This is a question about the "Judge not that you be not judged" and the "by their fruits you shall know them" passages. What is the point at which we say a "brother" or "sister" isn't showing the right fruit, therefore we conclude they are not really saved or living in a back slidden state? And what's the point at which we say, "Okay, I believe they are saved and they have sinned, but I am not to judge. I am to restore them in meekness. And I am to say 'Before their own Master they stand or fall.' " And then, I remember a scripture that says if we turn a brother back from his sin, we have done a great thing (James, bad paraphrase of it). There is also the passage in Matthew 18 where if we go to a brother or sister with their sin and they won't listen to us, we are to bring in two or three witnesses and if they won't listen to them, take it to the church. Then, if they still won't listen, disfellowship them (or in Corinthians turn them over to Satan, so they will end up repenting). There was a day when people who sinned (I am espcially thinking those in ministry and well known) would step down and get aside to humble themselves and repent and then others could come along and restore them in meekness. Some today don't even want to admit they have sinned let alone step down or aside for a time of repentance and restoration. So. . .what then is my proper response to these situations when a brother or sister has sinned? I hear "Judge not" a lot. But we are also supposed to be those who discipline the sinners among us. . . .

How about one falsely accused? I do not believe everything I hear, because I have heard of some who were falsely accused just to discredit them. But should someone falsely accused step down until their name is cleared? Or is continuting in ministry okay if they know they didn't do it? They discredited A. A. Allen (they have proof of this). And to this day his family has been under the cloud of it. They discredited Kim Clement (or his wife -- saying she was taking drugs, when it was headache powder). Kim did ask to be taken off TBN durnign that time, because he didn't want to cause problems for TBN.

In my story I deal with these issues, and I really want to approach all of this Biblically. On one hand we are told not to judge, but on the other hand there is Biblical discipline that we are to administer. So. . . . any light you could shed on this through scripture would be most helpful. As I read back through my story, I saw that perhaps I didn't say it quite the way God really said it from the Bible.

(Well, a way to rephrase the one story passage just came to mind, so thank the Lord for helping clarify something already.)

~JeriRose~

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24 But let him who glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 9:24)

Hi sis-

Well, regardless of fruit that is bore, we are still not to judge anyone as a person, but only the "root" - (influence), of the "tree"- (person), for the "fruit" that is bore.

There is no line where we can cross over to judge another person, there is only the "fruit" we witness that can be judged according to God's Word, and the "root" that influenced the person to produce that fruit.

To claim out loud or to question in our minds if someone is saved or not by "fruit" bore is sinning against God. In the "Sermon on the Mount", Jesus clearly shows how sin starts in our lingering thoughts before it is manifested physically.

In my years of researching Early Church documentations, I'd come across probably 4 Ministers that God, by the Holy Spirit would come down upon them and those around them when preaching the Word, it shocked those witnesses.

Yet, each of those were involved with outright sins against God and everyone knew it about them , as for one, was an alcoholic, a terrible drunk when not at the Pulpit. So, would it have been right to question thier Salvation on that daily evidence away from the Pulpit? No.

Nope, you hit it on the head with that paraphrase. Rather than condemnation, offering to help with restoration is what God seeks of us.

God is the ultimate Judge over people and each will have thier moment of explaining thier life before Him. Then treasures will be gained or lost as according to our works. Yet God will hold a greater responcibility for Ministers than laypeople, but that will be what He will decide for each one.

It won't be people who will turn a person over to Satan, but the power of Christ- I Cor. 5:4- "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5- to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ".

What Paul is saying is chastisement and prayer over the person. Why? "that the spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." Basically it would be telling the person, either change yoiur ways or be removed for good.

God speaks of dieing to the flesh and being reborn in the spirit. Thus, this example would be as a path to help this person once more, "die to the flesh", as Satan is the author of death, which is why that terminlogy is used here, but in the context of helping that person not be lost to God- "that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus".

The praying and chastisement would be for the breaking of this strong hold Satan has over them. thus its not condemnation, but chastisement and prayer for deliverance.

As for falsely accused, if are only going by second or third hand reports, pay no attention to them, for there is little Truth from that, unless from first hand witnesses. I keep them up in prayers, that if are truely of God, He will straiten things out and restore them to rightful positions He called them to.

I do know Kim Clements has stated in his beliefs in written form, a prophet of God don't have to be 100% accurate in prophecies. But, I don't judge him, instead I pray for God to bring Clements fully inline with Him- (God) if there are discrepancies or distortions in his teachings, prophecies or other, as God sees fit to turn back to Him.

I pray this helps-

God Bless!!

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Warrior of God

Thanks for the input. I was wondering what to do with a borther or sister who won't admit any wrong. . .well, you said pray for them, and that's what I have been doing. Just keep praying they will repent and get their lives right.

I just need clarity of all this, so I state it correctly (Biblically) in my story, without man's opinion creeping in.

In Corinthians they were told to put the one man out of fellowship who was doing incest. He was unrepentant. So that is a clear matter for the local church he attends to deal with. I went to a church that dealt with some people this way, and those people knew it was right. They would be in total agreement, in many cases, that this was correct to help them in coming to repentance of conintuing sin. These people had been confronted, according to the Matthew 18 instructions, and then, finally, it would be brought before the entire congregation. They would be disfellowshipped in the Biblical manner if unrepentant. Or they would stand before all of us and explain they had sinned but were sorry and were doing all they could to make it right.

This is how the church leadership should deal with sinning members, but sometimes the members need to deal with leadership who is sinning. . . .I guess the same principles would apply. We would take the sin to them and confront them with their need to repent. Or should this be left to whatever leadership they are accountable to (if any)? I have recently emailed some who I felt had spoken into my life and challagned them with their need to consider recent choices. I seriously feel they owe some sort of exlanation to those whom they have impacted. Is this a correct way of looking at it? Is is my place to do this? I felt God asked me to write to them.

I guess if these people are unrepentant and continuing in sin (and we know of it) we need not listen to them or "follow them" (It's "Follow me as I follow Christ," so we just need to realize they are no longer following Christ and not listen to what they are preaching/teaching.)

~JeriRose~

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24 But let him who glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 9:24)

Say, one other thought too tho Sis, and thats-

John the Baptist openly spoke the Truth of God to Herod of Herod's sin of adultry against God, for helping him to realize the need to turn from it.

John had declared, God would hold him- (John), responcible knowing the Truth, if had said nothing to Herod.

Thus, God expects us to clearly share a Truth of sin as such to others when God guides us to, yet not to push it, but once shared, its no longer your responcibility, but those who are sinning, now to decide what to do, having heard the Truth.

But, as Christ and the Apostles declared, to be done in love and compassion towards those doing the sinning. Its suggestive of sharing in the light of sin being done, but no condemnation shown towards those personally, doing it.

But yes, you approach them first yourself, then bring a witness, then two if still won't listen, then before the Church as a final step.

Yes, thiese steps should be taken for both members and leadership. Except as well, for Ministers, to be taken also before thier District office with Congregational backing for proof, as Paul showed by evidence of those writing him of infractions seen in thier Churches. (Pastors were over Churches, but Apostles were over those Pastors as well, were told as needed.)

No, same steps for Leadership. Take to them first, if won't listen, confront with another witness, if still won't, bring two witnesses. If still won't, all witnesses then should write up a report and speak with District Office about it, showing report with infractions etc on it.

Sis- God the Father has called all His Children to be Kings and Priests under Christ in the "Body". Therefore, you would be held responcible, if not said anything or brought this to light for thier edification in repenting and turning from sin.

The main thing tho, is not to get too prideful in going after too many expecting this, when we ourselves are also born in sin and equally falable. The balance comes where the stumbling can cause others of God's children to fall into sin and pulled away from God.

God has proven to me, to become the better example first myself, before trying to point my finger too quickly at others. Thus, while I may not speak out to all I see sinning, I also work just as hard if not harder at changing my own life of sin to try and be a better example first, and only point out situations as God guides me rather than on my own witnessing of others sin. I pray for God to guide me how to deal with that.

A true God guided Leader who has been thru this system and not repented and turned, will thus go before the church, admit thier wrong and step down, at least temporarily, while they get strait with God with that. thus, another Leader can step in to keep the church going, as God guides, for how the future leading of the church will go.

I've seen both Ministers and Ministries fully restored and tremendously Blessed later on after changing things, but have also seen both be done with permanently or Ministers brought to loesser levels of service as well. I neither think nor believe anything of them personally, good or bad, as its thier choice how they and God worked things out.

And I know from personal experience, there are some weaknesses of people, that are incredibly hard sins to break from and be delivered from. And have witnessed, blood, sweat and tears all shed by some who recieved deliverance, while others did not, a few died in the process of trying thru all that.

So, we need to be sure its God leading us to step in and say something. As we may not have to, for another having done so. It must be God assuring us its us He chooses to say something first. But be careful not to asume we cannot follow the rest of thier teachings if inline with God. Remember what Christ spoke of the religious Leaders of His time- "Do as they say, but not as they do".

Seek God for this decision and He will show you how to approach them.

God Bless!!

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Warrior of God

I have never actually approached any in leadership before in this manner. It was because they had spoken into my life, that I felt to approach them. I was not mad or unforgiving or any of that....I was wanting to see them come to healing and restoration. I am not sure how it came across, but that was my intent behind it. I felt really strong that I couldn't let it pass without comment to them. So, I just tried to share my heart. Now, I ended up on one of their email lists and I have no response in regards to the issues I contacted them on. So....I continue in prayer for them. I do not feel all the "mud slinging," fault finding, etc. out there on the web is helpful in the least. I feel we ALL need to be on our faces in repentance for the culture that we have allowed to creep into the church....including the mud slinging part of the culture. The Bible gives us no such instructions. I try to explain to certain "brothers" that their is no ministry called Fault Finding, Criticizing, Keeping A Record Of Wrongs, etc. Some ministires seem to spend the majority of their time critiquing and running down others in the body of Christ. But I agree about the Spirit led part. We need to be sure God is really telling us to talk to them.

~JeriRose~

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24 But let him who glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 9:24)

Well see, that urge you felt could not let pass to speak with them was the Holy Spirit. But, you can share in the meekest least threatening way at times and still will be taken as an attack against them. Some are just that way, as you can be as kind and gentle sometimes and they jump back, all over you about it. More than not, yiu must keep in mind to be seeking what spirit is influencing them, to be ready and not taken by supprise by unexpected responces.

I'm neither in the practice of confronting Leaderships. As one myself, I know I have faults too and thus do not judge them. But, there has been several times in all the years of Ministry, God has chosen to have me to confront some on particular sins being done.

You know, we had a system of Churches here once run by a Minister, who was tempted by Satan and started a pretty bad series of sins with some of the youth from each church.

When called in for help, we started a prayer Confrence with the Congregation for several weeks to God about the situation. It turned out, God had other plans. He had one of the other Church Congregations find out and then take the action needed, as they had the proper level people to do so.

All it appeared God had called us into the situation for, was to bring a group of God's Children together for prayer to God about this.

As such, we should never ever think we need to always speak out, but be lead by God wether to or not. And you had the right "Christ-like" attitude, a neutral one, that judged not and was forgiving.

Thats right, "mud slinging" is clearly not of God. I will admit tho, I did ask a couple Site Admin. whose sites criticized so many of God's Leaders, if we can trust any other Leaders, from seeing how they judged the ones they chose to bring to light. As such, what hidden sins they- (Admin.) had but didn't want others to know about. (Gave them something to think about for finger pointing).

Right we are not taught that, but to have a loving and forgiving spirit towards others, uplifting, building up, edifying, but not criticizing and condemning. Right, instead of looking at others, finding fault and criticizing, we should then drop to our knees in searching God to help us be the witness He wants us, ourselves to be, not pointing fingers at others.

Thats the point tho - "couldn't let it pass without comment". Comment, not criticize, or tear down, but loving, compassionate sharing of something that comes across not in the best witness for God.

Very good, would appreciate this kind of attitude seen in more of God's Children.

God Bless!!

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Warrior of God

And it hits me, that if we see what we think is sin in the leadership, then we have to counteract that by our own right actions. Rather than tear others down, we need to live right in our own lives. We worry that they are being a bad example, but are we looking to our own lives as to what kind of example WE are being? There are so many scriptures that tell us not to judge, that if we are judging, then we ARE being a bad example. I used to think there were situations where it was okay to in a public forum criticize what others are doing, as a group of people coming to a collective consensus on what a certain person is doing. But, now, it seems like we should leave that to the Godly people God has placed around them. I do not believe God is going to leave any person without those around them that they are called to be accountable to. And those people are called to discipline them if they find them in sin. It is not our place to sit out here casting stones or placing judgement. It is our job to pray that they repent and get right with God. And keep our opinions to ourselves.

If God is clearly and plainly telling us to say something, He will continue prodding us until we follow through. I did what I felt He told me, and that was the first instance I have ever done anything like that.

So, anyway, thanks for the input and for comfirming to me a long forgotten message of the church. We seem to have a current bunch who has fallen prey to judging others...and Jesus plainly said not to do this. I find so many people get in these throwing stone and mud slinging bashes. . . .Not good or Godly.

Well, I pray that the church will soon come to the church without spot or wrinkle. It is not only sin among us that points to this need, it is the judging we do (another sin) when a brother or sister is caught sinning. Jesus said the tares would have to stay among us, so as not to uproot the wheat. So no matter how much I wish to uproot the tares, I guess I have to leave this entire business to God. HE will seperate the sheep from the goats at the great White Throne judgement.

~JeriRose~

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24 But let him who glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 9:24)

The post I thought I never posted is the above post. Missed that somehow. Glad it posted.

~JeriRose~

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24 But let him who glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 9:24)

Regardless of the situation, God will guide us in how to approach them. In some, it will be thinking and operating different, in others, approaching those doing wrong.

One reason God tells us to remove the beam out of our own eye before trying to remove a speck out of another's is, man has a tendancy to want to become God and judge others, forgetting we have our own faults we should be working on instead to change.

Plus, your example of the "wheat and tares" is also a good one. Let us not unintentionally hurt the rest of the "Body" by coming down on particular aspects too strongly. My understanding is, to share what is not Biblically Doctrinal when necessary, while not condemning the person sharing it.

Well, I would suggest prayers for the "Body" to come to such an understanding and re-realize we have a God that will handle the tough things rightceously that we cannot.

God Bless!!

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Warrior of God