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Scared of dying ?

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Posted by: Frederik

I don't know I am scared of many things and most likely also of dying.
Is this a shame for a christian ?


Posted by: jsustaita

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederik
I don't know I am scared of many things and most likely also of dying.
Is this a shame for a christian ?


"The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My father will honor the one who serves me." John 12: 25-26

"Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot dieagain; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus." Romans 6:8-11

Do not fear death. The only fear you should have is of God himself, and a healthy fear at that. It helps to remind you that God is all-powerful, but also that he is love. While he could easily destroy us, his love assures us that the world will not be destroyed until Jesus comes again when everything shall be made anew. Even then, we will not be harmed as those who live for sin will be.

Frederick, God pointed this one out to me for you.

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions - it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Ephesians 2:4-10

Do not fear Frederick, for it is written:
"No one will be able to stand up against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you." Joshua 1:5

Be comforted Frederick, for it is written:
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus CHrist, the Father of all compassions and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have recieved from God. For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through CHrist our comfort overflows. If we are distresseed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in your patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer. And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort." 2 Corinthians 1:3-7


Posted by: DarkSkies

Personally i am scared of dying - but i hate living so i am very confused............. i would rather like living and not die but like do i have a choice?
I better start going to some phobias of death kinda counselling meetings... coz i do have a fear of dying.... though i was once at the brink of death but i don't remember any weird things happening.

I was 16 and I had a ear infection which got far too deep and it infected my skull bone... part of the skull had to be taken away because the infection was 1 milimetre away from the brain, if it had touched the brain i would have been paralysed, brain damaged or both or worse dead!!!
Dr reckon it was a miracle that they caught it in time because they said in 3 days i would have surely of been dead.
I guess death is alot like sleeping and living in a wonderful dream but i am still scared of it!

Well this is my opinion.

Bye xxx


Posted by: DarkSkies

Frederick don't be ashamed of being afraid to die... because i am afraid too ... and you have nothig to fear about being judged or damned if you keep on praying for forgiveness and live truly by the 10 commandments!!!


Posted by: ANOINTED WARRIOR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederik
I don't know I am scared of many things and most likely also of dying.
Is this a shame for a christian ?



nope its not a shame it just means you're human like the rest of us, and Jesus understands perfectly why were scared to die, so if or when the time comes for us to die, those who have Jesus in there heart he will send angels and himself to come comfort us in the time of death.....which actually youre more alive up there than down here so there really nothing to be afraid of, cause Jesus took the sting from death, It doesnt hurt anymore when we die, Jesus conquered death once and for all..................


Posted by: jedijeb

You are not alone Frederik, while I don't fear death as to it being the end of my life, I do have a fear of the act of physically dying. For me it is like so many things I havn't done before, I fear what I haven't experienced. I was terrified the first time I rode a bicycle without the training wheels the first time, but once I did it and knew I wouldnt get hurt it was a wonderful experience. I imagine death will be like that, when it first comes it will be scarey, but once I see the other side, I will be so happy it wont matter any more.


Posted by: cgirl

Yes that is a shame. Shame on you! And how dare you say such a thing?!

Um, just kidding ya. LOL. Who isn't scared of dying? I've talked to some old folks, they seem less afraid than teeny-boppers like yourself.


Posted by: Rockrz

Living in fear is a sin because it doesn't proceed from faith (anything that does not proceed from faith is sin)

God commands His people all through the Bible to "Fear Not"!

That's because He's with us. If He's with us, what have we to fear?
We've been set free from the fear of death the book of Hebrews tells us. Death has lost it's sting, and has no power over us.

Here's some Biblical resources that you need to feed on for the rest of the time you're on this planet:

Anti-death scriptures

2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

John 8:15
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Hebrews 2:14-16
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the
suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace
of God should taste death for every man.

1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Corinthians 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Colossians 2:15
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Philippians 1:22-25
But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

Paul chose to stay . . . nuff said (If he can choose, so can we since God is no respector of persons)


Psalm 116:15
Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints
(Precious - from # 3365 (Strong’s) “costly”
This scripture means “COSTLY” in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints – God needs us here!)

Psalm 91:14-16
Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
With long life will I satisfy him, and show him my salvation.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Psalm 91:16
With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

Psalm 118:17
I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 Peter 3:10 (Psalms 34:11-13)
For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile

Psalm 16:11
Thou wilt shew me the path of life:

Psalm 27:1
The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

Psalm 36: 8-10
They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures.
For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.
O continue thy lovingkindness unto them that know thee; and thy righteousness to the upright in heart.

Psalm 64:1,2
Hear my voice, O God, in my prayer: preserve my life from fear of the enemy.
Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity:

Psalm 66:8,9
O bless our God, ye people, and make the voice of his praise to be heard:
Which holdeth our soul in life, and suffereth not our feet to be moved.

Psalm 103:4,5
Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.

Proverbs 3:1,2
My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.

Proverbs 3:13-16
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.

Proverbs 4:10
Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many.

Proverbs 9:10,11
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
For by me thy days shall be multiplied, and the years of thy life shall be increased.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


Why God’s people die
(why should a life be needlessly ended early? and don't tell me "God takes people early", because that would make Him muderer!!!)

Proverbs 19:23
The fear of the LORD tendeth to life: and he that hath it shall abide satisfied; he shall not be visited with evil. Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Proverbs 29:18
Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.
(see also: 2 Corinthians 4:4, and Ephesians 1:18)

1 Corinthians 11:28-30
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.


Posted by: Frederik

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedijeb
You are not alone Frederik, while I don't fear death as to it being the end of my life, I do have a fear of the act of physically dying.


Exactly, this is also what I have. I simply fear suffering and others having to see me suffering. I am also scared of dying in a public place with people staring at me. Maybe I should write a book about my fear of dying in public places.


Posted by: Rockrz

Quote:
Maybe I should write a book about my fear of dying in public places


By doing this you are denying what Jesus did on the Cross to free mankind from sin and death.

You would be disrespecting our Lord, and magnifying the devil.
Do you feel comfortable making the devil look more powerful than Jesus?

Do you think it is right to discount God's Word as being untrue, and choosing to believe that the lies of the devil have more power than God's Word?

Are you a born-again Christian?
If you are, you're way behind in knowledge. It's time to get up to speed, and in step with what God has done for us in Christ Jesus.

There's no excuse for this kind of thinking . . .


Posted by: ChristianGal

The bible says that his perfect love casts out all fear. I had a friend who passed away not long ago infront of her family. She knew that her time was coming and died with a huge smile on her face and she did say she saw Jesus coming for her. Her death was a happy one. She was going to be united with the Lord and she found joy in her own death. Before she died she told me that she loved me and my heart broke for her especially seeing this once healthy and strong woman reduced to almost a skeletal figure and so close to death. She inspired me to cling on to God even more.


Posted by: Rockrz

That's a beautiful story to hear about, but in reality . . . it's not God's best, or His Will.

That woman should never had died early at all because Jesus took upon Himself whatever it was that killed her. He paid the price for that, so she wouldn't have to.

Here's 3 reasons why people die before their time:

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Proverbs 29:18
Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.
(see also: 2 Corinthians 4:4, and Ephesians 1:18)

1 Corinthians 11:28-30
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

It IS NOT God's will for any of His people to die early and be put out of their body by the devil.

In fact, you know that is the devil's plan to do this, so if we're smart we will start building ourselves up in this area so we can "live & not die, that we may declare the works of the Lord".

Another good point that goes right in with this is that if we rely solely upon medical science to keep us well, we are only setting ourselves up to die early if we come down with something that medical science can't do anything about.

An honest doctor will tell you that medical science knows very little about curing someone. It's why they call it "practicing medicine", because they are continually trying to get it right.

And all the while there are new diseases coming out that they have no clue how to cure.

Jesus has taken all sickness upon Himself, so we can live free from their effects. The first step is to believe this.

Here's a few scriptures to start everyone off on:

Isaiah 53:4
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows

Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Psalm 103:2,3
2) Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3) Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death

Romans 8:32
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Proverbs 4:20-22
20) My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
21) Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
22) For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.

2 Corinthians 2:14
Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ

1 John 3:8
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

James 5:15
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Psalm 30:2
O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me

Psalm 42:11
Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God.

Psalm 107:20
He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions (Read all of Psalms 107)

Isaiah 40:31
But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Psalm 34:10
The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing

Psalm 97:10
Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked

Psalm 119:93
I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me

John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Luke 5:18-20,24,25
18) And, behold, men brought in a bed a man which was taken with a palsy: and they sought means to bring him in, and to lay him before him.
19) And when they could not find by what way they might bring him in because of the multitude, they went upon the housetop, and let him down through the tiling with his couch into the midst before Jesus.
20) And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
24) But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.
25) And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.

Jeremiah 30:17
For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.


Posted by: jedijeb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockrz
That's a beautiful story to hear about, but in reality . . . it's not God's best, or His Will.

That woman should never had died early at all because Jesus took upon Himself whatever it was that killed her. He paid the price for that, so she wouldn't have to.


If this is true then you are saying that each and every person who was in the World Trade Towers and Planes on 9/11 were living in sin. If there was a rightous person on one of those planes then they should have walked away from the crash unharmed. I do not doubt that God could have made a person walk out of the fire of those crashes without so much as a singd hair, but I also believe that God sets some peoples lives shorter than others for a purpose.

I don't doubt God's healing power but I also don't like using the wrong scriptures to back it up.

1Pe 2:20 For what glory [is it], if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently, this [is] acceptable with God.
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

This passage refers to the healing of our souls from sin not physical healing as seen from the Matthew Henry commentary on this passage:

(2.) The sufferings he underwent were stripes, wounds, and death, the death of the cross - servile and ignominious punishments! (3.) The reason of his sufferings: He bore our sins, which teaches, [1.] That Christ, in his sufferings, stood charged with our sins, as one who had undertaken to put them away by the sacrifice of himself, Isa_53:6. [2.] That he bore the punishment of them, and thereby satisfied divine justice. [3.] That hereby he takes away our sins, and removes them away from us; as the scape-goat did typically bear the sins of the people on his head, and then carried them quite away, (Lev_16:21, Lev_16:22), so the Lamb of God does first bear our sins in his own body, and thereby take away the sins of the world,

The passage in Isaiah is what Peter was quoting and also speaks to the healing of our soul:

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

And Matthew Henry explains it more clearly in the commentary on this passage:

(2.) Our sins are our sorrows and our griefs (Isa_53:4), or, as it may be read, our sicknesses and our wounds: the Septuagint reads it, our sins; and so the apostle, 1Pe_2:24. Our original corruptions are the sickness and disease of the soul, an habitual indisposition; our actual transgressions are the wounds of the soul, which put conscience to pain, if it be not seared and senseless. Or our sins are called our griefs and sorrows because all our griefs and sorrows are owing to our sins and our sins deserve all our griefs and sorrows, even those that are most extreme and everlasting.

As I said I believe in God's healing power and I have experienced it myself, but I don't like these verses being misquoted in reference to physical healing.

Also if dieing early is not God's will for us except as a result of our sins, then why did Stephen die at a young age and why wasn't he resurected after the stoning?

Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

God sometimes calls someone to die early as a witness. I know that the story of Stephen encourages me to stand for Jesus no matter what comes my way. Who is to say that ChristianGal's friend didn't die as a witness to someone? I know I would dare not say God didn't have a reason for her dieing early. From the comment ChristianGal made "She inspired me to cling on to God even more" maybe this woman died to be a witness for God's power and glory and who is to say that someone who witnessed it didn't come to know Christ through it. God can and does work in ways we don't understand and I won't dare to limit Him. Just as God says:

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

God can set someone's life to end at an early age if it brings glory to Him. If God wants to end my life before I turn 40 to show someone His power and glory and bring them to Him for salvation then I am not going to question Him. I have a good friend whos son died at 12. My friend and his wife are and always have been centered on God's will. Yet they had a son who was born with Down's Syndrome and died of cancer at age 12, I know he wasn't living in sin to cause it and neither were his parents, but God say fit to have him born that way and to die early. Anyone who knows my friend has been blessed by his faith and that faith was only shown more strongly through the trials of his son. God saw fit not to heal him because it served His purpose. Had he been born normal and healthy who knows if my friend would be as strong in his faith as he is now. God didn't allow Satan to put boils upon Job because he wasn't living for God, but to demonstrate to the world Job's faith, just as the untimely death of his children showed his faith.

Sometimes people die early and it is God's will. Sometimes we get sick just so God can demonstrate His power and glory just as with Lazarus. Only God knows why, but you can know it is to glorify Him.


Posted by: ChristianGal

I guess that satan twisted and manipulated the word of God to suit his purposes. Jesus fought back in the desert with the word. Satan knows that the answers are all in the bible so he tries to trick us even with the word. My advice would be for you to just keep focussed on God and life. Get the word into you, pray often and don't pre-occupy yourself with fearing death. Get busy living for God.


Posted by: Rockrz

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristianGal
If this is true then you are saying that each and every person who was in the World Trade Towers and Planes on 9/11 were living in sin.

You're taking what I said WAY out of context, and are actually aurguing in favor of darkness, and death's right to destroy us any time it wants to!

Yes, all of mankind was born into sin. That is a fact.
Concerning 9/11...God spoke to thousands that day and re-arranged their lives so that they were not in the area when they normally would have been. God speaks to all people, especially Christians. Those that aren't His are still loved by Him and He wants them to be saved and will still try to protect them by telling them in advance that danger is on the horizon. Of course, most non-Christians don't hear Him, and it's sad to say that most Christians don't hear Him eaither because they are carnally minded, which is living by the thoughts of death (their thinking process, and what they believe and speak is all death & fear based)

All those scriptures that you quoted have nothing to do with us having sickness & disease...in fact, you are suggesting that God is putting sickness, disease, and trouble on people.

If this is what you think and believe...you know very little about our Father, and His Son Jesus Christ.

Jesus specifically said that He only did what He saw His Father do, right? Now, where in scripture did Jesus put sickness, disease, and trouble on people? You won't find it, because He never did that.

Through Jesus, God has translated born-again believers from the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of His dear Son. As Christians, we are no longer under the law of sin and death...we are under the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus...provided that we're spiritually minded (according to Romans ch. 8)

When Christians don't know this, and aren't living according to the benefits that are rightfully our, then they get the sames results as people that don't even know God at all.

Remember, God IS NOT mocked...whatsoever a man sows, he will also reap! If a Christian (on their way to Heaven) sows to the flesh and the carnal way of thinking (thinking & living just like the world does), they will reap death, and all of it's manifestations (sickness, grief, sorrow, destruction, etc)

What you're thinking is that I'm claiming that these people died because of the sin that they had committed, which is not what I'm referring to. I'm simply saying that all of mankind is living under the law of sin and death if they are living as carnally minded people. (many Christians have this same problem)

The devil is the god of this world, and he comes to steal, kill and destroy. Jesus specifically said this.

So, when you say that God is putting sickness & disease on His people, you are claiming that He is a devil....I wouldn't be making that accusation about God anymore. God rejects that kind of talk about Himself because it is a lie.

And the part you were talking about the "healing of our souls"....is in correct. You believe wrongly about this. Look at the life of Jesus...He healed a bunch of sick folk because it's God's will that we be well. It's the devil's will that we be sick and even die.

Who are you going to listen to? God's written Word (without mis-interpreting it), or the devil and the religious lies he's brought into the church to mis-lead God's people in an attempt to make them ineffective?


Posted by: jedijeb

Rockrz,

What I was mainly replying to was your statement that God doesn't have people who are walking a close walk with Him die early.

"That woman should never had died early at all because Jesus took upon Himself whatever it was that killed her. He paid the price for that, so she wouldn't have to."

If that is true then Stephen shouldn't have died from the stoning.

Also you said that God will never put any sickness upon His people, but He did put sickness upon Miriam as a punishment:

Num 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Num 12:9 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.
Num 12:10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam [became] leprous, [white] as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, [she was] leprous.

"So, when you say that God is putting sickness & disease on His people, you are claiming that He is a devil...."

No I am not claiming God is a devil, but I am saying that He is soverign and can do whatever He wants to do.

"And the part you were talking about the "healing of our souls"....is in correct. You believe wrongly about this. Look at the life of Jesus...He healed a bunch of sick folk because it's God's will that we be well. It's the devil's will that we be sick and even die."

I also never said Jesus didn't heal, I believe in His healing power and have experienced it myself. The healing of our souls is in reference to those specific two passages I mentioned and the verses which say " by His stripes we are healed" which when taken in context with the rest of the verses before and after them show it is referring to the healing of our broken relationship with God, even Matthew Henry says this is what that is referring to. Jesus healed many people and is still healing them today that is true and there are many other verses which speak to this.

My main qualm with your origional post was you seemed to imply that ChristianGal's friend died because she wasn't walking close to God, maybe I misread what you were saying there. Her testimony seems to show that she was walking close to God.

I give God the glory in all that I do and I ask Him to lead me in all that I think, say and do. I am not perfect and would never claim to be but I feel that He is showing me these things. We can not know all the mysteries of God till Jesus comes again but I do seek what He will reveal to me along the way.


Posted by: Rockrz

If they were walking closely enough with God, reckon He would reveal to them enough knowledge to be able to walk in the knowledge that the devil has been stripped of all his power and authority?

Besides, Stephen didn't have to die that way! Why didn't He do what Elijah did by believing and expecting God to deliver him? What about the 3 Hebrew children that were cast into the firey furnace? What about all those times in the Bible where God protected His people from sure death?

Just goes to show you that God desire to protect His people, and He always does, IF we do what He tells us to do!

We know God is no respecter of persons...He is a respecter of faith! I'd have to say Stephen either didn't believe God for deliverance, or maybe He simply saw Jesus STANDING UP IN GLORY. The Bible says that no man can look upon God's glory and stay in His body.

I'm not saying that this lady didn't love God, or isn't going to Heaven. That's not the point. What I'm saying is that in the New Covenant (where we live today) Jesus Christ has totally, absolutely defeated the devil, who comes to steal, kill, and destroy! Jesus said that He has come to give us LIFE, and more of it! Right?

Quote:
We can not know all the mysteries of God till Jesus comes again
That's not true!

Study this for while . . . I mean meditate on it and realize that this IS God speaking through the Holy Spirit:

1 Corinthians 2:9-14
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
BUT God HAS revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural (or carnal) man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It's a very sad fact that many Christians today don't have a clue about the promises of God. Nope, they're too busy doing the things of this world, and they are paying the price for it by reaping the same destruction that people in the world are reaping.

You can't get way from seed time & harvest. Jesus said the entire kingdom of God works directly from this principle, but His people seem to ignore it. It's too bad, really.


Quote:
He is sovereign and can do whatever He wants to do


No, God cannot go around breaking His own Word! If He did, it would make Him a liar. No, God watches over His Word to perform it, and it's impossible for Him to lie. He has given His Word that He has destroyed the devil's power & authority over us, and has translated us from the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of His dear Son. (you should get out your Concordance, and look some of these scriptures up)

If someone dies from anything in the natural, carnal world that the enemy has put on them to destroy them, then that person lacks knowledge, vision, or doesn't understand that the Body of Christ has paid for all the effects of Adam's sin and what that brought upon mankind.

James 1:13,14
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The word "tempted", means tested, tried, trial (go look it up in the original Greek that the New Testament was written in)

God IS NOT trying to kill us! He has sent Jesus to take back the authority in this earth that Adam once had, but gave over to the devil be committing sin. This is why the devil is the god of this "carnal" world.

If you would go study Romans, ch 8 you'll find that we are supposed to be living, thinking, talking in the Spirit of God, not living according to man's wisdom, which states that God must be putting these bad things on us because He's trying to teach us something.

No, God sent the Holy Ghost to be the teacher of the Church. He's not using the devil as His whipping boy to shake us up. This is what carnally, religious minded men teach and they got their information from the devil and not from God's Word.

The enemy is a pro at taking God's Word and making it look as though God is the one causing people to die, get hurt, get sick, etc. It's the devil's game to try and make people lay down and not resist him because they think it's coming from God.

And Miriam got sick because God allowed it to come on her, due to the fact that she was disobedient. It was under the Old Covenant. Things back then where TOTALLY different because Jesus had not yet come to the Cross to destroy the works of darkness.

You have to pay attention to scriptures all over the New Covenant like this one:

2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

If you're thinking like religion teaches you to think, and like mere carnal men, then you'll never get any revelation of any of this.

I suggest you study the New Covenant and choose to take advantage of the rights and privileges that Jesus paid so dearly for us to have!

It's the least we can do . . .


Posted by: jedijeb

I believe that God reveals to us through the Holy Spirit what He wants us to know, not everything He knows. There will always be mysteries which God doesn't reveal to us unless it is His will to reveal it.

1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.

When we are face to face with God then we will know all, but then we will no longer have the limitations of the flesh upon us.

I never said God would break His own Word, I said He can do anything He wants to do. God would now want to break His Word or He wouldn't be God.

As Christians it is never promised to us that we will not suffer, actually it is said that we will suffer as Christ suffered.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:
Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward.

But through the Holy Spirit we are given the strength to endure the suffering and become stronger because of it. We will be attacked by Satan during our walk with Christ because the enemy doesn't want us to become all that we can be. But by trusting in God we will have the power to overcome the attacks.

I would like to hear your interpertation of this passage because I have trouble with it at times.

2Co 12:7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch.
2Co 12:8 Concerning this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he hath said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my power is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

I have always taken it to say that God didn't remove Paul's trouble because through it his faith was increased by relying on God to supply the strength to overcome it. It seems to be an ongoing struggle which God has allowed.

I also know that God doen't tempt us, it says that in Ephesians, but it also says that we will be tempted but not above what we can bear. That would point to the fact that the closer we walk with God the more we will be tempted, but we will have more strength to deal with the temptations and not fall into sin because of them. God also uses the trials and temptations which befall us to strengthen us for His work. God does not bring them upon us, the enemy does that, but He uses them to build us up and purify us through faith.

Jam 1:2 Count it all joy, my brethren, when ye fall into manifold temptations;
Jam 1:3 Knowing that the proving of your faith worketh patience.
Jam 1:4 And let patience have its perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, lacking in nothing.
Jam 1:5 But if any of you lacketh wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

The commentary I have explains these verses as follows:

We now come to consider the matter of this epistle. In this paragraph we have the following things to be observed: -
I. The suffering state of Christians in this world is represented, and that in a very instructive manner, if we attend to what is plainly and necessarily implied, together with what is fully expressed. 1. It is implied that troubles and afflictions may be the lot of the best Christians, even of those who have the most reason to think and hope well of themselves. Such as have a title to the greatest joy may yet endure very grievous afflictions. As good people are liable to be scattered, they must not think it strange if they meet with troubles. 2. These outward afflictions and troubles are temptations to them. The devil endeavours by sufferings and crosses to draw men to sin and to deter them from duty, or unfit them for it; but, as our afflictions are in God's hand, they are intended for the trial and improvement of our graces. The gold is put into the furnace, that it may be purified. 3. These temptations may be numerous and various: Divers temptations, as the apostle speaks. Our trials may be of many and different kinds, and therefore we have need to put on the whole armour of God. We must be armed on every side, because temptations lie on all sides. 4. The trials of a good man are such as he does not create to himself, nor sinfully pull upon himself; but they are such as he is said to fall into. And for this reason they are the better borne by him.

I see the trials which we go through to be something to strengthen me. I turn to God with all my problems, and He gives me strength through the Holy Spirit to deal with each one. Not all trials are brought upon us by sin, some are allowed to fall upon us to increase our faith. God does all to His glory, be it lifting us up completely out of our troubles or giving us the power to endure them to the end. If it is a greater witness to someone else to see me endure a hardship in faith then God will give me the ability to endure it to whatever end I must. If it is a greater witness to someone to see me removed from a hardship with a spectacular miracle then God will provide the miracle. Whatever brings Him the most glory in the situation is what He will do and is what I want in my life. If at times I must suffer for God's glory to be shown then I gladly endure it because I know that in the end when I triumph with my joy intact and praising God the plans of the enemy are totally thwarted in a spectacular way and he hates that even more. I may be wrong in my beliefs but if Jesus and the Apostles can endure suffering for the glory of God then I count my self blessed when I can endure them also.


Posted by: StarChilde

JEDIJEB, It was my intention, to reflect upon and study this passage of scripture, because I have heard many interpretations of it over the years. I gather commentary views & such, to help with this also. I have done that part of it, but right now our 2 yr. old KaeLyn is wanting mom off of the computer, and so for now, I will leave the Bible Commentaries' views on this, and prayerfully study and reflect on my interpretation of it, posting it later. I apologize for the lengthiness of this post, it does cover alot though:

FROM EASTON BIBLE COMMENTARY


2Co 12:7-10). Many interpretations have been given of this passage. (1.) Roman Catholic writers think that it denotes suggestions to impiety.
(2.) Luther, Calvin, and other Reformers interpret the expression as denoting temptation to unbelief.

(3.) Others suppose the expression refers to "a pain in the ear or head," epileptic fits, or, in general, to some severe physical infirmity, which was a hindrance to the apostle in his work (comp. 1Co 2:3; 2Co 10:10; 11:30; Ga 4:13-14; 6:17). With a great amount of probability, it has been alleged that his malady was defect of sight, consequent on the dazzling light which shone around him at his conversion, acute opthalmia. This would account for the statements in Ga 4:14; 2Co 10:10; also Ac 23:5, and for his generally making use of the help of an amanuensis (comp. Ro 16:22, etc.).

(4.) Another view which has been maintained is that this "thorn" consisted in an infirmity of temper, to which he occasionally gave way, and which interfered with his success (comp. Ac 15:39; 23:2-5). If we consider the fact, "which the experience of God's saints in all ages has conclusively established, of the difficulty of subduing an infirmity of temper, as well as the pain, remorse, and humiliation such an infirmity is wont to cause to those who groan under it, we may be inclined to believe that not the least probable hypothesis concerning the 'thorn' or 'stake' in the flesh is that the loving heart of the apostle bewailed as his sorest trial the misfortune that, by impatience in word, he had often wounded those for whom he would willingly have given his life" (Lias's Second Cor., Introd.).

2Co 12:10
v7-10 The apostle gives an account of the method God took to keep him humble, and to prevent his being lifted up above measure, on account of the visions and revelations he had. We are not told what this thorn in the flesh was, whether some great trouble, or some great temptation. But God often brings this good out of evil, that the reproaches of our enemies help to hide pride from us. If God loves us, he will keep us from being exalted above measure; and spiritual burdens are ordered to cure spiritual pride. This thorn in the flesh is said to be a messenger of Satan which he sent for evil; but God designed it, and overruled it for good. Prayer is a salve for every sore, a remedy for every malady; and when we are afflicted with thorns in the flesh, we should give ourselves to prayer. If an answer be not given to the first prayer, nor to the second, we are to continue praying. Troubles are sent to teach us to pray; and are continued, to teach us to continue instant in prayer. Though God accepts the prayer of faith, yet he does not always give what is asked for: as he sometimes grants in wrath, so he sometimes denies in love. When God does not take away our troubles and temptations, yet, if he gives grace enough for us, we have no reason to complain. Grace signifies the good-will of God towards us, and that is enough to enlighten and enliven us, sufficient to strengthen and comfort in all afflictions and distresses. His strength is made perfect in our weakness. Thus his grace is manifested and magnified. When we are weak in ourselves, then we are strong in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ; when we feel that we are weak in ourselves, then we go to Christ, receive strength from him, and enjoy most the supplies of Divine strength and grace.

MORRIS BIBLE SYNOPSIS:

Except for Paul's letter to Philemon, "Second" Corinthians is the least systematic and doctrinal and the most personal letter that he wrote. Paul's intense emotion and fiery personality are revealed more clearly here than in any other epistle.
It is full of natural digressions and meanderings. He tells of some very personal experiences such as his vision of the "third heaven" (2Cor.12v1-4) and of his "thorn in the flesh" (2Cor.12v7-9).
Throughout the letter, there is a suppressed indignation, a deep sadness, and a strong undercurrent of defensiveness. He was being attacked and felt forced to justify his authority against false legalistic teachers who had meddled in his work.
He warned the congregation against some errors, instructed them in matters of duty as Christians, and expressed his happiness that they had heeded what he had to say in "First" Corinthians. But the real watchword of "Second" Corinthians is that we must all be loyal to Christ, not to human personalities.

BARCLAY’S DAILY STUDY BIBLE:

THE THORN AND THE GRACE

2Cor.12:1-10

I must continue to boast. It is not good for me to do so, all the same I will come to visions and revelations given to me by the Lord. I know a man in Christ, who, fourteen years ago--whether it was in the body I do not know; whether it was out of the body I do not know; God knows--was caught up to the third heaven. And I know that this man about whom I am speaking--whether it was with the body or without the body, I do not know; God knows--was caught up to Paradise and heard words which can never be uttered, which it is not lawful for a man to speak. It is about such a man that I will boast. About myself I will not boast, for, if I wish to boast, I will not be such a fool, for I will speak the truth. But I forbear to boast in case anyone forms a judgment about me beyond what he sees in me and hears from me.
And because of the surpassing nature of the revelation granted to me--the reason was that I might not become exalted with pride--there was given to me a stake in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I might not be exalted with pride. Three times I prayed urgently to the Lord about this, beseeching him that it might depart from me. And he said to me, "My grace is enough for you, for power is perfected in weakness." So it is with the greatest gladness that I boast in my weaknesses so that the power of Christ may pitch its tent upon me. Therefore I rejoice in weaknesses, in insults, in inescapable things, in persecutions, in straitened circumstances, for whenever I am weak, then I am strong.

If we have any sensitiveness, we should read this passage with a certain reverence, for in it Paul lays bare his heart and shows us at one and the same time his glory and his pain.

All against his will he is still setting out his credentials, and he tells of an experience at which we can only wonder and which we cannot even try to probe. In the strangest way he seems to stand outside himself and look at himself. "I know a man," he says. The man is himself and yet Paul can look at the man who had this amazing experience with a kind of wondering detachment. For the mystic, the great aim of all religious experience is the vision of God and union with him.

The mystic always has aimed at that moment of wonder when "the seer and the Seen are one." In their traditions the Jews said that four rabbis had had this vision of God. Ben Azai had seen the glory and had died. Ben Soma beheld it and went mad. Acher saw it and "cut up the young plants," that is, in spite of the vision he became a heretic and ruined the garden of truth. Akiba alone ascended in peace and in peace came back. We cannot even guess what happened to Paul. We need not form theories about the number of heavens because of the fact that he speaks of the third heaven. He simply means that his spirit rose to an unsurpassable ecstasy in its nearness to God.

One lovely thing we may note, for it will help a little. The word Paradise comes from a Persian word which means a walled-garden. When a Persian king wished to confer a very special honour on someone specially dear to him, he made him a companion of the garden and gave him the right to walk in the royal gardens with him in intimate companionship. In this experience, as never before and never again, Paul had been the companion of God.

After the glory came the pain. The King James Version and the Revised Standard Versions speak of the thorn in the flesh. The word (skolops, GSN4647) can mean thorn but more likely it means stake. Sometimes criminals were impaled upon a sharp stake. It was a stake like that that Paul felt was twisting in his body. What was it? Many answers have been given. First we look at those which great men have held but which, in face of the evidence, we must discard.

(i) The thorn has been taken to mean spiritual temptations; the temptation to doubt and to shirk the duties of the apostolic life, and the sting of conscience when temptation conquered. That was Calvin's view.

(ii) It has been taken to mean the opposition and persecution which he had to face, the constant battle with those who tried to undo his work. That was Luther's view.

(iii) It has been taken to mean carnal temptations. When the monks and the hermits shut themselves up in their monasteries and their cells they found that the last instinct that could be tamed was that of sex. They wished to eliminate it but it haunted them. They held that Paul was like that; and this is the common Roman Catholic view to this day.

None of these solutions can be right, for three reasons. (a) The very word "stake" indicates an almost savage pain. (b) The whole picture before us is one of physical suffering. (c) Whatever the thorn was, it was intermittent, for, although it sometimes prostrated Paul, it never kept him wholly from his work. So then let us look at the other suggestions.

(iv) It has been suggested that the thorn was Paul's physical appearance. "His bodily presence is weak" (2Cor.10:10). It has been suggested that he suffered from some disfigurement which made him ugly and hindered his work. But that does not account for the sheer pain that must have been there.

(v) One of the commonest solutions is epilepsy. It is painful and recurrent, and between attacks the sufferer can go about his business. It produced visions and trances such as Paul experienced. It can be repellent; in the ancient world it was attributed to demons. In the ancient world when people saw an epileptic they spat to ward off the evil demon. In Gal.4:14 Paul says that when the Galatians saw his infirmity they did not reject him. The Greek word literally means you did not spit at me. But this theory has consequences which are hard to accept. It would mean that Paul's visions were epileptic trances, and it is hard to believe that the visions which changed the world were due to epileptic attacks.

(vi) The oldest of all theories is that Paul suffered from severe and prostrating headaches. Both Tertullian and Jerome believed that.

(vii) That may well lead us to the truth, for still another theory is that Paul suffered from eye trouble and this would explain the headaches. After the glory on the Damascus Road passed, he was blind (Ac.9:9). It may be that his eyes never recovered again. Paul said of the Galatians that they would have plucked out their eyes and would have given them to him (Gal.4:15). At the end of Galatians he writes, "See in what large letters I am writing to you" (Gal.6:11), as if he was describing the great sprawling characters of a man who could hardly see.

(viii) By far the most likely thing is that Paul suffered from chronically recurrent attacks of a certain virulent malarial fever which haunted the coasts of the eastern Mediterranean. The natives of the country, when they wished to harm an enemy, prayed to their gods that he should be "burnt up" with this fever. One who has suffered from it describes the headache that accompanies it as being like "a red-hot bar thrust through the forehead." Another speaks of "the grinding, boring pain in one temple, like the dentist's drill--the phantom wedge driven in between the jaws," and says that when the thing became acute it "reached the extreme point of human endurance." That in truth deserves the description of a thorn in the flesh, and even of a stake in the flesh. The man who endured so many other sufferings had this agony to contend with all the time.

Paul prayed that it might be taken from him, but God answered that prayer as he answers so many prayers--he did not take the thing away but gave Paul strength to bear it. That is how God works. He does not spare us things, but makes us able to conquer them.

To Paul came the promise and the reality of the all-sufficient grace. Now let us see from his life some few of the things for which that grace was sufficient.

(i) It was sufficient for physical weariness. It made him able to go on. John Wesley preached 42,000 sermons. He averaged 4,500 miles a year. He rode 60 to 70 miles a day and preached three sermons a day on an average. When he was 83 he wrote in his diary, "I am a wonder to myself. I am never tired, either with preaching, writing, or travelling." That was the work of the all-sufficient grace.

(ii) It was sufficient for physical pain. It made him able to bear the cruel stake. Once a man went to visit a girl who was in bed dying of an incurable and a most painful disease. He took with him a little book of cheer for those in trouble, a sunny book, a happy book, a laughing book. "Thank you very much," she said, "but I know this book." "Have you read it already?" asked the visitor. The girl answered, "I wrote it." That was the work of the all-sufficient grace.

(iii) It was sufficient for opposition. All his life Paul was up against it and all his life he never gave in. No amount of opposition could break him or make him turn back. That was the work of the all-sufficient grace.

(iv) It made him able, as all this letter shows, to face slander. There is nothing so hard to face as misinterpretation and cruel misjudgment. Once a man flung a pail of water over Archelaus the Macedonian. He said nothing at all. And when a friend asked him how he could bear it so serenely, he said, "He threw the water not on me, but on the man he thought I was." The all-sufficient grace made Paul care not what men thought him to be but what God knew him to be.

It is the glory of the gospel that in our weakness we may find this wondrous grace, for always man's extremity is God's opportunity..

GREY HOME BIBLE COMMENTARY:

Chapter 12. Here we come to "visions and revelations" vouchsafed to him. In these there could be no selfcommendation, but only that of a man in Christ lifted out of his own individuality, and thought worthy of such grace on account of being in Christ. His only object in boasting of such an one was to bear witness to the supernatural life he was living and that such glorious things had been granted him. In behalf of himself he would boast only in his infirmities (vv. 1-6). Lange. Verses 7-10 are self-explanatory except as to the nature of the "thorn in the flesh." It has been spoken of as "chronic ophthalmia, inducing bodily weakness and a repulsive appearance" (Galatians 4:15), but no one knows what it was. The Corinthians should not have made it necessary for him thus to speak of himself; they should have spoken on his behalf (v. 11), for the signs of an apostle were wrought by him among them

HENRY’S CONCISE COMMENTARY:

Citation: - SECOND CORINTHIANS 12

Synopsis: - The apostle's revelations. (1-6)
Which were improved to his spiritual advantage. (7-10)

Text: - Ver. 7-10 The apostle gives an account of the method God took to keep him humble, and to prevent his being lifted up above measure, on account of the visions and revelations he had. We are not told what this thorn in the flesh was, whether some great trouble, or some great temptation. But God often brings this good out of evil, that the reproaches of our enemies help to hide pride from us. If God loves us, he will keep us from being exalted above measure; and spiritual burdens are ordered to cure spiritual pride. This thorn in the flesh is said to be a messenger of Satan which he sent for evil; but God designed it, and overruled it for good. Prayer is a salve for every sore, a remedy for every malady; and when we are afflicted with thorns in the flesh, we should give ourselves to prayer. If an answer be not given to the first prayer, nor to the second, we are to continue praying. Troubles are sent to teach us to pray; and are continued, to teach us to continue instantin prayer. Though God accepts the prayer of faith, yet he does not always give what is asked for: as he sometimes grants in wrath, so he sometimes denies in love. When God does not take away our troubles and temptations, yet, if he gives grace enough for us, we have no reason to complain. Grace signifies the good-will of God towards us, and that is enough to enlighten and enliven us, sufficient to strengthen and comfort in all afflictions and distresses. His strength is made perfect in our weakness. Thus his grace is manifested and magnified. When we are weak in ourselves, then we are strong in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ; when we feel that we are weak in ourselves, then we go to Christ, receive strength from him, and enjoy most the supplies of Divine strength and grace.

JAMIESON,FAUSSETT,BROWN COMMENTARY:

. exalted above measure--Greek, "overmuch uplifted." How dangerous must self-exaltation be, when even the apostle required so much restraint! [BENGEL].
abundance--Greek, "the excess"; exceeding greatness.
given . . . me--namely, by God (Job 5:6; Php 1:29).
thorn in the flesh-- (Nu 33:55; Eze 28:24). ALFORD thinks it to be the same bodily affliction as in Ga 4:13, 14. It certainly was something personal, affecting him individually, and not as an apostle: causing at once acute pain (as "thorn" implies) and shame ("buffet": as slaves are buffeted, 1Pe 2:20).
messenger of Satan--who is permitted by God to afflict His saints, as Job (Job 2:7; Lu 13:16).
to buffet me--In Greek, present: to buffet me even now continuously. After experiencing the state of the blissful angels, he is now exposed to the influence of an evil angel. The chastisement from hell follows soon upon the revelation from heaven. As his sight and hearing had been ravished with heavenly "revelations," so his touch is pained with the "thorn in the flesh."

8. For--"concerning this thing."
thrice--To his first and second prayer no answer came. To his third the answer came, which satisfied his faith and led him to bow his will to God's will. So Paul's master, Jesus, thrice prayed on the Mount of Olives, in resignation to the Father's will. The thorn seems (from 2Co 12:9, and Greek, 2Co 12:7, "that he may buffet me") to have continued with Paul when he wrote, lest still he should be "overmuch lifted up."
the Lord--Christ. Escape from the cross is not to be sought even indirectly from Satan (Lu 4:7). "Satan is not to be asked to spare us" [BENGEL].



9. said--literally, "He hath said," implying that His answer is enough [ALFORD].
is sufficient--The trial must endure, but the grace shall also endure and never fail thee [ALFORD], (De 33:25). The Lord puts the words into Paul's mouth, that following them up he might say, "O Lord, Thy grace is sufficient for me" [BENGEL].
my strength--Greek, "power."
is made perfect--has its most perfect manifestation.
in weakness--Do not ask for sensible strength, FOR My power is perfected in man's "strengthlessness" (so the Greek). The "for" implies, thy "strengthlessness" (the same Greek as is translated "weakness"; and in 2Co 12:10, "infirmities") is the very element in which My "power" (which moves coincident with "My grace") exhibits itself more perfectly. So that Paul instead of desiring the infirmity to "depart," "rather" henceforth "glories in infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest (Greek, 'tabernacle upon,' cover my infirmity all over as with a tabernacle; compare Greek, Joh 1:12) upon" him. This effect of Christ's assurance on him appears, 2Co 4:7; 1Co 2:3, 4; compare 1Pe 4:14. The "My" is omitted in some of the oldest manuscripts; the sense is the same, "power" (referring to God's power) standing absolutely, in contrast to "weakness" (put absolutely, for man's weakness). Paul often repeats the word "weakness" or "infirmity" (the eleventh, twelfth, and thirteenth chapters) as being Christ's own word. The Lord has more need of our weakness than of our strength: our strength is often His rival; our weakness, His servant, drawing on His resources, and showing forth His glory. Man's extremity is God's opportunity; man's security is Satan's opportunity. God's way is not to take His children out of trial, but to give them strength to bear up against it (Ps 88:7; Joh 17:15).

10. take pleasure in--too strongly. Rather as the Greek, "I am well contented in."
infirmities--the genus. Two pairs of species follow, partly coming from "Satan's messenger," partly from men.
reproaches--"insults."
when--in all the cases just specified.
then--then especially.
strong--"powerful" in "the power of Christ" (2Co 12:9; 2Co 13:4; Heb 11:34).

WILLIAM’S END TESTAMENT NOTES:

#Williams' endnotes to 2 Cor. 7

implied

literally, "my flesh"

Greek, "had"

literally, "your zeal for me"

Greek, "according to God"

 implied

a subjective genitive

literally, "how great your earnestness"

literally, "your zeal for me"

 implied

Greek, "became in truth"

#Williams' endnotes to 2 Cor. 8

 Greek, "overflow"

literally, "and their deep poverty"

to be supplied from the context

implied

implied

implied

Greek, "abounding, overflowing"

implied

a subjective genitive

in the Greek preposition "pro"

implied

literally, "become for"

implied

Exo. 16:18

implied

in the article and the context

implied

implied

implied

#Williams' endnotes to 2 Cor. 9

 implied

 implied

literally, "blessing", emphasizing the motive of love

Greek, "grasping for more"; here money gripped and grudgingly given

literally, "for blessing"

Greek, "every good work"

Ps. 112:9

literally, "priestly", so "official (sacred) service"

 implied

 implied

#Williams' endnotes to 2 Cor. 10

 their actual charge against him

literally, "according to the flesh", man's lower nature

in the Greek preposition "kata"

Greek, "fleshly"

which is experimental knowledge

implied

implied

so Abbott-Smith's Greek Lexicon

literally, "is weak and his speech is", etc.

Greek, "boast within the limits of the sphere", etc.

literally, "overreach myself"

literally, "that I may be enlarged so as to run over"

Jer. 9:24


Posted by: JeriRose12

Benny Hinn had a heart murmer for 25 years (now healed, rather than just controlled by diet).

Katherine Khulman (sp?) died of cancer.

Smith Wigglesworth would go home after his healing meetings and roll around on the floor with painful gall stones.

Don Gosset's wife died of (I think) cancer. (He lives in Whatcom County, in my state of Washington) and prays for people to be healed in all his meetings. After his wife died he told the devil, "I am going to pray for healings double!"

Dottie Rambo (who writes such beautiful songs as "In the Valley He Restoreth My Soul," "We Shall Behold Him," "Tears Will Never Stain the Streets of That City," and "The Longer I Serve Him the Sweeter He Grows" [I think she has written about 2000 Christian songs.]), has a messed up back from an operation. She was in so much pain after it first happened, that she cried at least 23 hours out of a day. She has been prayed for by everybody, and though she hasn't been healed, she has strong faith. The joy of the Lord is so strong on her....

What about the man featured on the "God Will Make a Way" TV special, who saved a lot of lives in the Twin Towers incident, but he, himself, died? His wife said he was a loving family man and all he cared about was his family. He was affectionate, loving to their daughter....evrything a Christian husband/father should be. Yet, he died. Why? As my niece said, maybe because HE was ready. Some of these wierd husbands hang around longer, because God is dealing with them--giving them a chance to repent, to get right with him, so they are READY for heaven.

Are you going to say an innocent, young child died because they lacked knowledge? Come on. We live in a real world. Things happen. James, the brother of Jesus, who was the first leader of the church, died young. So, what can we conclude?

Personally, I am not afraid to die. I just feel like I still have ministry to do here on earth. So when I think happy thoughts of going to heaven to be with Jesus (and getting out of the trials and struggles here on earth), I say "But I know I can't go there now; I have things to do here on earth."

The only disciple who lived to old age was John. The rest were crucified in some manner for their fatih.

Jesus died at age 33. Is a servant better than his Master or a student better than his Teacher? I think not!!!

~JeriRose~


Posted by: JeriRose12

For a Christian there is no death!!! We simply go to heaven!!! So this whole arguement is useless. We are wasting our time here!!! Dath where is your victory? Grave where is your sting? In other words, when my body dies, no vicotory is won against me! When I am put in the grave there is no sting! The devil wants us to fear death. I don't fear death!!! I want to be with Jesus; how awesome to look Him in the face. I hate the veil through which I try to see Him now.

Precious in the sight of the LORD Is the death of His saints. (Psalm 116:15)

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8) AMEN!!!

21For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23For[3] I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, 26that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again. (Philippians 1:21-26)

47Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[7] has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." (John 6:47-51)

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. (John 11:25)

And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (Johnn 11:26)

35But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'[7] 38For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him." (Luke 20:35-38)

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (John 5:24)

Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death." (John 8:51)

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."[15:54 Isaiah 25:8] (1 Corinthians 15:54)

O Death, where is your sting?[15:55 Hosea 13:14] O Hades, where is your victory?"[ NU-Text reads [O Death, where is your victory? O Death, where is your sting?] (1 Corinthians 15:55

but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through. (2 Timothy 1:10)

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. (1 John 3:14)

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. (Revelation 2:10)

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Revelation 20:14)

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."' (Revelation 2:20)

We should not fear death. Paul called it being "absent from the body." That doesn't sound like death to me. Paul said we would be "present with the Lord." I am present with the Lord now. Then, I will just slip through the veil, and I will see Jesus face to face. I can bearly wait!!! But I will wait, because I know I have a purpose on the earth for now.

I think we'd better quit this long dispute and get back to praying:

But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. (Titus 3:9)

~JeriRose~


Posted by: JeriRose12

rockrz, you spoke of the three Hebrew children. Know what they said? "Our God is well able to deliver us. But if he does not...." (we still will not bow down and worship the idol). They knew they stood every chance of dying!!!

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
(Revelation 12:11)

Don't forget this part of the "Hall of faith":

36Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted,[6] were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented-- 38of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth. (Hebrews 11:36-38)

The world was not WORTHY of these people!!! God did not call them "carnal" for enduring hardship and death.

It seems like you are off on an extreme. There is no conclusive teaching that we should never suffer or die young. It sounded as though you were doubting Stephen was even a Christian. Then why does the Bible say they picked seven men full of the Holy Spirit and Stephen was one of them? Why did he give such a strong defense for the faith, as he died? You are way out of balance here and ignoring a huge amount of the teachings of the Bible (i.e. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer for I have overcome the world.) The Bible is full of scriptures on faithful servants of God suffering. I just don't get where you are coming from.

If my body phsically dies, and the flesh and bones are laid in the grave, I still really don't die. I just move on to glory. So what's the big deal if I go young or old? Right now, I am spending time with Jesus; in heaven, I will do the same. Wouldn't I rather see him face to face then through a veil? Is staying on the earth until old age such a great deal? I would like to be "present with the Lord." But I will have to be present with Him as best I can on the earth for now.

I guess I didn't stick to my own advice up above, so I had better end this post and go pray for some people.

~JeriRose~


Posted by: JanieMae

Read Jesse Duplantis' book or order this CD.

Close Encounters of the God Kind. Jesus promises so set up free of sin and death!!!

http://www.jdm*****/

This is a real blessing to read or hear!


Posted by: Rockrz

Quote:
We live in a real world. Things happen

No, that's where you're wrong. Things don't just "happen" for no reason.

Over in the book of Proverbs, the Lord said "the curse causeless cannot come" (Proverbs 26:2) God's Word also teaches that He is not mocked...whatsoever a man sows, that will he also reap.

You know not what is really in the hearts of men. Only they and God do. Many great Christians in ministry have died early because they didn't apply the same annointing and teachings that they ministered to the people, to themselves. It's evident that we have to live according to the New Covenant for ourselves, personally.

Many ministers get the mistaken idea that God is going to take care of them just because they are ministering to the people, and they don't have to do much where their personal lives are concerned. This is a deception that is designed to kill ministers of the Gospel early, and quite a few of them fall into this line of thinking due to pride (some because of ignorance of the Word).

It is a curse for satan to force you out of your body, after God has promised us long life with satisfaction (see Psalm 91, and fast & pray for a few days while you study that entire chapter)

Psalm 103:4 says that God has redeemed our life from destruction. Don't you think it's time that we put the last enemy of the Body of Christ under foot? In doing so, this is going to cover physical death!

In other words, the devil can't kill me until my life is full and I've accomplished what God sent me here to do...and even then, I will decide when I'm satisfied and ready to go home! And don't give me this satanic lie that "God takes people", because that would be murder and would make God a liar because He's already promised that we could have long life. (actually, it's at least 120 years...so we have a vision to attain to...see Genesis 6:3 and Psalm 91:16 )

2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel
Ever REALLY meditate on this, and let it REALLY sink in? You ought to listen to what the Spirit of the Lord is saying to the Church, like the Apostle John did. They couldn't kill him.

Ever study his life and find out what was different about him in comparison to other Apostles? Remember, the wisdom of God is hidden FOR the righteous....you're going to have to dig to get to the really good stuff.

I'm talking about stuff that the devil is deathly afraid of you finding out...about LIFE (the spiritual force of life, which is the very Glory of God that's been made available to us to walk in NOW)

Absolute devine protection IS available for us in these last days...I don't care who failed to embrace it before us. I'll never put these people's rightousness up against the rightousness of God's.

The shield of faith quenches EVERY firey dart of the wicked. Some of these famous folks that are mentioned above have obviously missed it in some areas of their lives, because I KNOW God's Word didn't miss it.

They were in error where their own health was concerned....not God!
We don't we learn from their mistakes, and grow to higher heights than they did?

OR, we could keep them up on a pedistal where they don't belong. Sure, we respect God's calling on people, but we also have to realize that they are still fallible people that have missed it in certain areas of their lives.


Posted by: jedijeb

"In other words, the devil can't kill me until my life is full and I've accomplished what God sent me here to do...and even then, I will decide when I'm satisfied and ready to go home! And don't give me this satanic lie that "God takes people", because that would be murder and would make God a liar because He's already promised that we could have long life. (actually, it's at least 120 years...so we have a vision to attain to...see Genesis 6:3 and Psalm 91:16 )"

I do differ with you here in that you decide when you are ready to go home. It says that it is appointed to man once to die then the judgment. God has appointed your time, you don't decide it. If all this is true then why do babies die? They have no sin held against them till they are of an accountable age. Also if God taking people makes him a murderer then I guess He never ordered the destruction of an entire nation or was the part where He ordered Saul to kill every person not true. God is the giver of life and can take it without it being murder, we do not have the ability or right to give life or take it that is why it is murder for us to do so without God's permission. Does God give us permission to take life, Yes, in war and when defending the innocent. David killed many men in battle and was considered a man after God's own heart, but when he had Uriah killed He was considered a murderer.

You say that God never makes anyone sick that only Satan can make someone sick or otherwise disabled, what then is this verse discribing:

Joh 9:1 And as he passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth.
Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Rabbi, who sinned, this man, or his parents, that he should be born blind?
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither did this man sin, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Here God allowed this man to be born blind that at His appointed time His glory would be shown in the man's healing.


Posted by: cgirl

Thanks JanieMae. I like Jesse Duplantis he's funny. His wife is a good speaker too. I remember she said the day she met Jesse, that was the day they both fell in love with him *lol*. I haven't seen his programs lately I ought to look it up.


Posted by: Rockrz

Quote:
I do differ with you here in that you decide when you are ready to go home. It says that it is appointed to man once to die then the judgment


Yes, it says it is appointed unto man to die ONCE!
It DID NOT say it was appointed unto man WHEN he was going to die.

This is another classic example of mis-information that has been dished out by the forces of darkness to cause people to mis-interpret what God said in His Word.

And, the situation you spoke about with Jesus and that blind guy...did it say that GOD caused this situation to come upon this man? NO, it did not.

God has taken action against the devil and has destroyed his authority and power against mankind. Man's problem is he's still living under the law of sin & death, and most men have rejected the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus!

If mankind (especially Christians) could ever get a hold of what is being offered to man in Romans, chapter 8, this would be a different world right now!

It's a shame that people don't take time to fast and prayerfully read the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit to interpret God's Word from GOD's point of view, instead of from man's carnal worldview.

God wants us the think, act, look, speak, and live just like He does...WHILE WE'RE STILL HERE ON THIS EARTH

There are several scriptures in the New Testament that says exactly this! I dare say not many on this board know which ones they are.

Anybody got any idea where these can be found???


Posted by: JeriRose12

36Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted,[6] were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented-- 38of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth. (Hebrews 11:36-38)

I want your answer to this portion of scripture. The world was not worthy of them. It WAS God who removed them from the earth; He wanted them with Him. This scipture in no way condemns them for not believing they should live to be 120.

On the American diet NO-ONE wil live to be 120 !!!

What are you trying to say about 2 Timothy 1:10? That we will NEVER die? That's what the Bible says. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord!!! I have no intention of "dying." My fleshly body might get struck by a car or something and my flesh and bones be laid in a grave. But my spirit is going to be in heaven with Jesus.

Why does it matter how long I hang around down here on the earth? I either live here, or I go to heaven and live. I just keep living. There IS no death for a Christian!!!!!!! Do you think we just sit around in heaven playing harps and praising God? No way!!! I believe I will continue my earthly ministry in heaven. What about this cloud of witnesses? I believe in heaven I will still be interceding for people; I believe I will still be praying prayers that change the situation on the earth. If I go, I'm ready. I pray some people who aren't ready will stick around so they can get saved.

For a Christian THERE IS NO DEATH. So why would you indicate I am calling God a murdarer? When one of God's children's body's dies, they are instantly in heaven with Jesus. That is not death!!! That is promotion!!! That is glory!!!

You are using two speak. You can not say there is no death, then say we are calling God a murdarer because we are saying people might die young. Whether they die young or old, couldn't we say God took them? Death is the only way we can get to heaven (until the rapture), and God has promised that to all His people. What is your plan? The "Enoch walked with God and was not" idea? You make it sound like we should live on forever in these eartly bodies. We are promised new bodies!!! How can we get these new bodies if our old body never dies??? This all just isn't making sense!!! At what point, when this eartly body dies, is it no longer are lack of faith that caused us to die?

Do you realize when Hezikiah begged God to live--after God said it was his time to go--what happened? Hezikiah bore a son in that time that was EVIL, EVIL, EVIL. We are not supposed to tell God what we want; He is supposed to tell us what He wants; and we are supposed to bring ourselves into line with His will.

Contrary to what you say;

10The days of our lives are seventy years;
And if by reason of strength they are eighty years,
Yet their boast is only labor and sorrow;
For it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
11Who knows the power of Your anger?
For as the fear of You, so is Your wrath.
12So teach us to number our days,
That we may gain a heart of wisdom.

13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will[7] go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit"; 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

It sounds like you are trying awfully hard to hang onto this life down here. And wouldn't you rather be in God's presence? It says our life is a vapor. Don't you know we're dust, created from the dust of the ground? We are nothing. Why are you so arrogant as to say you can choose your own time of death??? This is not biblical. Well, I guess you can...Hezikiah changed God's mind. But where was his humility??? An evil king was born out of his loins in those fifteen years God added to his life, and that king caused Isreal to sin greatly. Don't you think God knows better than us???

I AM NOT AFRAID TO DIE, SO WHY AM I GOING TO BEG GOD TO KEEP ME HERE YEARS AND YEARS??? HE CAN'T RAISE UP SOMEONE TO TAKE MY PLACE (DO MY MINISTRY?) WHEN I GO???????

When Jesus died--YOUNG, I might add--he left the ministry to 12 disciples and the other 110 who were in the upper room. Unless a kenral of wheat falls into the ground and dies....

It is not WHEN we go, it is the quality of the life we live. We have to live every minute to the full for God. That's what counts.

Up above I said we should avoid foolish disputes (Titus 3:9)....So why am I posting all this??? Don't know for sure . Something just doesn't ring true about all this. You need to respond directly to what the scriptures I posted mean.

~JeriRose~

P.S.: Meantime, are you out on the board posting prayers for anyone to live forever, never die, whatever it is your saying here? A young couple is addicted to drugs, a young man, too....Pray they don't have to die. I am going now, to pray for some folks.


Posted by: JeriRose12

Don't forget our friend, Job. Or isn't he in your Bible? Oh, I see, he was one of thes saints who missed it. When he said, "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord," he was sinning big time!!! Then, why did God brag on him and tell the devil he was perfect???

What you seem to be saying is, no matter how many years I live on earth, be it 20 or 120, it is still the devil who "kills" me. Hunh? What abuot "Precious in His sight is the death of His saints"? How can the devil kill me? He has NO POWER over me!!! Jesus is my Lord!!! I can not die--and I definitely can not be killed!!! Like I said, it's like walking into another room. I'm on earth, maybe in a room of a house, then I'm in heaven, in the throne room. Actually, if I "dwell in the secret place of the Most High" (meaning I continually am in God's throne room), then I just go from one throne room to the next. To stand face to face with Jesus--how awesome that will be!!! So how can we even call it death? The Bible says whosoever believes in him has everlasting life....From the minute I believed I received eternal life!!! Before that, I walked under eternal condemnation (I would have left separation from God on earth for separation from God in hell). Now, I will simply walk into heaven, holding Jesus hand, just as I do now.

You are saying we are wrong--but I don't even believe death is the correct word to use for us. We have LIFE. Jesus is life!!! You plan to live to a ripe old age, then let Satan "kill" you!!! That sounds ludicrus!!! Satan loses when he "kills" a saint!!! A saint goes straight to heaven to be with God, and the devil has lost him for good. The devil would rather we hang around on earth for years, so he can cause us to fall away from God. It says we will be born up so we won't dash our foot against a stone (Psalm 91)!!! So, you are wrong to say the devil will "kill" you after you've lived a rich, full life and accomplished a lot. Either the Word is true, or it isn't. You will not be harmed by the devil!!! Your fleshly body will die and rot in the ground, but YOU will be in heaven with the Lord!!! The angels will truly bear you up to heaven.

I just don't know how to explain it. The thought of going to heaven is so AWESOME--who needs the life on earth? If I am saved and in love with Jesus, death is no problem to me. I will only get to see my precious Saviour. What could be more beautiful??????? Why do I spend so much time praying for the anointing and to be in the glory, if I don't really want it? And that's what I will have in heaven. I will stand in the light of God's own presence and....WOW!!! It will be overwhelming....PRAISE THE LORD!!! I can hardly wait!!!

If I go soon....don't mourn for me. And don't say I "missed" it. Rejoice for me!!! You think I'll be in heaven beating myself up because I didn't have the faith to live to 120? No way!!! I'll be standing by Jesus throne in utter rapture!!! I can not even imagine it....It totally staggers the mind to think of looking into his beautiful face....My heart skipped a beat thinking of it. We live for eternity, so who cares if I spend another 79 years on earth (I'm 41) or if I go into heaven earlier than my 120 years and start my heaven side part of eternity a little sooner?

And on and on I could go. But I've got to go.

~JeriRose~


Posted by: jedijeb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockrz
If mankind (especially Christians) could ever get a hold of what is being offered to man in Romans, chapter 8, this would be a different world right now!


Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:
Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward.

I still have trouble understanding your point of view when I get to this part of Romans Chapter 8. What you say sounds wonderful, but I still run into scripture which contradicts it. I use the Bible as a whole when searching out the meaning of the scripture. As in this verse:
2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

When I search it out with the Holy Spirit I am let to believe that immortality here is of the spirit not the flesh, especially since we are appointed once to die. If death in the flesh has been abolished then why are we still appointed once to die?

As Jeri mentioned above about Job that brings to mind that Satan was whining to God about Job being so devout only because Satan couldn't touch him. Well to prove that Job's faith was as strong as it seemed, God allowed Satan to have his way with Job. It was not Job's lack of faith which brought Satan's touch upon him, on the contrary it was just the opposite. God told Satan that he could do anything he wanted to do to Job except take his life. God knew that Job's faith would endure and in the end rewarded him greatly for it, but not before some very hard trials. Are we to say that God is evil for allowing this to happen to someone so faithful, Heaven forbid NO!! God's ways are not our ways. He owns all life, and as the owner has all rights to it.

Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither did this man sin, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

As for the man born blind, if God didn't have him born blind then who did? If it was Satan then why since it happened for the glory of God. Or did it just happen?

Another question is why did Lazarus die? Jesus knew Lazarus was sick, and He had the power to heal him without even being in his presence. Jesus allowed Lazarus to die and then tarried two more days before coming to him. This happened not because Jesus couldn't heal him or couldn't be with him, but that His glory and power could be manifested to many who would witness Lazarus' resurrection. Lazarus didn't die because of lack of faith either, there was faith there that Jesus' could heal him, and even enough faith that Jesus could raise him from the dead.


Posted by: Rockrz

OK...let the devil force you out of your body, and to heck with all the things the Lord wants you to accomplish while on this earth.

In your case, I guess God will just have to find someone else to do the things He has for you to do.

If you have no problem with being selfish, then I guess we have to allow that from you. But, don't count on it from me....I've got work to do (the good works I've been ordained to do by God)

You may want to invest in a nice life insurance policy. At least your family will have opportunity to pay some bills and put you in the ground.

And, no. God is not forcing people out of their bodies through any form of destruction (sickness, disease, car wrecks, etc)

Jesus said the devil comes to kill, steal, and destroy.
Reckon He knows what He's talking about?

You have been given the right to choose to listen to God (who wants you to ALWAYS triumph in Christ Jesus), or listen to the wisdom of mankind (which is earthly, sensual, and devilish)

The choice is yours!


Posted by: Samuk

I can see what your all saying.

I agree that Satan only comes to steal, kill and destroy.

I also agree that sometimes, God loves a person so much He needs them with Him and so you can say they "died early" but really they went to a better place because God wanted them more than may be we wanted them!

I don't need scripture to back me up on this. I am a Christian for the relationship and love of Christ, not to be political or to join some kind of debating society.

Freddy, I speak to your fears, commanding them to leave you in the name of Jesus of Nazareth. Can you remember what God has laid up for those who fear Him?
For God has not given us the Spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. God is strongly saying to me right now that He has plans for your life beyond what your right now capable of imagining. God's will for you is limitless. Your mind is clearly limited right now. Rise up though and start claiming your inheritance! Your a choild of the Almighty God, you don't need politicians confusing you with endless renditions from the scriptures. There is more to life than our interpretations of God's written Word I'm sure. Thanks be to God. Life is so rich - Jesus is rich. Trust in Him and cast all your burdens on Him. He never fails. He will never leave you nor forsake you.

Amen Sam


Posted by: jedijeb

I plan on being here as long as God has something for me to do, I just don't believe that I will never have to suffer for Him. When God decides I have accomplished all He wants me to do then I will die in whatever manner He wants me to, be it quietly in my sleep or violently as a martyr, either is fine with me.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There will be those whom God will ask to give their lives for His kingdom and if that is what He asks of me then I will give it, if God allows me to live to 120 then I will do it for His glory. God will grant me the strength to face whatever will come my way. I will take joy in whatever circumstances come my way, be they wonderful happy times or hard trials, I joy in the Lord during both for He is my Savior and my strength. Praise be to God for whatever comes my way, because it is only temporary what happens in the flesh, my spirit will live forever with Him.


Posted by: JeriRose12

As you see, Federik, if you'e reading my posts, you have no reason to fear death. Sorry we disputed so long. But I truly don't fear death--at 20 or 120.

~JeriRose~


Posted by: quickdraw

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeriRose12
As you see, Federik, if you'e reading my posts, you have no reason to fear death. Sorry we disputed so long. But I truly don't fear death--at 20 or 120.

~JeriRose~


I wonder, is it the after death event, or the process of dying that many people fear! I find I have to pray for the courage to go thru whatever process God allows to take me Home! I don't fear anything, once I have left my body permanently, but I often wonder if I could have the courage so many people have displayed during the process of horrific torture, persecution, cancer etc. My only answer has been to pray for the courage to die well, to be able to continue to be a good witness to MY LORD AND SAVIOUR thruout whatever process God allows to take me!

Forever His,
Sharon


Posted by: jesusisrisen

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedijeb
You are not alone Frederik, while I don't fear death as to it being the end of my life, I do have a fear of the act of physically dying. For me it is like so many things I havn't done before, I fear what I haven't experienced. I was terrified the first time I rode a bicycle without the training wheels the first time, but once I did it and knew I wouldnt get hurt it was a wonderful experience. I imagine death will be like that, when it first comes it will be scarey, but once I see the other side, I will be so happy it wont matter any more.


I agree with jedijeb althouh i am not afied of dying I fear what will happen after I don't fear death as much as i did when i was younger because I have been in haspitals alot during my life as a pasent and there were time i welcomed death because I was in so much pain. I can't wait to die to be able to see jesus and god there is nothing to be afead of it will be peacefull when the end comes.