all in harmony for different aspects of the same purpose. But as we study The Word, it seems like it's more the way my pastor says about the "Trinity": ONE God Who has three expressions in Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He doesn't preach this dogmaically, as in making a huge issue against the "Trinitarians." But I think that view lines up more scripturally than the three separate beings in one God. Also, I have read and heard (more than once) that they forced the translater of the Kings James Version to include the trinity scripture in 1 John 5:7. The Bible also says "In Him (Jesus) dwells the fullness of the Godhead." Jesus is not in God, in other words, ALL OF GOD is in Jesus (Colossians 2:9).
But, instead of argue with others on this, I let it rest on the scripture that says God is a mystery. If He's a mystery, how can we figure Him out? Whether three are one or one are three, it's still amazing! To God be the Glory for His GREATNESS!!!
JeriRose
Posted by: JeriRose12
Another insight I received is this:
We are created in the image of God.
We are three parts in one: body, soul, spirit.
So I beleive the three parts of God correspond as follows:
Father corresponds to our soul, because that is the seat of emotions and He is our Daddy who wants a relationship and that relationship meets our emotional needs.
Son corresponds to our BODY, becuase He came BODILY to earth and is the Head of the body and also experienced the things our physical bodies experience.
Holy Spirit corresponds with our spirit, and this is why we are told to be FILLED with the Holy Spirit and out of our bellies (spirits) will flow rivers of Living Water.
JeriRose
Posted by: Christian Commando
Beautiful JeriRose, right on.
Yes, while God's Word speaks of all 3 members of the trinity being equal as "God", they are all still seperate entities.
That aspect always needs to be kept very clear. For it was the Scripture mentioned that "God is one", was taken out of context by Old Test Leaders shortly before Christ appeared, thus most of the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah because of that mistaken and misunderstood Scripture. And all for lack of including all other Scriptures that showed the 3 distinct members of the Trinity.
As such, the "name" of each member of the Trinity stands for a specific member. God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and the holy Spirit. For God declares, God created all things "thru" His Son, and "by" the power of the Holy Spirit.
But also, how many times did Jesus declare to others, He came to do His "Father's" Will? Jesus said- "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Jhn 17- Who was Jesus praying to if He was God the Father, for His disciples? 17:1, 3,8, 13-14,21, plus more.?
Thier names are not titles, but names. For Jesus even declared that no man knows the day or hour He- (Jesus) will return, but the Father- (God), only.
"these are simply titles of the same person". That is exactly how the Jews were mislead to believe God is only one entity. And eveyrone knows where that lead up to. So, that is not true. Each member of the trinity is just as seperate and distinct, as the members of the "Body of christ", while still being all parts of the same body- (same God).
My dear friend Eagle4him-
Please understand no one is arguing any points with you ok. But realize, Scriptures do not back up God beng only a single entity with 3 different names people see fit to call titles. If you want "titles", try these- Adoni, Elohim, Yahwea. those are titles, as they stand for the various attributes of God. Those are titles, not to be confused with the actual names of the Trinity God.
God Bless!!
Posted by: sonrise
This is the simpliest way I have taught the Godhead. Water -H20- it has specific functions, when changed to steam(it is still H20) it functions differently, when changed to ice (still H20) it has still another function, yet the chemical makeup has never changed it is still water. blessings!!!!
Posted by: Christian Commando
sonrise-
Well, nice thought, butactually that is chemical changing of water. Water changes from liquid form into steam by heat, and from liquid to solif form by freezing. So, that really doesn't represent this the best. Sorry-
Jesus clearly explains each of the 3 are true entities, while still being all "God", when states these things-
"I and My Father are one". My Father is in Me, as I am in Him. jhn 17:21-23.
(That the Disciples would be one in them, as Christ is in God, and God in Christ.)
God Bless!!
Posted by: JeriRose12
Whether it's one way or the other (why do we let these things devide us?), what matters is that we are to put GOD first above ALL. I know there is a discussion form on here, but sometimes I see people going on at length on their view of the issue or even the scriptural view of the issue. But what I see as the biggest issue of need in the church is: Who is really hungry for GOD, whether He's One God with three titles or roles or He's three seperate beings of the same substance, as in the Devine subtance? We can aruge this round and round over and over, but will we seek God as passionately? What matters is growing close to God! How many of us will let a Christian discussion devide us from each other and from God (because we are so busy discussing Him)?
I have seen both views laid out very convincingly with MANY scriptural references. I couldn't locate the one I thought was there about God being a mystery or the mystery of God or something similar....
I have seen people get mad over these kind of discussions, thinking that the other person just wants to win an argument, etc. I am not here to win an argument one way or the other or say my view matters or whatever (my view doesn't matter). So, first of all, I would urge all of you, if you wanted to get in this discussion, don't get offended! We are adults here and CHRISTIANS (followers of Christ, who FORGAVE those killing Him), so let's act like adults and be as Christ-like as possible. Let's post with humility and kindness.
Now, I'm thinking there are too many "I" this and "I" that's in my post...but it isn't about me! I'm only trying to be a messanger for God. God is all for us coming to the most Biblical understanding of things....but He also for us having peace and unity.
3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. (Ephesians 4:3)
And He is really looking for those who will seek Him and Him alone. So this is just an encouragement to seek Him more than seeking to put across your idea (or the Bibles) in this dicsussion. Again, He says "Come let us reason together," and we are told to study to show ourselves approved. Plus, the Bureans searched the scriptures to see if these things were so. But, I have often been guilty of seeking out truth on a particular issue to the point of obsession and to where I am no longer desring to just be close to Him, to just spend time with Him, to just BE in His Presence. I quit longing for Him....and I honestly have to admit, I feel very driven at times like that, very BUSY and I begin to feel far from Him.
This is aimed at no-one and at all of us. I don't know your personal prayer lives or times with God. I only know what's happened to me in he past, which is why I will back off from these discussions at a certain point. No discussion is worth losing intimacy with God or being devided from my brothers and sisters.
JeriRose
Posted by: eagle4him
Excellent points of view. I do not claim to understand it all. I am merely opening myself up for the truth of God to be revealed. This is what God told me about this early this morning: We are adopted into the family of God through the works of Calvary. This is a legal admission into the family of God. If we were to go down to the courthouse in order to adopt a child into our family we would have to use our correct legal name, not our title. I might be father, brother, son, head of home, prayer partner, etc. but these are just titles. I must use my legal name in order to legally adopt a child.
God also prescribes a legal means for adopting us into His family. It is through the name of Jesus. It is the name of Jesus that saves us. It is the name of Jesus that heals us. It is the name of Jesus that delivers us. It is in the name of Jesus only that we can cast out demons, therefore it only makes perfectly legal sense to be baptized in the same name.
Consider what the Apostle Paul did:
When Paul went to the Gentiles in Ephesus many years after the Day of Pentecost and found some of the disciples of John the Baptist there.... Acts 19:2-5 (New American Standard Bible)
He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Apparently it seemed important enough to the Apostle to re-baptize the disciples or he would not have done it.
Jesus commanded His disciples to ..."teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of teh Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 28:19. He did not command them to use these words as a formula, but He mentions only one name. This singular use of teh word name is the focal point of the baptismal command. The titles of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost describe God's relationship to humanity. "Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is none other name under heaven given among men, shereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12
Th angle of the Lord instructed Joseph to name the child, born of the virgin Mary, JESUS. That is His name. Matthew 1:21. In John 5:43 Jesus said He comes in the Father's name, and the Comforter, the HOly Ghost, would be sent in teh name of Jesus. By baptizing in the name of Jesus we honor the Godhead, "for in Him dwelleth all the fullness of teh Godhead bodily." Col 2:9
Anyway, I will add more later. I must admit that this new and fresh revelation to me undid my doctrine and it did not make sense to me at first. I pray that all would be blessed and come to a better understanding. I have to admit that there are still in me things that have not yet been perfected in Christ. I hope and pray that we would all receive a greater measure of truth.
Word of man, come out in Jesus name. Word of God go in....
Posted by: Christian Commando
JeriRose-
Very good food for thought and good to be kept in mind during discussions. The main thing to remember of discussions is discussing points. Thats all. All kinds of people have all kinds of ideas, beliefs etc of what is read of God's Word.
But, when there is such variety, it is good these points are discussed, that should there be discrepancies, they can be pointed out and discussed in a Christ-like manner. The focus is as you stated, that God and glorifying Him be our focal point in any discussions, that our personal feelings nor emotions can be used to break down that witness.
God's ways are not ours, so... as we share in discussions, many other Truths can be discovered and we can all learn. God gave us His Word as a guideline to show ourselves approved in rightly dividing Truth as you mentioned. So discussions, if lead by God thru all involved, will Glorify Him and bring positive results in loving others more, plus learning more.
In seeking God, we are also seeking to learn more, that we can grow closer to Him. This comes partly thru discussions. Yes, at times there have been troubled moments. but, thats all a part of learning about God and growing stronger in Him, as we lean more and go beyond them.
If you want to call it "obsession", I also went thru that period when alot younger. I grew to finally believe God may be real and His word True, which set me on a very stringent and fervent road of seriously seeking wether He was real and word True.
It set me in a position finally of sharing God's word helping people at first without me realizing it. That conviction, to learn the Truth, came from the Holy Spirit driving me to need to know, coming from failed suicide attempts.
Not all people are the same. Like "Doubting thomas", some need to study and research further, to gain the conviction to whole heartedly believe. Jesus oblidged thomas when appeared to the Disciples after ressurrection- See Me, touch Me, touch My wounds and believe.
So, this type of thing is God driven as well for those who need it and actually helps draw them closer to God thru Christ as they learn. Thus, discussions, by nature, should help each involved, to grow closer to God, as they share info back and forth. If Glorifying God, they will not promote a contest who is smarter or can out tlk another, nor promote attacks against any involved. They are strictly gor loving and learning, for growing closer to God.
Eagle4him-
yes quite so on your first point. But, if you've ever been involved in an actual legal adoption, you'd find as well, they ask what your position is, be it aunt, uncle, cousin, father, mother, legal guardian, etc.
It is asked what blood relation, if any, you are to a child. As such, a particular "title" is then written into the space that refers to the answer you give.
Moses asked God once, - when the Pharoah asks who sent me, who should I say sent me? God declared tell him- "I AM that I AM sent you".
Yes, you use your legal name, but also must give an answer to the type of adoption your seeking, in order for them to put down the type of legal authority you will be over that child by "title".
Yes, Paul baptized them again, for what had been done the first time, was baptizing in the name of a mere mortal, not in the name of Jesus- (God in the flesh).
Yes, Jesus taught that in Matt. 20, for the purpose of reverancing all 3 Members of the Trinity being equally God, yet seperate, as noted, entities.
I am interested in understanding what is mean't tho by, "It is the name of Jesus that heals us". and " It is the name of Jesus that delivers us". Is this in reference only to the name, or a belief in Jesus as (God in the flesh)?
Know that even an unsaved person who believed in Jesus when on earth was seeing mirales done when claimed "in His Name". But it was belief in Christ who had done miracles, not as the Messiah. Why?
When Jesus and the others came back thru the area, that person expected to be accepted by Jesus, but was rejected by Christ.
My understanding has always been miracles of any kind of God, has always been done, by a belief in Jesus Christ Himself, not His Name alone. I've never witnessed any miracles done just by using that Name alone, but by the faith and belief of the one using Christ's Name, in the Lord Jesus Himself as "God in the flesh".
Just some insights.
God Bless!!
Posted by: eagle4him
In Smith Wigglesworths books he writes about many miracles. One in particual was a healing using only the name of Jesus, and no other prayer.
In the beginning was THE WORD. And THE WORD was with God and THE WORD was God.
CC when you sign checks to you use a title son, brother, moderator, or do you have to sign on the line with your legal name? Just a question.
I am not stating that it is only the name that saves, delivers or heals, although in Wigglesworth's case it did heal. It is definitely belief in followed by action in the name of Jesus.
CC I am enjoying your insights into God's revealed word. Look into Acts 2:38. Here is the only plan of salvation. 1. Repentance--this is the death to self 2. Baptism in Jesus name--this is the burial 3.you will receive the Holy Ghost--this is the resurrection, into the new life!
Posted by: Christian Commando
Hi Bro-
My legal name. Now, I have a question for you-
Have you ever adopted Children or become a legal guardian over any children?
When you go thru the Court system to legally adopt, several of the forms require the person applying for the adoption, to fill in a "title" of the authorized guardianship being saught, wether its Father, uncle, aunt, cousin, etc.
secondly- I've known couples who've adopted children legally and were told of a financial endowment that went along with the children to help with thier care and needs. But, in order for anyone to be able to get the funds out of account, they had to fill out more forms, showing thier legal guardianship, be it what it may, besides thier legal name. Just signing a "legal name" was not enough.
Remember, you used "adoption" as the example, not writing checks. These two are not similar in relation at all. There is a whole world more, involved in a legal adoption, compared to simply writing out a check from your bank account.
Very good except for one thing, its not the Name of Christ that saves, its God by His Grace thru our faith in Jesus Christ- (the person who was God in the flesh) overcoming death by sin. If that were the case, then we could say- in the name of God, or in the name of the Holy Spirit you are saved.
But, thats not right. We actually only "declare"- claim these things in Jesus' Name, because God promises these declarations will come true when "claimed"- (declared) in the name of Jesus.
Quite right about Wigglesworth. The problem most have tho, is in understanding how that worked for him. Wigglesworth has faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the entity known as the "Son of God", not just the name, but the Scriptures that declare those Promises when done so "in the name of Jesus".
Keep this in mind as well. There were several examples given in God's Word, what happens with people who did not believe in God (Old Test), or Christ- (New Test).
1- sodom and Gomorah who rejected God and thus lived continuously in abominable unnatural sexual sin. They were eventully destroyed right?
2- Scriptures tell us of several Jewish settlements where Christ Ministered in, but very few if any mirales were wrought because of thier unbelief. Right?
3- Capernaum, where the Gospel of Christ was rejected as well, right?
Jesus Christ was also known as the "Messiah"- (annointed one, sent one, etc). But, Jesus was there in person and rejected, regardless of mirales, Gospel, name, etc.
Thus, it was the unbelief of who Jesus was, that kept miracles and faith from being wrought. When people don't believe who Jesus really is, when hear the word preached about him, its not the lack of disbelief in the Name of Jesus, but in Jesus Himself that stops miracles, faith and more from being produced.
Its same with belief, faith and seeing miracles done. Its from believing in Jesus for who He was back in his day here on earth and what He is today- Lord and Savior. Its not the name alone, otherwise we could find a mexican or other with the name Jesus- (pronounced hezues), and do miracles by that name too then, right?
I don't think so. Works without faith is dead. But faith without works is alive. So, its not the name alone, but the faith in Jesus Christ for who He is and what He's done produces the power of miracles from God.
God Bless!!